Light monks need higher level light attacks

[Soleran]

So like a bunch of other people - your ignoring the fact that light and dark are not the same as what Pre's get.

Ninja 3 isnt even out yet, and once it comes out will have better high level abilities than now - and Ninja 2 gets 3d6 sneak damage on all attacks. AND they can bypass dr too with some level 8 named wraps - that just happen to mimic a level 18 shintao ability.

So what, when Ninja 3 comes out and they are doing 6d6 damage, or get some other dps ability - is the argument 'shintao can bypass dr - or be ninja, bypass dr AND do more damage?'

Logic doesnt have to be the enemy you know.

or are you making the case that a level 18 character taking 3 levels of prestige class bypassing 15 dr they can bypass anyway, is equal to what a dark monks gets at level 9 and DOESNT have to take 3 levels of pre to get, even though the level 9 dark monk ability can often do 2000 damage in one 'swing'?

Does 15 and 500-2000 look anywhere like the same numbers to you?

No really - you keep responding - so answer the question - are they equivalent numbers?

And keep in mind, the argument is light vs dark, not dark vs Shintao - because Ninja Spy gets more dps on top every single attack anyway.

I want to see a logical argument that can make the case 15 is balanced the same as 2000, or rather, I want to see someone arguing 'they are the same so stop posting' actually attempt to make a logical argument rather than a mishmash of statements that have no logical support as has been the case.

I addressed the fact that shintao gets a ranged stun (you ignored this point,) I addressed the ability to boost damage on mobs by 10% for the entire group (you ignored this point,) I addressed multiple light buffs in general (you ignored those points as well.)

You have nothing valid to discuss since you won't address the other benefits of light (shintao) monks, instead you use poor tactics to distract from facts to somehow boost your end agenda.

Utility/Group Buff/Heal = light
DPS = dark (no group buffs, no team interaction other then killing mobs)

See the difference, yeah light can still DPS well it just doesn't have the same tools that the one trick pony dark has.

[Riggs]

I addressed the fact that shintao gets a ranged stun (you ignored this point,) I addressed the ability to boost damage on mobs by 10% for the entire group (you ignored this point,) I addressed multiple light buffs in general (you ignored those points as well.)

You have nothing valid to discuss since you won't address the other benefits of light (shintao) monks, instead you use poor tactics to distract from facts to somehow boost your end agenda.

Utility/Group Buff/Heal = light
DPS = dark (no group buffs, no team interaction other then killing mobs)

See the difference, yeah light can still DPS well it just doesn't have the same tools that the one trick pony dark has.

The fact that you are not even seeing the difference of light vs dark, vs pre's, makes every word you print invalid.

You dont even notice your intermingling Shintao and light interchangeably whenever you feel like and somehow conveniently manage to ignore the fact that you keep comparing a level 18 pre ability to a level 9 non-pre ability and say they are balanced - like no one else will notice either.

Oh and dark gets buffs too, its called 'targets take more damage from energy types'. but you ignore that too, or that jade strike doesnt work on lawful outsiders - which is half the endgame bosses.

Saying 'light can dps' is a meaningless set of words. Wizards can pick up a dagger 'and do damage per second'. You seem to fail to be able to see a difference between 'higher dps', and 'lower dps'.

Because you know - different numbers actually mean different things - everything is not all the same. Grapes and watermelon are both fruits - doesnt mean they weigh the same - fyi.

I wont bother discussing Shintao because other than 1 single smite attack, which has a logn enough cooldown to be a novelty and nothing else - none of the Shintao attacks do damage, and esp dont do damage to raid bosses (added to the fact that healing curse doesnt work on most of the raid bosses either) - makes my argument anyway.

Since the argument is that light attacks dont do damage to evil targets - how many more ways would you like the issue spoon fed before you would be willing to accept something that is - you know - fact.

[Chai]

Thanks for making the point about people not being able to do math.

One attacks needs the other person to roll a 1 to fail, so the attack fails 95% of the time. (Monks have good saves since you dont seem to know that)

The other is a 100% attack as long as the attack hits, or 50% if a save, which is still 250x2 + 2 attacks at 50ish damage + 10%x2 of doublestrike for a possible 1200 damage or so even on a save, or a base damage of like 600 on the very first attack.

Saying one is equal to the other is on the same logical plane as "The Earth has the same mass as Jupiter - they are both planets so they are both equal."

Talking about stunning fist or stunning blow - since monks dont get tactics - even a 40 str monk is going to only have a 25 dc, 35 with stunning 10 wraps - so no good monk is going to fail that except on a 1. Same with stunning fist. **edit have to lower the numbers a bit for the will save vs kukan-do, but it still leaves a low chance for a monk to fail unless they completely gimped their wisdom - which is silly for a monk to do - and it still doesnt matter as its about light vs dark, not dark level 9 monk vs the level 18 Shintao pre.

I know math is hard, but really...try at least.

Really? The math arguement? Ok here goes.

My shintao monk has a straight 50 kukan-do stun DC. I am not even at full investment as of yet. I could get to 56 if I wanted. This also stuns at a pretty far distance. You want to step into the arena with me on an unbuffed dark monk and try that out? Forget about it. /points at his American flag themed zubaz pants.

This is also not that hard to get, as a complete pile on light monk with no cha investment whatsoever can have a 41 DC with stunning 10 wraps but otherwise butt naked riding a zebra, sans tactics.

Monks dont get tactics, but there are races who do.

DC is 10+monk level+stun effect on weapon+cha mod+tactics.

10 starting
20 monk levels
3 dwarf or WF
10 wraps
7 cha mod - thats 24 cha.
------------------------------------
straight fiddy DC

Yeap, the math argument. Keep going with that. Having this awesome of an autocrit stun is what shintao trades some outright DPS for, among other things.

I would suggest not accusing others of not understanding math until you have a good grasp on this classes abilities, and the math that affects them, yourself. Did you even bring up kukan-do once in your obviously biased analysis, or did you completely gloss over its awesomeness becase it doesnt support your stance on the issue?

[Soleran]

The fact that you are not even seeing the difference of light vs dark, vs pre's, makes every word you print invalid.

You dont even notice your intermingling Shintao and light interchangeably whenever you feel like and somehow conveniently manage to ignore the fact that you keep comparing a level 18 pre ability to a level 9 non-pre ability and say they are balanced - like no one else will notice either.

Oh and dark gets buffs too, its called 'targets take more damage from energy types'. but you ignore that too, or that jade strike doesnt work on lawful outsiders - which is half the endgame bosses.

Saying 'light can dps' is a meaningless set of words. Wizards can pick up a dagger 'and do damage per second'. You seem to fail to be able to see a difference between 'higher dps', and 'lower dps'.

Because you know - different numbers actually mean different things - everything is not all the same. Grapes and watermelon are both fruits - doesnt mean they weigh the same - fyi.

I wont bother discussing Shintao because other than 1 single smite attack, which has a logn enough cooldown to be a novelty and nothing else - none of the Shintao attacks do damage, and esp dont do damage to raid bosses (added to the fact that healing curse doesnt work on most of the raid bosses either) - makes my argument anyway.

Since the argument is that light attacks dont do damage to evil targets - how many more ways would you like the issue spoon fed before you would be willing to accept something that is - you know - fact.

Your reducing to the ridiculous doesn't help you at all, it does make you sound angry though.

Fact prior to nerf ToD was 44dps and couldn't be resisted, that is no longer the case by ANY stretch. Lets say dps average of 30 now. So a dark monk has 30 more dps then a light monk who can blur the party, save 25% mana on spells, heal(fol doesn't land on pitfiends but the finisher still works,) prevent stuns (ToD.)

Light and Dark monks have the same damage on fists 2d10 the dark monk sacrifices utility for roughly 30 more dps then a light monk.

The other buffs you mentioned for dark monks prevent the use of touch of death such as all consuming flame (boost fire damage by 10% for 30 seconds etc.)

Like I said light monks are fine as compared to dark monks. Now take your grapes comparison and wizard comparison and put away your condescending comments that really are useless, kinda like ignoring light monk functionality and asking for more dps to match a dark monk with none of the light functionality.

[Veriden]

Bah! Eff it all, make monks able to be both dark and light. True masters of an art know both sides of it's coin after all. Its not like pure monk will really be comparable to all the green steel wielding rogues and barbs.

Or hear this idea!

lvl 3 gain one path, lvl 15 gain access to the other path. Or make it a second capstone that allows you access to the other path you didn't originally take. After all it doesn't change the fact you only get access to one prestige class for monk either way.

[Riggs]

A warforged with 24 charisma? on a monk?

I guess if you dont like str/con/dex/wisdom.
You know - monk stats.

But I guess making up stuff that no one else uses makes sense....based on the level of 'debate'.

Enjoy that 16 sorc/2 pally/2 rogue build too - awesome saves bro.