Exploiter(ish) skill question

[Schmoe]

Hi all. I'm planning on TR'ing my current human ranger/fighter into a human ranger/fighter multiclass with a single splash level of rogue. It seems that people say you can get full UMD and trap skills with a single rogue level, but my question is how? Do people typically start with higher than an 8 int to be able to get more than just DD/Search/UMD? Or do you forgo all other skills? Or do you need fewer than max ranks on some of these? I'm addicted to having good Spot/Hide/Move Silently/Balance skills, and I'm wondering if I need to sacrifice those in order to get rogue skills.

Any and all input is more than welcome.

[Eladiun]

On my TR Exploiter, I started with a base Int of 12 since I needed 13 for CE anyway. I ate a +2 tome at 7 but you are right there are sacrifices. I had 7 points on Ranger Levels before 7 and 8 after. I maxed DD, Search, UMD, Intim then spread the rest around in Balance, Open Lock, etc. You don't need to max OL. Maxing all the skills mentioned would cost to much intel or require more rogue levels.

[Schmoe]

Thanks Eladiun. Part of the reason I ask is because I had originally planned for a 12/8 DPS-focused split, but have received some advice to splash rogue for UMD and trap skills. But if I'm maintaining a DPS-focused build (which I think I want to do), I'm going with 18 strength/16 con, which doesn't leave many points for the rest of my stats, and I also don't care about CE. And without the int to get the skill points, it seems the trade-off may just not be worth it.

[OldCoaly]

... people say you can get full UMD and trap skills with a single rogue level, but my question is how? Do people typically start with higher than an 8 int to be able to get more than just DD/Search/UMD? Or do you forgo all other skills? Or do you need fewer than max ranks on some of these? I'm addicted to having good Spot/Hide/Move Silently/Balance skills, and I'm wondering if I need to sacrifice those in order to get rogue skills.

Any and all input is more than welcome.

I can certainly understand being addicted to Spot - being able to see the agro BEFORE you run past it is very helpful and find the thought dumping Spot to be very distasteful, even if I intended to dump Rogue functions.

What are your goals? Do you want to be able to do traps on Epic? How high must Hide, Move Silently, and Balance be in order to be relevant at whatever point will be "the end" for this build?

I put quotes around "the end" because you say you're TRing into it. If you plan to TR after this upcoming build, will you stay at 20 for any significant amount of time? If you're going to TR again as soon as possible, building for great performance at level 18 makes a lot more sense than creating something that doesn't blossom until 20.

The steps that are necessary to max the skills you're seeking aren't a secret or rocket science. Put enough points into INT and interleave your fighter levels a little so that you end up the ranks you need when you get to your ending level.

If you know your target skill values, start with that number and begin subtracting from it the values that you can reasonably provide outside of skill ranks to reveal the gap that you must cover. For example, in order to find the trap panels in Epic Party Crashers, you must have a Search of 52. 51 won't reveal them, and 53 is wasted.

52 search minus
15 item (37 left)
4 Greater Heroism (33)
2 Head of Good Fortune (31)
6 Tier-3 INT skills green steel item (25)
3 +INT stat bonus from +6int item (22)

With that gear (not quickly gathered, but possible for a level 20 considering TR), you'd need to make up a gap of 22 skill points - easily done just by maxing ranks. You wouldn't even have to max ranks if you put some enhancement points into Search.

Of course, designing a build that just barely does what you want with no headroom at all puts you in a tough spot in the event that the Devs make anything you want to do "harder". Not likely to happen but worth mentioning.

Maxing any stat at character creation is expensive - are those 6 build points that you put into STR worth the +1 to-hit and damage that they bring? For some people they are.


One level of Rogue and a bunch of Ranger makes maxing a lot of trap skills easier. You can do a lot with 1-Rog/12-Ranger, a starting INT of 10 and a +2 tome at level 7 and a willingness to swap gear whenever you want to do some Rogue-ery. With 12 levels of Ranger, you have access to Wild Instincts which makes maxing out Spot pretty unnecessary.


If you want to max the skills that are NOT needed for trap functions (Balance, Hide, Move Silently), you will have to invest enough build points into INT.

[Schmoe]

Thanks OldCoaly. Replies are below.

I can certainly understand being addicted to Spot - being able to see the agro BEFORE you run past it is very helpful and find the thought dumping Spot to be very distasteful, even if I intended to dump Rogue functions.

What are your goals? Do you want to be able to do traps on Epic? How high must Hide, Move Silently, and Balance be in order to be relevant at whatever point will be "the end" for this build?

My goal, truthfully, is to be able to do better DPS while retaining the current versatility (ranger 14/fighter 6 atm), and to "fix" my first ever character that grew organically from when I started the game. I'm hoping to pick up Stunning Blow with some feat swaps and get more build points (28 points right now) and rearrange those build points. The question about rogue skills was brought up by someone else, and I'm curious as to how feasible it really is.

So, I guess I don't have any target numbers in mind, I just want to make sure my skills are still relevant at end game.

I put quotes around "the end" because you say you're TRing into it. If you plan to TR after this upcoming build, will you stay at 20 for any significant amount of time? If you're going to TR again as soon as possible, building for great performance at level 18 makes a lot more sense than creating something that doesn't blossom until 20.

I don't plan on TRing again. This is a one time deal to fix some fundamental build flaws.

The steps that are necessary to max the skills you're seeking aren't a secret or rocket science. Put enough points into INT and interleave your fighter levels a little so that you end up the ranks you need when you get to your ending level.

If you know your target skill values, start with that number and begin subtracting from it the values that you can reasonably provide outside of skill ranks to reveal the gap that you must cover. For example, in order to find the trap panels in Epic Party Crashers, you must have a Search of 52. 51 won't reveal them, and 53 is wasted.

52 search minus
15 item (37 left)
4 Greater Heroism (33)
2 Head of Good Fortune (31)
6 Tier-3 INT skills green steel item (25)
3 +INT stat bonus from +6int item (22)

With that gear (not quickly gathered, but possible for a level 20 considering TR), you'd need to make up a gap of 22 skill points - easily done just by maxing ranks. You wouldn't even have to max ranks if you put some enhancement points into Search.

Of course, designing a build that just barely does what you want with no headroom at all puts you in a tough spot in the event that the Devs make anything you want to do "harder". Not likely to happen but worth mentioning.

Maxing any stat at character creation is expensive - are those 6 build points that you put into STR worth the +1 to-hit and damage that they bring? For some people they are.

True, that stat is expensive. For my purposes, though, it's how I want the character to function.

One level of Rogue and a bunch of Ranger makes maxing a lot of trap skills easier. You can do a lot with 1-Rog/12-Ranger, a starting INT of 10 and a +2 tome at level 7 and a willingness to swap gear whenever you want to do some Rogue-ery. With 12 levels of Ranger, you have access to Wild Instincts which makes maxing out Spot pretty unnecessary.

I had forgotten about Wild Instincts. That could help. I'm beginning to think I want to go with 10 int and 8 wis, rather than vice versa.

If you want to max the skills that are NOT needed for trap functions (Balance, Hide, Move Silently), you will have to invest enough build points into INT.

I guess I don't need them maxed, I just want to make sure I have enough to be relevant. With those skills in particular, I find that many creatures even at end game, can still be countered with less than max ranks.

[elg582]

OK, the root problem is that ranger gets lots of skill points each level and search as a class skill and fighter doesn't; no amount of INT is going to make up for that.

[OldCoaly]

OK, the root problem is that ranger gets lots of skill points each level and search as a class skill and fighter doesn't; no amount of INT is going to make up for that.

By interleaving the Fighter levels with Ranger levels and budgeting your skill points properly, it's not difficult to make up for the number of skill points the Fighter class doesn't get.

If you take all your fighter levels together in one huge block, Rogue functions will suffer and might be unusably low at the end of six back-to-back levels fighter.

You could make those ranks up after the fighter levels, but that would result in being without rogue functions at some point in the middle of the leveling up sequence, which is when the ability to do your own traps makes a difference.

[OldCoaly]

My goal, truthfully, is to be able to do better DPS while retaining the current versatility (ranger 14/fighter 6 atm), and to "fix" my first ever character that grew organically from when I started the game. I'm hoping to pick up Stunning Blow with some feat swaps and get more build points (28 points right now) and rearrange those build points. The question about rogue skills was brought up by someone else, and I'm curious as to how feasible it really is.

So, I guess I don't have any target numbers in mind, I just want to make sure my skills are still relevant at end game.

I don't plan on TRing again. This is a one time deal to fix some fundamental build flaws.

I guess I don't need them maxed, I just want to make sure I have enough to be relevant. With those skills in particular, I find that many creatures even at end game, can still be countered with less than max ranks.

I strongly encourage you to do some diligence on where your numbers need to be in order to be relevant. It is necessary to not only have numbers in mind, but also to know that the numbers you have in mind are meaningful. You state that you do not plan to TR again - It makes sense to be certain what you have in mind will work.

As far as how feasible it is, there are quite a few builds published in the forums that leverage 1 level of Rogue to provide usable trap search and disable skills through the entire progression of the character. It's feasible within the constraints of 28 build points - having 34 with which to work gives you much more flexibility.


Attack Bonus - If you work to maximize your to-hit bonus, you increase the reliability of your attacks and this increases your DPS. Epic trash mob AC is allegedly somewhere in the low 50s, and Epic Wiz King seems to be the high water mark with an AC in the 70s. If you want to land hits on trash about half the time, you need to be able to get your bonus to-hit to the low 40s, and it would probably be good if your method was sustainable (in other words, not dependent on something like 20 second Fighter Attack Boost-2).

UMD - Max Ranks. Even with Maxed Ranks, you'll want more. Go look at the UMD check on popular items such as scrolls of Teleport and Raise Dead as well as Race and Alignment restricted gear, then figure out where your UMD will be when you want to start using those sorts of things.

Disable Device - Max Ranks in DD, use the best gear you can get, buff well, and you should be fine. You may not succeed on a 2, but as long as you don't critical fail on a 1, who cares (and you're not likely to crit fail on a 1 unless you're running elite content above your level, and that's not likely to happen on a TR).

Search - As stated above (and elsewhere in the forums, but I've tested this and 51 doesn't make it), for epic Party Crashers, you need a 52 Search. You don't need to max ranks in Search if you can hit your target in other ways (gear, enhancement points, etc.)

Spot - You don't need an Epic Spot - everyone knows where the trap panels are. With good gear, Wild Instincts, and a GH buff, it's easy to get your Spot into the 40s. Once you have access to Wild Instincts, you can afford to stop investing in Spot. In fact, you could pump Spot via Enhancement points and stop investing in it before you get Wild Instincts, then re-spec your enhancements afterward if you want to be REALLY tight with the skill points.

Open Lock is one you can neglect pretty heavily. Four points at start, then good gear and tools as you level up. Locks don't ever blow up if you roll a 1. Chances are also good that there will be an arcane in your groups that will wait to see you start picking the lock, but won't wait for you to finish your first attempt before they cast Knock.


That leaves the Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Stunning Blow.


Balance - I have no idea beyond "a bunch". From the wiki: Increases the speed with which you get up from a prone position after succumbing to one of the many skills or spells that inflict it, which tend to require a reflex save. (This includes trip, a giants pound special, the grease spell, etc.) I haven't seen anyone document the performance of Balance using objective metrics.

Move Silently and Hide. I would urge you to seriously consider the utility of these two skills in the context of a TR leveling up. How often will your group tolerate you sneaking around? You'll be leveling up a much stronger and better geared character as well - will you NEED to sneak around?



I would think you'd want Stunning Blow to be as high as possible. I'm no expert on where this needs to be at any level to be relevant. It would be great if someone could chime in with that information, but if we work on the premise that you'll max your STR, the only opportunity for discretion in your Stunning Blow DC is through the selection of Fighter enhancements and the use of weapons with a Stunning bonus.

From the wiki on Stunning Blow: "When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim makes a Fortitude saving throw, whose base DC is 10 + Strength modifier (and may be increased by enhancements and weighted weapons). A failure dazes the victim for 6 seconds."

18 STR, 5 level ups, 1 Human Adapability, a +6 item, +2 exceptional, +2 Fighter STR enhancements, +2 Arcane Rage, and +2 Ram's has you ending up with STR:38, which is a +14 STR modifier. This does not include Double Secret Ninja Turbo Madstone, but it should be reasonably achievable and sustainable.

Your Stunning Blow DC could be 10 + 14 + 3 (Fighter Stunning Blow Enhancements) + 10 (Stunning +10 weapon) = 37.

***I'm not certain that I have accounted for everything relevant in this calculation.***

Whether or not this is enough to make Stunning Blow work reliably when you expect it to work should determine whether or not you invest in Stunning Blow at all.

Stunning Blow is a Fort save - it should be possible to find out about what the Fort saves are for typical mobs at most levels, and it's possible to calculate what your Stunning Blow DC would be at any level in your character's progression. If you can get a usable Stunning Blow DC sooner than level 18, it would be good to know what is the earliest level you could reliably land Stunning Blow and plan to take it then.


I do know that a Human 12-Ranger/7-Fighter/1-Rogue cannot have as much STR as a HOrc Barbarian-20, and therefore cannot have the highest possible Stunning Blow DC.


Here's an example build summary I submit as a proof of concept (level progression, feats, and enhancements have been intentionally omitted). 13 Dex at start so that you can take Dodge at level 1. I prefer to start with 11 Wisdom so that when a +2 Wisdom tome is consumed, no item need be equipped or inventory slot tied up in order to cast any Ranger spells.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(7 Fighter \ 1 Rogue \ 12 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 354
Spell Points: 156 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 16
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    28
Dexterity            13                    18
Constitution         15                    18
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom               11                    13
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                    12
Bluff                -1                     1
Concentration         2                     5
Diplomacy            -1                     1
Disable Device        4                    25
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                  0                     1
Hide                  4                     8
Intimidate           -1                     1
Jump                  8                    14
Listen                0                     1
Move Silently         5                     8
Open Lock             5                     9
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                4                    23
Spot                  4                    23
Swim                  4                     9
Tumble                2                     5
Use Magic Device      3                    23

[OldCoaly]

... My light monk runs in water stance while in stunning mode and has a 45 dc on stunning fist and hits more stuns than not in epics.

On my old fighter/monk I had both feats. Was able to get Stunning Fist to 49 dc self buffed and stun blow around 51 self buffed. It works like a charm when you can cycle stun fist, stun blow, stun fist, stun fist, stun blow...

It looks as though your target DC should be in the high 40s for Epic, and that a DC of 38 should be somewhat useful for non-epic content that you're likely to run as a level 20 toon.


Your stated objective is to not TR again, which implies that you'll be spending a fair amount of time at 20, and that implies running Epic content.

[elg582]

By interleaving the Fighter levels with Ranger levels and budgeting your skill points properly, it's not difficult to make up for the number of skill points the Fighter class doesn't get.

If you take all your fighter levels together in one huge block, Rogue functions will suffer and might be unusably low at the end of six back-to-back levels fighter.

You could make those ranks up after the fighter levels, but that would result in being without rogue functions at some point in the middle of the leveling up sequence, which is when the ability to do your own traps makes a difference.

Yea, but then you're delaying your TWF sequence, and doing without DPS in mid-levels, which has always been worse, IMO.

[OldCoaly]

Yea, but then you're delaying your TWF sequence, and doing without DPS in mid-levels

Bah. You're not doing without DPS - you're missing out on SOME DPS. It's not as though you won't be able eliminate mobs.


Take Tempest 1 at 8 and stick with Two-Handers until then or even a little later.

You'll hit much more often (more DPS) and do more damage per hit as well compared to starting to use two weapons at level 3 (which is when you'd get the first TWF feat in the TWF sequence if you didn't interleave Fighter at all).

Sure, you'll do somewhat less DPS if you delay the TWF sequence. 20% less for each feat delayed and 10% for each tier of Tempest, assuming you would have hit on every one of those off hand procs anyway.


The progression I would follow is:

1-Rog
2-Ftr (access to Fighter Toughness enhancements and a hole in the Skill Points for the Ranger levels to fill)
3-8 Ranger (Tempest-1, Many Shot, ITWF as soon as possible)
9 Ftr (Provide a hole for Skill Points)
10-12 Ranger (Evasion! at 12)
13-16 Fighter (Kensei-1)
17-18 Ranger (GTWF @17 - Make up the Skill Points - mostly UMD)
19 Fighter (another hole for Ranger Skill Point)
20 Ranger (Tempest-2)

Tempest-1 taken 2 levels "late" in exchange for Rogue skills and a Class Toughness enhancement.

GTWF delayed to level 17 instead of 12. For those 5 levels you lose 30% likelihood of having an off-hand attack occur (20% from no GTWF and 10% from no Tempest-2). Not 30% DPS. 30% of one off hand attack. Tempest-2 also reduces attack penalty for TWF by 1, which might be about a 5% DPS increase, but that's offset by the DPS bonuses fighter STR enhancements and Kensei.

Of course, that's some percentage less than the build that doesn't delay Prestige Enhancements or Granted Feats, not necessarily less than the previous life.

The levels of Fighter do add value as they are taken - it's not as though you'd be mixing in 6 or 7 levels of "Fuel Dispense Technician" or "Fingernail Enhancement Specialist". Kensei-1 adds +3 to-hit (15% of 20) for BOTH hands and +4 damage to each hand as well.

I'm also keeping in mind that the OP has said they do not intend to TR again, which I interpret as free reign to "build for 20" instead of worrying about optimal DPS at every level between 1 and 20.


If the OP (or anyone) is concerned about it, I think any of the DPS calculators could be used to see what the actual DPS difference would be at any given level, and whether or not it is worth trading DPS during levels that go by quickly anyway for relevant Rogue skills on the way to and at 20.

To be sure, it would be a hassle, since you'd need to account for typical mob AC and your to-hit bonus (as modified by several pieces of gear) and these values would change each level.

which has always been worse, IMO.

Worse than what?

Obviously, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

If you want to keep the skills relevant while keeping the investment into INT to a minimum, some compromise must be made.

[ddobard1]

True Reincarnating your Human grants you 34 build points. For esteeming the poor but honest Evil-eradicators of Stormreach, the Hero crushes to 28 build points.

I understood from above the ultimate goal is Ranger 13/Fighter 6/Rogue 1. Also the Hero desires 18 Strength/16 Constitution.

If the Hero wants to master DD/Search/UMD/OL+Spot/Hide/Move Silently/Balance, then maxing out all of them is the way to pave. Gear, Wild Instincts treat them as bonuses not as backups, because the Hero pushes our well-wishers into the majesty. For the Flame... sorry... Exploiters!

Skill Points: 32 (1st)+2*6 (2nd-7th)+7*13 (8th-20th) To the countryside! Make Intelligence=10 for 8 Skills.

Feat Stunning Blow begs for a Weighted weapon, no mercy here.

Steal Rogue at 1, hang on the next 6 levels with 4 bonus Feats by pumping up Rogue's vital functions (BTW aren't Artificers Eberron-lore? ), by sleight of hand grab an Intelligence +2 Tome, and Ranger full steam ahead to Epic...20