TWF: Offhand vs Double strike?

[Alektronic]

Hey, so with the new update, TWF offhand strikes are set to a % chance for doublestrike right? So, my question is multi-layered (probably due to alot I don't understand):

1. Is 40% chance of offhand strike (TWF) the same as 40% chance of doublestrike (single weapon)?
2. Is 40% chance of offhand strike (TWF) the same as 40% chance of doublestrike (TWF)?
3. Similar to above: Bonus to double strike apply to both hands?
4. If doublestrike and offhand strike bonuses are equal (or close to it), don't the tempestI-III + ram's might + FE enhancements blow kensaiI-III + weapon spec + capstone enhancements out the water (for raw dps output)?

I'm TRing a dorf tempest ranger into kensai TWF, so asking so I can take all kensai benefits into account. If tempest really is the higher raw dps, then I will probably go strategist on TWF fighter to take advantage of bonuses to combat feat DCs, rather than just TR into a gimp tempest, hehe....

Thanks in advance for the help ^>^

[k1ngp1n]

Hey, so with the new update, TWF offhand strikes are set to a % chance for doublestrike right? So, my question is multi-layered (probably due to alot I don't understand):

1. Is 40% chance of offhand strike (TWF) the same as 40% chance of doublestrike (single weapon)?
2. Is 40% chance of offhand strike (TWF) the same as 40% chance of doublestrike (TWF)?
3. Similar to above: Bonus to double strike apply to both hands?
4. If doublestrike and offhand strike bonuses are equal (or close to it), don't the tempestI-III + ram's might + FE enhancements blow kensaiI-III + weapon spec + capstone enhancements out the water (for raw dps output)?

I'm TRing a dorf tempest ranger into kensai TWF, so asking so I can take all kensai benefits into account. If tempest really is the higher raw dps, then I will probably go strategist on TWF fighter to take advantage of bonuses to combat feat DCs, rather than just TR into a gimp tempest, hehe....

Thanks in advance for the help ^>^

Doublestrike and offhand are not the same.

Doublestrike - percentage chance that an attack will result in a second concurrent attack.

Offhand - percentage chance than an attack will result in a strike from the offhand weapon.

Read the terminology carefully, specified - attack =/= strike. DDO currently handles both weapons as one 'attack' with a percentage chance the offhand weapon will cause damage. When you doublestrike, a full extra attack round is initiated, with a new offhand attack percentage.

So an attack by a TWF with 80% offhand and 10% doublestrike (TWF fighter, for instance) will go as follows:

Full primary hand. 80% chance offhand weapon will strike. 10% of the time, a second attack will occur, resulting in a second primary strike, but no offhand strike.

Oh, and tempests suck. :P

[Justicesar]

Don't know....but FYI....I had a Dwarf TWF Kensai that I TRed into a HORC 18/2 Barb/Fighter using the Frenzy Berserker Pre and my DPS seem way better than Kensai. Matter of fact if Ravager Pre does not rock my world I will still be very happy. I had alot of TWF gear thus stayed with it as I already have a THF Barb.....just to head off the debate over the THF vs TWF.

[Malky]

Hum dwarf kensei vs h-orc barb is more a matter of dwarf vs horc. A h-orc kensei would cream an equally geared h-orc barb in most (if not all) situations. Looks like your playstyle fits the barb more, tho.

As for tempest and kensei, don't forget that kensei = stunning blow for most builds, add in those 13 30% haste boosts per rest (for h-orcs) and you'll get the picture.

[eonfreon]

I'm pretty sure that Doublestrikes are only for the primary hand. There is no chance for an off-hand double-strike, if I'm remembering correctly.

So basically:

100% for a primary attack + 10% chance for a second primary attack + 80% for an off-hand attack with GTWF Feat.

If someone could verify it would be great.
My problem is I use OTWF and I never really pay attention anymore to what hits when.

[Kinerd]

This post suggests eonfreon has it. This is a little Greenspan-y, but I think the key is the difference between "an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon" and "main hand attack".

[aristarchus1000]

This post suggests eonfreon has it. This is a little Greenspan-y, but I think the key is the difference between "an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon" and "main hand attack".

I have always interpretted Eladrin's post to mean that the double strike proc doesn't also proc an off-hand chance. That is also what I've usually read in the forums. But perhaps I and a few others were mistaken.

Probably the easiest way to settle this is to have a combat log of a pure TWF fighter attack the target dummy and see.

[Alektronic]

Doublestrike and offhand are not the same.

Doublestrike - percentage chance that an attack will result in a second concurrent attack.

Offhand - percentage chance than an attack will result in a strike from the offhand weapon.

Read the terminology carefully, specified - attack =/= strike. DDO currently handles both weapons as one 'attack' with a percentage chance the offhand weapon will cause damage. When you doublestrike, a full extra attack round is initiated, with a new offhand attack percentage.

So an attack by a TWF with 80% offhand and 10% doublestrike (TWF fighter, for instance) will go as follows:

Full primary hand. 80% chance offhand weapon will strike. 10% of the time, a second attack will occur, resulting in a second primary strike, and another 80% roll on the offhand strike.

Oh, and tempests suck. :P

Let me clarify, for sake of understanding the mechanic:

Kensai II/ Tempest I vs Kensai III

Full TWF line, same str, no buffs, carrying the same weapon in both left and right (say litII khpsh?) hitting a dummy (ie 0AC).

KII/TI
offhand 90% (20%base + 60% feats + 10% tempestI)
doublestrike 0%

KIII
offhand 80% (no tempest I)
doublestrike 10% (capstone)

In this specific scenario, are these builds equal? If so, then I see tempestIII outdoing kensaiIII (by 15%?) in number of attacks gear/feats being equal. Maybe kensai pulls ahead DPSwise b/c of haste boost/power surge/crit range increase as well as combat feats. I don't know, that's a can of worms, but did I get the mechanic right?

[jakeelala]

it's completely ridiculous that the system is so complicated we have to ask these questions

[eonfreon]

Let me clarify, for sake of understanding the mechanic:

Kensai II/ Tempest I vs Kensai III

Full TWF line, same str, no buffs, carrying the same weapon in both left and right (say litII khpsh?) hitting a dummy (ie 0AC).

KII/TI
offhand 90% (20%base + 60% feats + 10% tempestI)
doublestrike 0%

KIII
offhand 80% (no tempest I)
doublestrike 10% (capstone)

In this specific scenario, are these builds equal? If so, then I see tempestIII outdoing kensaiIII (by 15%?) in number of attacks gear/feats being equal. Maybe kensai pulls ahead DPSwise b/c of haste boost/power surge/crit range increase as well as combat feats. I don't know, that's a can of worms, but did I get the mechanic right?

I see what you're getting at. I suppose it should average out. T1 hits 10% more often with the off-hand but Ftr Capstone gives 10% chance for an extra attack.

But yes, I do believe the haste action boost + power surge + crit range increase + weapon specialization Feats all add quite a bit of dps to the Fighter over the Ranger's Favored Enemies.
As far as I can tell anyway.

[Alabore]

Oh, and tempests suck. :P

Well, who would have guessed just a couple years ago we'd hear those words.

it's completely ridiculous that the system is so complicated we have to ask these questions

Agree.
I adapted a bit and refitted my dual wielding chars, but I still think the new system is needlessly sibylline.
It feels as if they lifted it from some other game, and tried to shoehorn it into DnD rules.

I'm still wondering if the original intent was just reducing collision-related lag, or nerfing dual wielding down a bit.

[k1ngp1n]

I'm still wondering if the original intent was just reducing collision-related lag, or nerfing dual wielding down a bit.

Both. Unfortunately, the end result was that rangers got stuffed and everything else stayed about the same... it wasn't a nerf to TWF as much as a nerf to Tempests. I still play a Ranger as my primary, but if I were solely a min-maxer or didn't just love that build, I see no reason to play a ranger at current, quite honestly.

[Jaid314]

an extra main-hand strike is also better than an offhand because your offhand has 1/2 strength bonus only.

[Feithlin]

KII/TI
offhand 90% (20%base + 60% feats + 10% tempestI)
doublestrike 0%

KIII
offhand 80% (no tempest I)
doublestrike 10% (capstone)

In this specific scenario, are these builds equal? If so, then I see tempestIII outdoing kensaiIII (by 15%?) in number of attacks gear/feats being equal. Maybe kensai pulls ahead DPSwise b/c of haste boost/power surge/crit range increase as well as combat feats. I don't know, that's a can of worms, but did I get the mechanic right?

10% doublestrike wins over 10% offhand because main hand has full str mod. while left hand only has half str mod.

[Alabore]

Both. Unfortunately, the end result was that rangers got stuffed and everything else stayed about the same... it wasn't a nerf to TWF as much as a nerf to Tempests. I still play a Ranger as my primary, but if I were solely a min-maxer or didn't just love that build, I see no reason to play a ranger at current, quite honestly.

I edited my previous post because I wasn't sure about it.
I originally said "nerf tempests" - but as far as I know TWF paladins got a nerf with dual smites, too.

...

I am not going to necro old threads about U5; I'm sure number-savvy users already pointed out the probs with current TWF implementation.

I see the whole point with reducing collision checks in half.
And while I am no fan of rule ret-conning, I'd like to see a different system being developed for TWF.
Maybe something based on fixed percentages of off-hand dmg being added to main hand dmg, every X attacks, tied to BAB, feats and PrEs.
It would be closer to DnD spirit, and I'm sure they'd be able to strike the right balance in dmg output vs requirements/penalties.

As it is, I am not bothering with twin sets on my dual wielders anymore: I just equip the best critting weapon I can find, depending on race/class, pair it with a nice seeker of backstabbing, and call it a day.
And I really hope I'm not doing it too wrong...

[Alektronic]

an extra main-hand strike is also better than an offhand because your offhand has 1/2 strength bonus only.

Oh, I didn't think about that ^_^.