Undead quest

[Ravingoofy]

Had a debate today about undead.

The question is are undead Immune it sneak attack or do they have a enough fort to always save. If that is the case than can an Opportunist sneak attack them?

I was trying to find facts on this matter so if you have any that would be helpful.

[LunaCee]

can an Opportunist sneak attack them?

Not heard any explosions of joy from the rogue community about being able to finally do something about undead with SA. So I'm thinking they are essentially 100% immune to criticals and SA damage still.

[Spoprockel]

If i remember correctly they are immune to sneak attacks, but with opportunist you can get a crit through their 100% fort

[bryanmeerkat]

In pnp they should be completly immune to crits . Guess it will depend on if they cut corners when programing the undead and just gave them 100% fort or made them immune to criticals

[donfilibuster]

Yep, undead are meant to be immune to crits.
Opportunist allows to overcome 10% fort, so not sure if it applies to undead.

[katana_one]

In PnP, undead, constructs, plants and oozes are immune to crits and sneak attack damage (lack of vital organs). No Fortification needed; they're just flat out immune.

I would hope they carried that over to DDO. Of course, I'm not a game developer, and they might have "cheated" and used 100% Fort to simulate that immunity, rather than code it separately. *shrug*

Anyhoo, point being that in PnP at least, 100% Fortification = Immune to Crits, but Immune to Crits =/= 100% Fortification.

[benneburg]

With Oppotunist you can crit undead, elementals, contructs and all that hocus pocus. Precision allow you to crit them too, but the loss of damage for all other hits is not worth it. Never seen any sneak attack damage go through when testing both those feats.


benne^

[Gorby]

I know it allows you to crit constructs because of the training dummy but wasn't 100% sure on undead so I hopped in von5 on elite w a opportunist rog and tested:



Crits work fine. I wasn't able to test any SA dmg though being by myself and all.

[Kreaper]

No SA on undead.

[t0r012]

With Oppotunist you can crit undead, elementals, contructs and all that hocus pocus. Precision allow you to crit them too, but the loss of damage for all other hits is not worth it. Never seen any sneak attack damage go through when testing both those feats.


benne^

unless you can get a pair of monks to do their fort reduction strikes which stack with Opp and precision.
then it might be worth it.

[Kinerd]

It turns out it's worth it even less then. Jade strike and precision are each -25% fort, so let's look at how the numbers shake out:

Vs. 100% fort, Jade Struck
75% of the time damage with no crits, 25% of the time damage with crits

Vs. 100% fort, Jade & Precision
50% of the time half damage with no crits, 50% of the time half damage with crits

Hence:
.75 * D + .25 * C vs. .25 * D + .25 * C

The first situation is always preferable. If we do vs. 50% fort, then we have:

.25 * D + .75 * C vs. .5 * C

The first situation is still always preferable. The only time Precision is worthwhile is if you desperately need the extra to-hit, which should be pretty much never.