My thoughts on 1 Arcane slot shroud groups.

[netops]

I just wanted to air my thoughts on single arcane slot shroud groups, that seem to have become increasingly popular over the festive period.

As a lvl 20 Sorcerer, with limited opportunity for dedicated play I frequently find it difficult to find a PUG shroud group. When the trend was to limit the group to 2 casters it was hard enough (spots usually filled within the first 4 joiners). The trend to go for a single arcane makes it nigh on impossible.

On my last run I joined a shroud group initiated by a lvl 15 character and due to the nature of people wanting an easy ride it took a while to fill. In fact it had to disband and reform after a couple dropped shortly after entering, and took about 45 mins to get going. The group ended up with 3 or 4 arcanes (one of which was a shroud newbie) and a couple of healers. The DPS was far from fantastic either. The average level was 17 with 1 level 20 and 1 level 15.

Given the hard-line stance I have seen by many with regard to group composition my assumptions were that we would fail at Part 4, given the low levels and lack of 9 DPS focused toons.

I won’t say the run was flawless, the main Tank when down a couple of times and the level 15 was taken out in Pt 4, but overall the run was smooth and didn’t suffer any delays.

My point being please consider 2 (or possible 3 arcanes) in your groups. If the my perceived trend of moving to 1 arcane becomes the norm, then the logical conclusion is that arcanes will be forced to lead shroud groups in order to ensure they get a spot.

I enjoy being a party member not a party leader, I’m in charge all day, I want a break from it when I play a game. However it looks like I may be forced to lead a party just to get a slot. The question I think that sums up how I feel is:

Are you more likely to have a shroud run fail due to taking 2-3 arcanes or due to having a reluctant/inexperienced/poor leader?

[Burtle]

It mostly seems to come down to all ppl want in shroud anymore is DPS DPS DPS... kinda like the rumor that you dont' need a rogue in a shroud or Hound or anything else anymore..

Most others will tell you to make your own shroud group or something to that nature... Me on the other hand... well I tend to allow up to 2 due to the fact that it's more overkill than necessary and it's hard to babysit more than 2..

it's easier tho in all honesty when u can have 2 casters..one to keep party hasted and buffed while the other can run around in part 1 for trash mobs..and in part 2 for the crystal..

all in all..to each their own

[Oran_Lathor]

I agree that single-arcane shroud lfms are silly, but I spose that's a leader's discretion.

What I really want to know is... whaddya mean "main Tank" ?

[Sarisa]

My best runs were ones where the party leader just took the first 11 who applied. The most memorable was a 3 arcane 4 divine 2 bard run, that still managed to take Harry down in just a hair over 1 round (he was about 10% after the first round).

One of my worst runs was one where the leader insisted on a "perfect" group, took 25 minutes to fill, and where practically nobody could break DR/had high DPS weapons. It lasted well into round 3, and if it weren't for my torc/conc opp triggering a few times off of blades and trash, I would have had to drink a pot to heal through it.

I don't think many leaders realize just how much of a dent a good arcane unloading their SP into the BFD can be.

[rest]

More casters = more burst DPS if they all dump their mana. Which they should. No reason to hold back.

[k1ngp1n]

whaddya mean "main Tank" ?

I was wondering the same thing...

[redraider]

I thought lvl 20 Sorcs WERE DPS!

And yeah, main tank in shroud?

[herdisleah]

"One arcane" raid groups make me grumpy.

Part of me thinks its carryover from when newbie shroud groups took two or three casters, and at the same time people didn't have harry beaters or very good dps, and the arcanes are an easy target to blame this on. *sigh*

[rest]

More arcanes = more DPS. Mana dump ftw. Clerics should mana dump damage spells too.

[Quikster]

The main problem is many arcanes dont know how to make their presence felt.

Personally I dont care how many arcanes are in the group. Of course Ive also done hound with 0 clerics tod/vod without a wfd tank (gasp) and reaver without healers or arcanes (double gasp)

People get a recipe for success from someone and are very reluctant to vary it due to their inexperience and prejudices.

[Carpone]

Having run 42 elite Shrouds on my arcane, I can say without prejudice there's no need for more than one arcane in Shroud.

If you have problems finding a <insert name> raid, you always have the option to start your own.

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

First, I want to note that my responses below are to pugs I have encountered recently, this is not referring to guild or mostly channel runs.

With the poor leader type, I frequently see people pick up the slack and take care of things, so that's not really an issue.

I have noticed when I see the number of casters go from 2 to 3, it does usually concern me as in general it results in a lack of dps. Is it because those casters are not capable of doing damage? Not at all. In my experience, it has resuled in casters who assume others are doing what they should be doing and don't do it, and/or pike.

For example, I have had several recent incidents of this scenario where the party is repeatedly asking for rage and haste, in voice and party chat and not receiving this. (Yes I am well aware we can drink pots/hit a clickie, but is that really too much to ask when you have 3 casters and possibly a bard as well?) You'll have one caster who unloads there mana buffing useless buffs and then does nothing the rest of the quest but follow the group around (and yes haste can be lacking in this scenario too). Casters are not scouting ahead and clearing trash, portal keepers are coming out. Part 2 one caster goes to the crystal and several times I have seen them die from trash that wasnt cleared (and they seem to have lost their knowledge how to kill them on their own), or not be following hte pace of the party and therefore not destroying the crystal in time. Other casters stand by the party and do nothing. A caster can easily solo any of those bosses, but especially the elementals, but I dont see this getting done. Part 3 not usually an issue, although frequently casters do not know their puzzle. Part 4 , over use of dancing balls and from there on lack of offensive and/or debuffing spells, or cc like cloudkill. Part 5, here usually I see an unloading of mana for offensive spells but not always.

Anyways, that have been some of my recent experiences in pugs with 2-3 casters. Your mileage may vary.

[jwdaniels]

Lately, the only time I've seen shrouds fail is when the leader tries to form the perfect group. Just get yourself two clerics (second cleric optional, but mostly as part 4 lag insurance) and 10 other people. If you have to rely on some magic combo of classes and mass heal spams that someone told you will always work, you don't know the raid well enough to lead it. Put the solver away, click on a shroud lfm and pay close attention until you understand what's going on and why things work the way they work.

[Oran_Lathor]

While I agree with you, Carpone, having been the solo arcane in many elite shrouds as well, I think you're somewhat missing the point. Wasting time trying to fill so that you get an uber level 17 unequipped adventurer-build fighter over a (potentially geared out max level sorc or wiz) is just ridiculous.

I've been in many one-round 3-4 arcane shrouds, and one one-round 6 arcane shroud... The real problem, imo, is that in multi-caster groups, new casters (ie ones used to running with only one or two un-maxed casters) don't know to dump mana. If shrouds routinely took more arcanes, though, everyone would know to dump there mana as it would be the standard modus operandi.

[Crann]

Having run 42 elite Shrouds on my arcane, I can say without prejudice there's no need for more than one arcane in Shroud.

Definitely no need, probably even more so on Elite.

On a normal run, you don't even need one

Anyone who is willing to wait an extra 45 minutes to fill the perfect 1 arcane, 2 healer, 9 DPS party on normal.....to complete 10 minutes sooner....doesn't get it.

The raid itself is ridiculously easy on normal, especially when its typically populated by level 20 characters. Lack of knowledge of the raid itself usually causes more problems than the lack of a perfect party compostion.

[herdisleah]

I'm trying to think of a time when I'd turn maximize off in a shroud, and....I just can't. :P I can't.

[stoolcannon]

Are you more likely to have a shroud run fail due to taking 2-3 arcanes or due to having a reluctant/inexperienced/poor leader?

1 good arcane is all that's needed and that's another DPS slot. I'll take 2 when running shrouds if 2 apply quickly enough which is usually the case.

When I want shroud on my wizzy I run one myself.

[jwdaniels]

On another note I ran it with an almost complete group of first timers at level last night. I learned a lot about leading a shroud at level with new players.

Important to tell the casters/divines to have:

GH
Deathward
Blur
FOM
Jump

Of the 5 we had FOM between a FvS, Cleric and 2 sorcs.

Just curious, why Deathward? Why not resist poision and fire resistance, and what about True Seeing?

[Desteria]

Some of the fastest random shroud runs ive bene on have had 3+ arcanes. Shroud goes fast enough that you dont run out of SP when you cant run out of SP arcanes are DPS.

[BlackPlague]

I remember back in the day when the best group was 11 Rangers and 1 Bard. What the hell was my Halfling Pali/Barb supposed to do then?

/Serious

I pug shrouds quite often, and it is not every run that I find casters who are able to pull the weight of a melee. They'll either dump and run out of mana, or sit there waiting until the last few seconds, waiting for someone to call "Nuke EM NUKE EM WE GOT HIM, COME ON GUYS," and watch harry go up with a sliver of life and them with half a blue bar... So as far as being aware of the situation and being self aware in terms of mana conservation, I can understand why having 1 moar dps instead of an arcane is appealing.