Tr--how It Should Have Been Done

[SardaofChaos]

/notsigned

you are absolutely correct. TRing is cumbersome, and to the average player, annoying/boring/unappealing. I myself only have a TR and a half (one capped TR, a *different* TR still leveling). I take my time, play them when I feel like it, and not worry too much about capping ASAP. that's the only way I can make it palatable.

Sure, the bonuses are not that great (to some). Sure, the increase in power is marginal (it seems).
Sure, you can make it easier, more accessible.

But why should you? as you yourself pointed out, this is for elitists. powergamers. BotB. in other words, those who play so much, they don't have what to do anymore, except TRing. I have yet to hear complaints from the completionists about the amount of grinding. the ones who are complaining are those who don't want to do it. guess what? don't. you want to experience every character class and build in the game? go for it. you don't need to TR for that. you want to level to 20 all over again? go for it. you don't need to TR for that.

people who TR do it for various reasons. but whatever the reasons are, they know what's coming - 3.1mil xp for first TR, 4.3mil xp for second+. you get some benefits, you get your gear, you get to grind. that's the deal.

there is no "loss" of game experience for not TRing. there is no reason everyone should have a chance at completionist. let's face it. except for a select few, you're not seeing eSoS, epic marilith chains, and epic spell storing rings on every third toon you come across. why should everyone be 5xTR?

The reason powergamers are the main group that is doing TRs is because it's such a grind. I agree that the rewards really aren't worth another million xp for each of the first two TRs, and completionist is such a joke for the amount of effort that needs to be put in it. It's not even bragging rights like the title is, because who's going to go look at your MyDDO, regardless of whether or not it even updated in the past year. Now, I can still see there being some curve, but maybe they should rethink exactly how it is applied. Maybe just add x to level 2, 2x to 3, 3x to 4, and so on where x is some constant.

Of course, in a year or so after they've added a couple more content packs it won't be as much of a problem, since they said they're done with <12 for now.

[TheBroken_JPK]

Working on a TR right now. I thought it would be fun, but its really making the game get old fast. I find myself too often rushing through, not getting to know people, grouping with other unfriendly TRs that don't say a word, getting too aggravated with all the newbs, and other things that make this more of a mindless job than a fun past time. I feel like I'm now "that guy". The jerk that doesn't speak, zergs ahead of everyone, and then disbands. Not the person I want to be.

edit: I'm not saying this is anyone's fault but my own. I'm not advocating for any changes to the TR system. I think the XP grind is fair, since you get some sweet loot at lower level(well sweet loot that is 3 years old all the new sweet loot is 20) Just giving my opinion that TR is not for everyone.

[Aelonwy]

I won't support reducing the overall xp required to TR, but redistributing the required xp that is something with which i can agree. For the record I believe that tomes are raid loot and as such should not disappear when you TR. Finally, I think it would also be a good thing if some of the passive past life feats were rethought. Some are worthwhile others not at all, but that is a discussion for another thread entirely.

[furbyoats]

first off...NO, the TR process is long a greuling...and it should be

it needs to be hard, it needs to be difficult...and honestly i would rather you have to grind out epic tokens to TR rather than buy it from the ddo store...

why? because when you see wings by someone's name, its supposed to mean something...if it is available to anyone who played the game then whats even the point of tr'ing

elitist? yes...isnt that the point?

listen...when i started playing and learned what a tr was (eventually), i started looking out for them in my groups and (og) they were generally more knowledgeable players who sped the runs up and you knew they could handle themselves...

of course since then there has been an increase of the sub-par players tr'ing...and thats lovely and all, but when you see someone cap a toon without planning the build, then tr'ing and trying to cap (again) without planning it, it makes you want to facepalm...and using that as an example, i wouldnt want it to be dumbed down.

it needs to be painful, its a mark of honor...you EARN it.

and as far as the extra build points and feats not being worth anything...i suggest you plan your build out before you do ANYTHING... my main is a caster...the wiz past life feats (both active and passive) are absolutely stunning...and definitely worth the trouble.

anyway, thats my rant...

if you dont want to grind, dont tr

[SardaofChaos]

I was under the impression that the sheer amount of time you have to invest is more than enough to compensate for the slight rewards. If you disagree with that then you're automatically sticking TRs firmly into the realm of powergamers for anyone who wants to take a char through more than 1, maybe 2 lives. Epic and raid loot being nigh impossible to get for casual gamers should be more than enough.

[QuantumFX]

TRing is that bad until you hit the 15+ mark. The dearth of quests to do in comparison to the vast variety one can do at the lower levels is quite evident and is one of the main reasons I personally paused in my double TR exp. Being forced to hold lvls or grinding out all the slayers are not particularly fun in my book.


A simple thing would be a redistribution of the exp needed per lvl. Rather than just making it an incremental % increase (which puts stress on the higher lvls exp more than the earlier ones(ironically where there is a lack of quests to embark on)) a straight linear increase that equals the same amount would work better.

However, a great increase to the number of higher lvl quests would also work to making the grind much more bearable.

+Rep for you for saving me time by writing what I was going to say.

[furbyoats]

I was under the impression that the sheer amount of time you have to invest is more than enough to compensate for the slight rewards.

again, its OPTIONAL

you do NOT need a 36 point build to run end game content...

for some of us who want to absolutely optimize our toons, its just another grind...

you want the staff of the petitioner? you want the litany of the dead? you want an epic sos? guess what...its a grind

a tr is a lot of time...but its not like this is a surprise...

build a toon properly and youll be fine endgame without the extra 2 or 4 build points

again, its OPTIONAL...you know what it entails, you know what youre getting into

if you dont want to do it, stay out of the process and grind something else

you want everything dumbed down and simplified...then tr and end game content is not for you

[Astraghal]

If everyone had an Epic SoS, would it be as special?

TR'ing say a Fighter would give you (assuming build points put into STR) +2 to hit, +1 to damage and +2 to combat feat DC's.

ESoS gives so many orders of magnitude more to a build, that it's not even comparable.

Gear gives a build way more than TR'ing does, the only reason to TR would be if you already had all the best gear.

Most people just TR for the wings.

[furbyoats]

Suggestion

1. Build more L15+ content.

i looooove this idea... new high end content that isnt just some low level **** on epic... i really really think that this should be the next addition the put into the game.

[SardaofChaos]

again, its OPTIONAL

you do NOT need a 36 point build to run end game content...

for some of us who want to absolutely optimize our toons, its just another grind...

you want the staff of the petitioner? you want the litany of the dead? you want an epic sos? guess what...its a grind

a tr is a lot of time...but its not like this is a surprise...

build a toon properly and youll be fine endgame without the extra 2 or 4 build points

again, its OPTIONAL...you know what it entails, you know what youre getting into

if you dont want to do it, stay out of the process and grind something else

you want everything dumbed down and simplified...then tr and end game content is not for you

See but that's the thing: nobody said it was required. Nobody does it just for the build points or solely because they can grab some healing amp or extra unarmed damage. They do it because it's there. But the majority of people who don't have as much time to play don't do it because it's a long hard unnecessary grind. Yes, the entire thing is unnecessary as well, but that is nowhere within 15 miles of the point. Nobody wants the easy button applied to TRs. In fact, the only way to do that would be to make it take less xp than a normal run.
Going to respond to this line in particular:

if you dont want to do it, stay out of the process and grind something else

I hope you're joking. I don't want to go do some grind, so I should go do some other grind? Simply because one grind has better rewards doesn't make it any better, but at least raid loot almost all drops every 20th. That is a concession to the grind that is raiding. Lessening the severe curve that TRs have would be a concession to the grind that is TRing. Yes, they're adding more content but it's not there at the moment and may take months to a year for there to be as much high level content as there is low level content. Honestly it would have been better for them to wait until there was more xp to be had in order to introduce TR, and just heave out LR and GR in the interim.

Tl;dr: The small buffs you get as a result of rerunning a char instead of leaving it at high level to participate in epics or developing altitis are barely a reward for the time you put in doing all that again. Having an additional 2.5 million to go through is overkill.

[furbyoats]

Having an additional 2.5 million to go through is overkill.

its rough, of course... more high end content would help and i feel that in update 7 and 8 they introduced content to help push through that rough spot around lvl 14. in end game its all a grind isnt it?

if you dont want to grind anything there are other classes to build, you can cross class...if you just want to replay the game make a new toon... if the benefits arent as good as you want them to be then dont tr... i really dont see what the issue is.

if you dont want to grind it out then dont do it...its pretty straight-forward

[pjw]

it needs to be hard, it needs to be difficult...

But it is not; it is merely boring. That is my take on it. 10xMonastery of the Scorpion is not hard, difficult or in any way an achievement.

More high level content would make the grind more fun.

and honestly i would rather you have to grind out epic tokens to TR rather than buy it from the ddo store...

The way epic quests are now, it it just another form of grind. It would be nice to have epics that were a challenge for reasons other than ridiculous HP and resists.

why? because when you see wings by someone's name, its supposed to mean something...if it is available to anyone who played the game then whats even the point of tr'ing

...

elitist? yes...isnt that the point?

Well, it is available to anyone now. And it's not 'elitist'. What it selects for are those people who can tolerate mind-numbingly repetitious grind.

In my opinion it is all down to the scaled XP at high levels combined with the small number of high level quests. That is what stops me from TR-ing; I get bored very easily. I have no problem with having to get 4.3M XP so long as I can do it by doing all quests at most 4 times.

[RJBsComputer]

I see both sides of the coin in this one. Yes it is a grind to get to the completionist. However, by asking for more xp, it forces us players to use all the quests and wildrness areas we ingored on the way up the first time. But when you make the bulk of the xp you need to earn in the area of the game where there is not much, that makes for a pain in the neck. The xp requirement must reflect the xp you can find in the game without ransacking the xp you can earn.

Here is a shot out of left field:

Why not have it set up that you have to earn the xp from running every quest's hardness level 5 times. Then say wildrness areas you have to do at less half the slayers. This way, you can have the other half of the slayers to make up for quests you chose not to run.

But like I said, out of left field idea. Until we get more high level content, finishing the TR run is going to be a hard grind.

[Theolin]

The reason I consider TRing is for the added benefit, not bragging rights not just because, not anything else,
to me its strictly a cost benefit of what I get for the effort required to get there.


Saying that, for me since I like to play a wiz, and repeating wiz for each life

TR1 mostly worth the effort
TR2 not really worth it.. did I do it yes, do I like it NO, I am almost there it has taken me 3 months, I am a little slow, don't always get to play .....
TR3 ... ummm NO


Now I asked myself ... hmm what about the other passive past life feats,
Barb for HPs, FVs for more spell pen, Pali for healin amp, cleric/bard/sorc for +1 to a DC, ... & such

Now will I do those oOH HECK NO... its just not worth the effort, would I like them to be OH YES I would absolutely appreciate it if those were worth the effort.



To me the question is do enough people think the effort is worth the reward, from what I have seen in this thread very few do, even those who like it think its a grind, they even call it a grind, amazing, I think some people like grind, I just want the effort to equal the reward.

In that vein, a few of things
1. Spread out the xp increase over all the levels: ie make it linear
2. Make it slightly less of an xp burden, maybe TR1 @ 1.5x & TR2+ @ 2x
3. Please add some more content at 15+ ... I don't want to run each quest 10 times

Do all of them and I will consider running a few extra lives for some extra bonus power for my wiz, right now there is no way I will, that means I wont be getting my heart from the store


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removed didn't want to derail

[~jradnut]

Seems a common theme to this thread is grind/boring. I know some of it is even w/o TR'ing.

Let me just add that many people in the armed services wish they were Green Beret. Now should they make Green Beret qualification easier? So maybe it wouldn't be such a grind? Now everybody wears a beret and if a green beret stood amongst them, who would notice?

Part of the beauty I find when running with TR's, and doesn't happen all the time, is when nobody HAS to speak and whole quest runs like a well oiled machine. And at the end, no need to say anything, just a silent acknowledgement that, "Ya, lol, we ROCKED!"

When you run into the mobs, no need to worry about who takes down what, and everybody goes to a seperate mob for the beat-down.

I live for those groups and the grind has always been all the stuff that comes between those times.

Just my 2 sheckles


Edit: If you have the interest and the time for it, be a Green Beret. If not, be a cook. Even Heros need to eat.

[Templarion]

The funny thing about TRing is that the rewards of TRing are not overwhelmingly gamebreaking.

Actually. It is.

TRs themselves are bringing the game down to it knees. TRs are soloing the content from the very beginning of the game to the very last raid! Now think about it what happens when several TRs are in the same party. Some very wise man said that the whole concept of TRs should have never been done - and I agree with him.

MMO FACT: It is much easier and generally accepted that challenge is created by endurance. Every MMO has grind because of that fact. If there was too much challenge people would yell about how impossible the game is and not every single ****** could be able to complete it. Now, at least, everyone knows they are theoretically capable to do it ... but doing the task is another thing than saying it. It would be nice to know which one actually causes more "fan aggro": challenge or grind. Anyway...

If you don't have the balls to take the grind, leave the hall!


PS. Everyone of us has weak moments. If this is one of yours, it's ok.
PPS. Now after this chit-chat... let's go break the game together, shall we?

[furbyoats]

But it is not; it is merely boring. That is my take on it. 10xMonastery of the Scorpion is not hard, difficult or in any way an achievement.

More high level content would make the grind more fun.



The way epic quests are now, it it just another form of grind. It would be nice to have epics that were a challenge for reasons other than ridiculous HP and resists.



Well, it is available to anyone now. And it's not 'elitist'. What it selects for are those people who can tolerate mind-numbingly repetitious grind.

In my opinion it is all down to the scaled XP at high levels combined with the small number of high level quests. That is what stops me from TR-ing; I get bored very easily. I have no problem with having to get 4.3M XP so long as I can do it by doing all quests at most 4 times.

then dont tr...

[pjw]

then dont tr...

There is that; but, I would like to TR (I like the idea of playing my favourite character from L1 again). My expectation is that at the L17+ range I will just get bored.

What I would like is the same level of variability in quests in that level range as there is in the 4-14 range. Or an even distribution of XP requirements so that I spend less time at the high end where there are so few quests.

I' NOT asking for it to be easier; just much less boring.

[flynnjsw]

Seems a common theme to this thread is grind/boring. I know some of it is even w/o TR'ing.

Let me just add that many people in the armed services wish they were Green Beret. Now should they make Green Beret qualification easier? So maybe it wouldn't be such a grind? Now everybody wears a beret and if a green beret stood amongst them, who would notice?

Part of the beauty I find when running with TR's, and doesn't happen all the time, is when nobody HAS to speak and whole quest runs like a well oiled machine. And at the end, no need to say anything, just a silent acknowledgement that, "Ya, lol, we ROCKED!"

When you run into the mobs, no need to worry about who takes down what, and everybody goes to a seperate mob for the beat-down.

I live for those groups and the grind has always been all the stuff that comes between those times.

Just my 2 sheckles


Edit: If you have the interest and the time for it, be a Green Beret. If not, be a cook. Even Heros need to eat.

^^^ This. A million times this.

[Templarion]

I' NOT asking for it to be easier; just much less boring.

Challenge is challenge. Either you overcome it you get beaten down by it. Recommend reading my comment above about MMO fact, don't like repeating myself.