Rapiers vs. Khopeshes

[Malky]

number of times i wish i had some more points on damage output. and number of times i enjoyed the crit ratio (a funny one is using bodyfeeder rapiers).

Yeah my pair of +5 Icy Burst Bodyfeeder Rapier of Pure Good was just godlike in vale, i happened to run a bard hireling out of songs way before he ran out of sp (due to little to no healing needed), and it was the level 15 one so i was under haste&displacement from him pretty much all the time.

[Jonny_D]

Scrolls of Masters Touch at the beginning of the quest, they're sold in the Portable Hole. Easy fix. Martial Weapon proficiency on a character with UMD is a moot point.

why are people still talking about taking proficiency feat for picks.....

It's free when you have UMD. Any one-handed martial weapon is, just costs 1 inventory slot for a stack of master of touch scrolls.

never knew those scrolls were added, must have been done when i was away thanks for that info
I think then the case for Rapier/ Heavy Picks are even better as it frees up a feat for an extra toughness at the very least thanks to the scrolls

[LightBear]

This makes me wonder how far the critical multiplier can be stretched, what class is the best at this and how far does it go?

[Razcar]

This makes me wonder how far the critical multiplier can be stretched, what class is the best at this and how far does it go?

Off the top of my head: Kensai III increases threat range by 1 for their chosen weapon, paladins can increase the multiplier on smites, and barbarians can increase the multiplier when they roll a 19-20.

Of course a couple barbs might still have Critical Rage left.

[SmashBang]

play what you like, like what you play


I use short swords and rapiers on my rogue, because it fits with the role play image I have of him. I still do plenty of DPS and get plenty of kills.

[Malky]

play what you like, like what you play

This.

[RJBsComputer]

I found the "The Str Rogue Guide" to be funny after reading this thread first. If this thread was read first, then the bias toward Khopeshes would not been SO out in the the open.

[baddax]

Since this is in the rogue forum i am going to assume you DO NOT want the highest dps in a group as this could have very unfortunate side effects.

[frznvimes]

Since this is in the rogue forum i am going to assume you DO NOT want the highest dps in a group as this could have very unfortunate side effects.

subtle backstabbing, eat your enemy's heart out.

[callforkills]

Khopesh as as you can read above by far the best DPS weapon, but if you are soloing or
doing a very hard quest you can always try to get some stat damaging rapiers, which
contibute to the party very well in those situations.

[Feithlin]

Khopesh as as you can read above by far the best DPS weapon

By far? Lol, no, by 3-5%. Look at my maths or at the calcul from Razcar:

When using Aaxeyu and A-O's spread sheet, for a nigh maxed out half-orc rogue (max buffs, 44 Str, 10 Haste Boosts, max PA, Quick Draw, loads of gear) you get 642.6 DPS for 5 minutes of TWF with Min II khopeshes.

Change to rapiers and you get 622.11. That's a difference of 3.3 %. Is that worth the feat? I don't know. Not having Quick Draw, for this character in this scenario, would detract 2.3% DPS, for example.

Not taking khopesh and instead picking Quick Draw and the rogue TR feat (switching out Imp Crit at level 20) actually makes you do just about the same (1 point more) DPS with rapiers (+ TR feat) than khopesh over 5 minutes (and a chunk more at 3 minutes fighting since the TR boosts only lasts 3x1 minute). And you will get +5 to hit while the TR feat is running.

Use khopesh if that makes you feel happy, but they are not "by far the best dps weapon" for a rogue (it's different for a fighter or a barb).
Some say, why not take khopesh if you can for a better dps? Sure, but then why not take Quick draw or PL. On a rogue, it's really only a matter of taste between rapiers or khopeshes.

[Razcar]

subtle backstabbing, eat your enemy's heart out.

Plus Thranes on DT, along with your Goggles, for an extra -20% Threat.

[locus]

Since this is in the rogue forum i am going to assume you DO NOT want the highest dps in a group as this could have very unfortunate side effects.

Well, this would only be true if dps and aggro correlated 1:1 without any way to modify it. Various items, subtle backstabbing, diplomacy if used wisely, etc. fixes the above. So no, everyone in this forum seems to want the max dps generally.

Personally, I find feats to be tight on rogues. If either TWF or Toughness were added to rogue specific feats (like they are on the monk specific feat list), for example, then I could see Khopesh being a good suggestion in almost all cases, but as it is, I usually find it hard to fit into rogue builds (especially on accounts that don't have a lot of gear/plat and/or suggestions for first timers), and really most melee TWF builds (on bards? even worse). I guess SF:UMD just calls too loudly for me

[Draccus]

I LR'd from dex-based to strength based last night. I only gained 4 damage, straight up, but agree with what many of you said is a huge advantage for rapiers: A free feat for Past Life: Sneak of Shadows.

WOW. That is a fantastic feat. I only got to use it in a few quests (solo Wrath of Flames and Elite Shroud) but WOW.

[Razcar]

I LR'd from dex-based to strength based last night. I only gained 4 damage, straight up, but agree with what many of you said is a huge advantage for rapiers: A free feat for Past Life: Sneak of Shadows.

WOW. That is a fantastic feat. I only got to use it in a few quests (solo Wrath of Flames and Elite Shroud) but WOW.

The +1 to all skills and the +10/+5 to sneak attacks (at cap) is good enough, but then we have the +20 (!) to Hide/MS as well, which makes an already sneaky toon a veritable shadow, while ensuring that a brutish 8 Int half-orc build can at least be able to sneak decently.

[Draccus]

The +1 to all skills and the +10/+5 to sneak attacks (at cap) is good enough, but then we have the +20 (!) to Hide/MS as well, which makes an already sneaky toon a veritable shadow, while ensuring that a brutish 8 Int half-orc build can at least be able to sneak decently.

One thing I forgot to test last night is whether it breaks stealth to activate it. I noticed that activating it makes my character do the long spell animation (like summoning an elemental) instead of just activating (like Haste Boost). That makes me think it may break stealth when activated. If it does, that's a poor implementation for a stealth bonus!

[baddax]

subtle backstabbing, eat your enemy's heart out.

While i realize that and a few specific items can modify your actual hate generated, I was doing some quick calcs in my head from a capped rogue of over 100 pts of SA damage per swing on average. Also depending on the builds and gear of the rest of the party it seems at some point this could become an issue.

[Razcar]

While i realize that and a few specific items can modify your actual hate generated, I was doing some quick calcs in my head from a capped rogue of over 100 pts of SA damage per swing on average. Also depending on the builds and gear of the rest of the party it seems at some point this could become an issue.

It can, but if you have this high SA, with max Backstabbing items, TR feat etc. you usually run with other well-built and well-equipped melee, many who have threat increasing abilities and loot like Brute Fighting and who do loads of DPS themselves.

But if you join new players in for example a pug Shroud raid, you might pull aggro, even with your -50% or -60% threat. And take care with those Red Fens Claw sets, +10/20 % threat on a rogue can decrease your overall DPS by alot.

[fabhpk]

Especially in the light of Radiance II, smiting and banishing when leveling and that when you reach Epics, you should UMD Master's Touch for heavy picks anyway.

That´s why I choose rapiers...

Radiance rapiers are one of the few love the devs showed to rogues in higher levels... Tho the epic held mob bug weights against the love.. ;-]

While leveling banishing and smiting are really a must...

Since smiting don´t have a HD limit, it works even on those red named rare golems from devil´s battlefield - but it takes time for them to fail a save...

A pair of banishing rapiers on those vale quests are VERY helpful.

A I always loved puncturing on lower levels.

Even if dps is lower, those extra effects and the fact that you don´t need a feat to use them turns the rapiers into a winner - IMO.