Rogue Acrobat Builds - Looking for Answers and help

[DigitalNikos]

Over the past few days I've been eyeing up the idea of creating a good rogue hybrid acrobat build. The idea behind building this acrobat is to have a character who wields QS's while still having max trap skills that are considered useable in end-game content. After scouring these forums though I'm having a difficult time pinning down what the best approach/build would be both race wise and multiclass wise. It appears that the majority of the acrobat community go either half-orc or halfling and that many are multiclassing with monk/fighter or just monk for the added ac, but I have a few questions:

1) in general which race is preferred? How do other races aside from halflings and horcs stack up in these builds? On a side note, I do prefer halflings over horc's, but also believe that a serious difference in damage is worthy of noting on such a dps starved build - thus is going horc going to give a huge advantage over going halfling? Will one or the other make up for lack of DPS with their abilities elsewhere (such as trap skills?)

2) What level breakdown would provide the best DPS, max rogue skills, and overall benefits to parties? Im not a min/max'er and love my pure halfling light monk which is why i want to splash a bit of monk into the mix (for the fun of button mashing in combat). I'm also partial to this due to liking the idea of wearing robes while wielding a QS, however if there is a better breakdown im all ears.

3) with many of the monk splashes I see a splash of fighter. What advantages and disadvantages does splashing fighter provide vs. not splashing it in?

4) Lastly - As I am planning to do some sort of rogue/monk splash, I am extremely curious on what benefits each of the following breakdowns offers?

13 rogue/7 monk
17 rogue/3 monk
13 rogue/6 monk/1 fighter
13 rogue/1 monk/6 fighter
any other breakdown's out there (i know ive seen a few folks splashing ranger etc)

I know im asking a lot from you guys, but any advice/info you can provide would be great. Im even open to build suggestions/layouts if you guys are willing to provide. In the event someone wishes to provide a build, I do have 32pt available and all races.

Thanks in advance for all the help guys!!

[Diyon]

Well the most popular stick builds are variants of the big stick build which you seem to have looked at as all the splits you listed are sometimes used for it. All of these will have a very fast attack speed.

13 rogue/7 monk - faster attack speed by a little, better stances, wholeness of body, extra sneak attack and incorporeal fun from ninja spy I, and slightly more skill points

17 rogue/3 monk - Best skill points, more rogue bonus abilities, more sneak attack, and fists of light with light monk.

13 rogue/6 monk/1 fighter - Similiar to the 13/7 above except no wholeness of body, less amp if you were bothering with that, but an extra feat with a good BAB.

13 rogue/1 monk/6 fighter - My personal favorite, best stunner with a +2 STR from fighter and a +2 STR from Sun Stance plus +2 to stunning blow DC from fighter, Kensai I for +1 stun DC better attack bonus and extra damage, best BAB, best HP for fighter HD and fighter toughness, and four fighter bonus feats.

Another one you didn't mention but could be a good choice in the future is 18 rogue/2 monk, which would be pretty much the same as the 17/3 but with access to Acrobat III when it gets implemented, and no fists of light.

All of these are more than capable with dealing with traps.

As far as races, most races can do well here. The best are obviously half orc (especially if you're going for super strength stunning blow), halfling, and warforged. The other races can do just fine with these builds and can get some other stuff you may be looking for.

Hope this breakdown helps.

[Duerty]

I play a 13/7 Thief Acrobat Ninja Spy and I love it. He is halfling STR build (non TR yet) and has great DPS. All crucial Rogue abilities are maxed (search/spot/locks/traps)...move silently and hide in shadows suffered, but I can self invis at will so I worry less about those..plus I don't sneak around a lot so I do not miss them (thye are still pretty high though).

This is a great build if you like a melee rogue that is not the typical 2 handed swinger. There are a lot of awesome quarterstaves in the game...Rahl's Might's, Dreamspitters, Souleater and Vac2 QStaff (both can insta-kill epic mobs).

Enjoy

[Dartwick]

If I were to roll a new acrobat or TR mine I would go.

13 Rogue(improved evasion and opportunist)
6 Monk(ninja spy for shadowfade and second wind stance)
1 Fighter

The extra hit points from 1 level of fighter and the extra feat are going to be way more useful than wholeness of body at the high levels.

Remember that monk levels give the same effective BAB as fighter levels when you use a quarterstaff.

My close second choice would be
13 Rogue(improved evasion and opportunist)
6 fighter( kensai 1)
1 monk

This build will have better base damage and better hitpoints but only air stance 1 and no shadowfade.

I would make a balanced build with a focus on strength. Dex based damage doesnt work well because you wont get the 2 hand damage bonus.


My current acrobat is 12 rogue/ 6fighter/ 2 monk. I made him back when airstance 1 required monk 2.

[DigitalNikos]

Thanks for the info thus far guys!

I actually have created a number of builds over the past few days and posted this as a means of solidifying what direction to go (or whether to reroll completely). At the moment, i have a slightly modified build of the BFS, which is only sitting at level 5. Based on the above poster, im guessing these stats will work out well for me provided i decide to go 13r/6m/1f? The 6 monk is definitely tempting with the idea of ninja spy in the mix (i was originally skeptical, but had forgotten about shadowfade).

All numbers from memory (im currently at work, thus no access to check for certain):

Str: 15
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Char: 8

Planning to put my level ups into strength of course.

As for levels thus far I went with the big stick setup of:

1: Rogue
2: Rogue
3: Monk
4: Monk
5: Rogue

Thus far he plays well, though i have blown a few boxes on elite which really made me shudder (not often i see a rogue blow a box when ive played as a monk in a party with one). To compensate however I did just pickup the appropriate gear (+5 search/disable rings). I also grabbed a pair of jidtiks (spelling?) to give him since hes running in robes, and i thought the small jump bonus was nice this early on!

I guess my concerns are all null and void based on what im reading? My primary concern was that he'd end up much more gimped than a Horc since horcs get the bonuses to 2h weapons etc? Also Im wondering on a good leveling path to gain the best synergy of classes during level up?


Like i said - hes only lvl 5 so a reroll would be nothing at all to me.

* As a partial thing of note as well, I am enjoying the sort of "carni" feel i get from this build. Since Im rolling around in robes (sorta gypsy'ish) while beating guys with a staff and occasionally firing out flames from my hands...i dunno its just a very cool build in general! * which is part of the reason, im not so hesitant on going horc either (though i have yet to find a really "sideshow"'ish looking horc design)

[Jaid314]

for the record, here's the difference between half-orc and halfling on this (assuming i didn't miss anything).

half-orc: +4 strength = +2 to hit, +3 to damage. add in THF enhancements, +2 to hit, +7 to damage. add in PA enhancements, -1 to hit, +13 to damage (all damage is multiplied on a crit)

halfling: -2 strength = -1 to hit, -1 or -2 to damage (depends on whether it makes your str mod odd or even). add in size bonus = +0 to hit, -2 to damage. sneak attack enhancements = +4 to hit, +7 or +8 to damage. dex bonus to sneak attack (up to 4 points of dex higher on identical build) = +4 to hit, +9 or +10 to damage (the damage is not multiplied on a crit).

obviously, if you can get your to-hit high enough, or against mobs that are immune to sneak attack, half-orc is looking good. also against autocrit mobs, for that matter. sometimes the +4 to hit might be the bigger difference though. overall, the half-orc is probably better once you're fully geared, but the halfling is not too badly off, and will have better AC if that matters. also 1 more skill point per level, and better UMD.

if you really like halfling, i don't think it's going to cripple you. but if you have lots of good gear for to-hit, half-orc is the king of damage in THF.

[Diyon]

Halfling should be just fine. I've ran with some halfling acrobats that are awesome.

Mine is drow (shudder, yes I will be TR'ing into a Half orc), I currently have 452 HP, 40 STR unbuffed, and do about 120ish damage on average per hit (still looking for tharnes googles). I have very few issues with dps and am often top on the kill counts (for however much that matters). I typically rush in and just beat the stuffing out of stuff, and now that I have my epic souleater, I hardly need healing on trash. Because I have a tendency not to hang back a second and just rush head first into the next room is why I'll be going half orc since the dps from it will be more consistent in my playstyle (plus I'll be able to reach 50-56 STR while buffed).

[camels]

o get.

[camels]

for the record, here's the difference between half-orc and halfling on this (assuming i didn't miss anything).

half-orc: +4 strength = +2 to hit, +3 to damage. add in THF enhancements, +2 to hit, +7 to damage. add in PA enhancements, -1 to hit, +13 to damage (all damage is multiplied on a crit)

halfling: -2 strength = -1 to hit, -1 or -2 to damage (depends on whether it makes your str mod odd or even). add in size bonus = +0 to hit, -2 to damage. sneak attack enhancements = +4 to hit, +7 or +8 to damage. dex bonus to sneak attack (up to 4 points of dex higher on identical build) = +4 to hit, +9 or +10 to damage (the damage is not multiplied on a crit).

obviously, if you can get your to-hit high enough, or against mobs that are immune to sneak attack, half-orc is looking good. also against autocrit mobs, for that matter. sometimes the +4 to hit might be the bigger difference though. overall, the half-orc is probably better once you're fully geared, but the halfling is not too badly off, and will have better AC if that matters. also 1 more skill point per level, and better UMD.

if you really like halfling, i don't think it's going to cripple you. but if you have lots of good gear for to-hit, half-orc is the king of damage in THF.

i see that you love horcs XD

[DigitalNikos]

Thanks for the help thus far guys!

The following is more of less all just thoughts on paper so to speak, so if it seems disorganized and discombobulated, I apologize!


Last night I rolled up a Horc (as i did have a rather amusing name for him) to try out both styles. Below is a detailing of each (i realize both are differently built). If you guys could - please help me understand where the major differences are coming from - please help:

Horc 13R / 6F / 1M:
18 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
8 Wis
6 Char

Level progression thus far: Rogue,Fighter, Monk, Rogue
The Horc does much more damage when he hits (1D6 +19 = mid 20's) + 2d6 of effects (staff is frost of pure good). The problem is he is hitting far less than than the below build. On top of that the lack of AC (im guessing) is turning this behemoth into a giant mana spongue (which always makes me shudder a little..i hate being "that" guy). Lastly on water works elite he blew 3 out of 4 traps (with +3 gear sloted) and one even blowing on a 10 roll!

Halfling 17R / 7M - or could be a 13R /6M /1F
15 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
10 Wis
8 Char

Level progression thus far: Rogue, Rogue, Monk, Monk, Rogue (yes this one is up to lvl 5 now) but comparison will be done as of level 4:
The Halfling does far less damage im finding (looks like 1D6 + 16 or low-20's) with no added effects, though he's hitting quite a bit more (he still wiff's occasionally but not as often). One thing thats probably skewing the numbers at the moment though is that with him I'm running the Natt Gann's staff. I found that when utilizing a normal staff his to-hit was far lower (by as much as 3-4) and did less damage (even in fire stance). Running in wind stance with the natt gann he has roughly a +2-3 to-hit and about a +4-5 damage boost. On top of that the natt gann is skewing his numbers due to the minor dodge ac boost along with a +4 to dex right off the bat. In regards to traps however he didnt blow a single box in water works with the same gear slotted.


My question is more regarding the long term. With the horc my level progression was designed to reach acrobat 1 asap now (aka rogue levels til i get it) and then grab kensai I (aka all fighter til i get it). If being a mana sponge for 2-3 levels, and not being able to handle traps for those levels, is what it takes to really get this build off the ground, then im ok with that, but if he's going to continue to be this way all the way through the mid levels, then he's just not my play style.

With the halfling, Im still unsure if i wanted to go 17/3 or 13/6/1 and at present could go either way. My major concern with him is that he really doesnt put out the damage i'd hoped for. Looking long term i project that he'll only ever get to 20str (without items etc) which seems low to me for this sort of build? On top of that his dex will continue to climb throughout the build until lvl 19, and during this whole time he'll always have a higher dex than strength until lvl 20 at which point they even out which seems rather counter-productive to me?


I guess what im asking/looking for is a build which will allow me to enjoy the acrobat's staff speed (as much as posible), and will allow me to disarm traps at appropriate expectations, all while still allowing me more of a "monk" style of play - aka run in and beat on stuff without worrying too much about getting my a** handed to me. Id also like the ability to feel the effects of some of those pre abilities before hitting mid/end game, which is why my level progression was laid out as per above. (in otherwords, id rather not wait until 13-14 before getting acro I or kensai I etc).

** Edit **
End all be all - what I really want is a Monk build that uses staves and (since he'll be an acrobat by nature - disarms traps effiectively on all content). Since playing a staff wielding pure monk is counter-productive (as i'd be losing out on a TON of dps this way), Im looking at the acrobat to fill that roll, while still allowing the monk robes etc. So the only real question is, which builds will let me hit frequently, very quickly, and disarm traps, all while looking cool in outfits/robes

[Dartwick]

Your low level efforts at comparison are so flawed that you really shouldnt waste the time.

beginning stat differences are exaggerated at low levels. Enhancement bonuses are under weighted at low levels.

Using the Nat Gan staff makes all the comparison rather worthless. Theres only 2 staffs like it, and only the Epic Nat Gan is even viable at high levels and most dex builds will still do more damage with plain old MIn2

The half Orc will give you more straight up damage, the halfling will give you better saves and sneak attack damage.

[Geonis]

I did the Str based Halfling Rog 13/Monk 7, it was a lot of fun and very effective.

I have since TR'd him into another TA, this time going Half Orc, ending Rog 13/Barb 7.

I know people will whine that you can't get traps while raging, but it's no big deal.

Currently at level 13 (Rog 7/Barb6), I am extremely pleased with the results.

[Jaid314]

i see that you love horcs XD

actually, their weird body proportions (specifically, those tiny little legs) annoy me considerably. but, when it comes to two-handed fighting style, they can't be beat for damage.

if you mean i neglected to mention any differences in terms of stuff other than damage, that's because i was under the impression a comparison of damage dealt was being requested.

if you're aiming for AC, then yeah the halfling is probably the way to go. but hopefully/ideally, you won't have aggro anyways. plus, getting meaningful AC is a rather large investment. the halfling will also have better reflex saves, but likely both halfling and half-orc will have excellent reflex saves anyways.

[Popebob_4th]

Personally I think str based rogue just sounds wrong for one. And the sacrifice isn't worth it in my opinion. Yeah you do more dps but you lose your valuable reflex and any hope for top ab... not to mention the terrible ac. My idea of a sweet build is the simple but very serious 20 rogue. I think the addition to the monk is also a very nice direction if that what you like. The powerful sneak attack damage from full rogue is worth it. Sneak attack damage allows for great pvp and your speed as an acrobat allows you to kill even the best fighters and barbarians. My lvl 9 dex based acrobat has been killing several lvl 13 fighters and barbarians. The simple fact that your dishing out your dex bonus in with your sneak attack damage makes you one hell of a killer.

[Artos_Fabril]

Personally I think str based rogue just sounds wrong for one. And the sacrifice isn't worth it in my opinion. Yeah you do more dps but you lose your valuable reflex and any hope for top ab... not to mention the terrible ac. My idea of a sweet build is the simple but very serious 20 rogue. I think the addition to the monk is also a very nice direction if that what you like. The powerful sneak attack damage from full rogue is worth it.

(emphasis mine)
1. More reflex save is no longer valuable when you only fail on a one, because you always fail on a one.
2. Top AB is acquired through strength, there are just so many more ways to increase strength than there are to increase dex, it's insane.
3. building for AC is expensive and time-consuming at best, hopeless at worst. It virtually requires a monk splash, which costs you no less than 4d6 sneak attack.

Sneak attack damage allows for great pvp and your speed as an acrobat allows you to kill even the best fighters and barbarians. My lvl 9 dex based acrobat has been killing several lvl 13 fighters and barbarians. The simple fact that your dishing out your dex bonus in with your sneak attack damage makes you one hell of a killer.

1. PvP what?
2. Dealing out your dex bonus in your sneak attack damage is kinda moot, since you could be dealing your str bonus in all damage, and have it multiplied on crits.

[Jaid314]

if you've been getting to sneak attack people in PvP, it's only because they're slumming or clueless. heavy fortification is extremely common starting around level 11, when minos legens is available to many people. even those who can't get a minos can get heavy fort by then, with some careful searching of the AH. at which point, your sneak attack damage does squat. this would be completely beside the point if this didn't also describe your situation as a rogue when fighting undead, elementals, and constructs, which are (combined) found in quite a few quests and you'll likely have to deal with them. also plants, i think, but they're not exactly common.

higher strength is just flat out better for damage. it increases your chance to hit, it increases your damage when you do hit. dex is good for AC builds, but who cares? why are you making an AC build rogue? you gonna be tanking a lot of fights or something?

[DigitalNikos]

Wow! Thank you all for all the info thus far!!

Artos, One question I had regarding your statement below (specifically point 3):

(emphasis mine)
1. More reflex save is no longer valuable when you only fail on a one, because you always fail on a one.
2. Top AB is acquired through strength, there are just so many more ways to increase strength than there are to increase dex, it's insane.
3. Building for AC is expensive and time-consuming at best, hopeless at worst. It virtually requires a monk splash, which costs you no less than 4d6 sneak attack.
1. PvP what?
2. Dealing out your dex bonus in your sneak attack damage is kinda moot, since you could be dealing your str bonus in all damage, and have it multiplied on crits.

Are you suggesting that going pure is the only way to go? Im not criticizing, I'm simplying curious, since your statement sounds as if that 4D6 makes or breaks any sort of acrobat build. If your simply saying that I shouldnt be building for AC as its a pointless venture, then I understand, but is there not a point to taking the 6 fighter/1 monk split in your eyes? If not can you justify why not for me to help me understand?


On a side note gang - still toying with the build layouts last night, I am working on H-Orc "version 4" now.
Stat breakdown now is:
Str 20
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 6

So far he seems to be holding his own quite well. One thing i didnt take early on (as i noticed i had with my earlier rendition) was orcish power attack. Im not sure why i even decided to take it with my earlier build so early on, but obviously that helps my to-hit, and the extra 1 point in strength pretty much counters that from my earlier build. im still a mana sponge but i guess thats a given considering i have only an ac of 16 at this point.

[Artos_Fabril]

Are you suggesting that going pure is the only way to go? Im not criticizing, I'm simplying curious, since your statement sounds as if that 4D6 makes or breaks any sort of acrobat build. If your simply saying that I shouldnt be building for AC as its a pointless venture, then I understand, but is there not a point to taking the 6 fighter/1 monk split in your eyes? If not can you justify why not for me to help me understand?

No, I'm not saying that pure is the only way to go, and a Big F'n stick generally assumes an MC setup anyway. But you do give up a lot of sneak attack damage for those rogue levels, which you should always take into account when making build decisions.

My main point was that building for AC has an extremely high opportunity cost in every other aspect of your character. It takes build point away from DPS, HPs, and skills (not so much of a concern) it takes gear slots away from DPS, HPs, and nifty extras... and at the end of the day, unless you're in at least the 60s, you're still not getting anything out of it and not much then until you can top 80s in normal content of get over 100 in epic.

[AMDarkwolf]

Personally I think str based rogue just sounds wrong for one. And the sacrifice isn't worth it in my opinion. Yeah you do more dps but you lose your valuable reflex and any hope for top ab... not to mention the terrible ac. My idea of a sweet build is the simple but very serious 20 rogue. I think the addition to the monk is also a very nice direction if that what you like. The powerful sneak attack damage from full rogue is worth it. Sneak attack damage allows for great pvp and your speed as an acrobat allows you to kill even the best fighters and barbarians. My lvl 9 dex based acrobat has been killing several lvl 13 fighters and barbarians. The simple fact that your dishing out your dex bonus in with your sneak attack damage makes you one hell of a killer.

str build rog, chimin in here: 38 str without madstone or titans, or epic souleater in hand.


reflex saves? easily 35 non buffed. over 45 buffed.

Ac? 55ish just standin around. 76 buffed.

Yea, my reflex suffers, my ac is horrible.

[DigitalNikos]

str build rog, chimin in here: 38 str without madstone or titans, or epic souleater in hand.


reflex saves? easily 35 non buffed. over 45 buffed.

Ac? 55ish just standin around. 76 buffed.

Yea, my reflex suffers, my ac is horrible.

But how does the build play? Im guessing your an Acrobat so with that said, is the lack reflex and AC worth the extra DPS you do in your oppinion? Is the build consistently a mana sponge? Also are you Multiclassed? or pure?

These are the questions I have. Though i understand the lack of AC's usefulness in endgame content, I also dont like playing a character who eats up all of the healers time because he's consistently taking massive amounts of damage.