Why Is PUGing HoX Always Synonymous With Big ****ing Disaster

[nolaureltree000]

HoX really isnt that hard of a raid. intimitank holds the aggro of the momma dog. bard collects stones then charms the puppies and then buffs them up with the help of the arcane caster. two healers stand in the middle, one heals the puppies, one heals the tank. the rest runs to the right, while one runs to the left clearing trash and drinking pots/using wands whenever they take damage. its so straightforward that there is probably only less piking in the reaver's fate raid.

but yet im probably at less than a 50% success rate on my toons while PUGging HoX. either someone picks up one of the stones but doesnt give it up to the bard (i guess they think its loot or something), the dogs break their charm after less than a minute or arent buffed enough, someone kills the puppies, someone gets the puppies aggro on the outside but no matter how many times you tell them 'you have the aggro of the puppies, please take to center' they just keep kiting them around the outside till they die, the healers dont heal the puppies, one of the healers gets bees, someone brings aggro to the center, etc.

luckily i pulled levik's bracers on my monk recently and have the ring of thelis on my caster. i tried doing another run on my monk last night, just trying to get a completion and a chance at a +3 tome, but i dont think im going to be PUGing HoX at all anymore. spending 15-20 minutes running through the Sub to the quest, then another 10-15 minutes in the quest just to have a party wipe just isnt worth it.

am i just getting into bad groups, or is HoX PUGing across the board that terrible? better yet, other than not PUGing, what can be done to improve the quality of HoX PUGs? just explaining the raid in detail before starting doesnt seem to work.

[xTethx]

Why dont you pick up the stones? The bard doesnt need to pick up the stones, plus ur a monk = run faster and kill better than any1 in the quest hands down.

[nolaureltree000]

Why dont you pick up the stones? The bard doesnt need to pick up the stones, plus ur a monk = run faster and kill better than any1 in the quest hands down.

i usually end up running left. usually the bard picks up the first two stones, then the arcane caster picks on the next two and runs them to the bard.

[moops]

Why dont you pick up the stones? The bard doesnt need to pick up the stones, plus ur a monk = run faster and kill better than any1 in the quest hands down.

No doubt I was in an elite run recently where things were chaotic to say the least, but the Monk ran left, picked up stones becuz bard didnt seem to be doing it, came to center to rez me, tanked the big dog at one point, and had the most kills.

[Tat2Freak]

HoX really isnt that hard of a raid. intimitank holds the aggro of the momma dog. bard collects stones then charms the puppies and then buffs them up with the help of the arcane caster. two healers stand in the middle, one heals the puppies, one heals the tank. the rest runs to the right, while one runs to the left clearing trash and drinking pots/using wands whenever they take damage. its so straightforward that there is probably only less piking in the reaver's fate raid.

This is your problem..there are many ways to beat HoX...everyone has forgot how and no one can improvise in the heat of the moment, when your straight forward raid doesn't go straight forward.

[Astraghal]

Because the majority of people go into this raid without a clear understanding of the criteria which need to be met in order to ensure success.

They don't understand what's happening at any given time and cannot respond to any adversity they may be confronted with.

Usually you have about 4 people who know what's going on, but they are always fulfilling a crucial role in the raid so cannot abandon their role to fill in for the other 8 pikers when things start going wrong.

There are a number of reasons why things usually spiral downward so fast:

People lie about knowing what to do.

Dogs get killed because people aren't careful or have lied about knowing what to do.

People don't undersand what aggro is and whether or not they have it, so end up kiting small dogs around the outside completely oblivious to the fact that they have aggro.

Most people don't have a Silver Flame Talisman/Beholder Optic Nerves/Eye of the Beholder, so get negative levels and die if and when the beholders emerge.

People don't see the small beholders because they lied about knowing what to do and run past them not knowing where the pwning is coming from.

Most melee lack AC/DPS/vorpals, so are unable to deal with renders in a timely manner and are likely to succumb if they are faced with more than 1 or 2.

Melees kite stuff to the middle while running for their lives, compromising the raid.

Noone gets any healing attention because for some reason the tank/dogs need the undivided attention of a bard and 2-3 clerics in order to function.

Clerics/idiots walk in front of X'yzzy and get bees and die.

Renders are on the tank and noone comes and kills them (never a problem when I've tanked because I've had enough AC to be more or less immune to them, but I've often wondered what's going through the people's minds who are standing around watching a gaggle of renders beating on me while I'm tanking the raid boss..).

Some crucial person like a healer or the tank dies and doesn't get raised.

Too few people go into this raid with the mentality of knowing what situations can possily arise and what part they can play in handling them.

A lot of people join hound groups hoping to pike their way to some free chests because they are too lazy to learn what's going on.

Gimpy, clueless, unprepared, lying, lazy pikers comprise ~50% of every hound pug.

That's why pug hounds are usually a disaster.

[TipsyDrow]

HoX really isnt that hard of a raid. intimitank holds the aggro of the momma dog. bard collects stones then charms the puppies and then buffs them up with the help of the arcane caster. two healers stand in the middle, one heals the puppies, one heals the tank. the rest runs to the right, while one runs to the left clearing trash and drinking pots/using wands whenever they take damage. its so straightforward that there is probably only less piking in the reaver's fate raid.

but yet im probably at less than a 50% success rate on my toons while PUGging HoX. either someone picks up one of the stones but doesnt give it up to the bard (i guess they think its loot or something), the dogs break their charm after less than a minute or arent buffed enough, someone kills the puppies, someone gets the puppies aggro on the outside but no matter how many times you tell them 'you have the aggro of the puppies, please take to center' they just keep kiting them around the outside till they die, the healers dont heal the puppies, one of the healers gets bees, someone brings aggro to the center, etc.

luckily i pulled levik's bracers on my monk recently and have the ring of thelis on my caster. i tried doing another run on my monk last night, just trying to get a completion and a chance at a +3 tome, but i dont think im going to be PUGing HoX at all anymore. spending 15-20 minutes running through the Sub to the quest, then another 10-15 minutes in the quest just to have a party wipe just isnt worth it.

am i just getting into bad groups, or is HoX PUGing across the board that terrible? better yet, other than not PUGing, what can be done to improve the quality of HoX PUGs? just explaining the raid in detail before starting doesnt seem to work.

You don't need an intimitank, any toon with a shield, a solid fog clickie and reasonable HP can tank it. You don't need a bard, anyone can use the charm stones, the cleric then casts mass bulls, mass bears and massheals. It's even easier then you explain it. ........Untill......the healer gets to close and gets bees and forgot to use death pact, the tank dies and the momma runs wild, mini beholders spawn and all Hades breaks loose and THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING..... Stuff happens, Raids fail, pick yourself up and do it again. grab a vodka tonic first next time....

[k1ngp1n]

Too few people go into this raid with the mentality of knowing what situations can possily arise and what part they can play in handling them.

A lot of people join hound groups hoping to pike their way to some free chests because they are too lazy to learn what's going on.

Quoting this for emphasis and agreement. In fact, I'd like to quote it again:

Too few people go into this raid with the mentality of knowing what situations can possily arise and what part they can play in handling them.

A lot of people join hound groups hoping to pike their way to some free chests because they are too lazy to learn what's going on.

Quoting this for emphasis and agreement.

'Don't move once you step in! OMG you moved you noob!'

[Solmage]

Noone gets any healing attention because for some reason the tank/dogs need the undivided attention of a bard and 2-3 clerics in order to function.

And yet if you're going to really noob pug this, (ie no guild tags/unknown guilds only) the safest way is to bring 3 clerics, and assign each cleric a dog. Don't let them assign the dogs between themselves, because, clearly, 3 clerics healing 3 dogs is too much to ask without EXPLICIT advise. Have the bard heal anyone that needs it.

Heck may want to throw in a 4th cleric to run in the outside with the noob patrol, maybe between them all they can kill a render or two.

I personally do not understand what the big **** problem is healing 3 dogs, but whatever. The biggest question you should be asking yourself is WHY the heck do you want to pug this, when all you're doing is helping clueless noob pikers remain clueless noob pikers.

A little test that works wonders is to run to clear to the raid's entrance, which most competent people can clear by themselves, and then have the would-be members try to reach it through a mostly cleared dungeon. You'll hear a lot of dings at the skeletons and what not, wait for the recall, and dismiss. It used to amuse us that useless pikers would try to join elite hounds and vods yet couldn't kill 2 little skeletons.

[lugoman]

I'll add one to the reasons for failure:

Someone ran it successfully with a bard in the group and thinks it will be that easy without one. If you dont have a bard you will probably need to pick up a second round of stones. This means if everyone runs and pikes in the middle there will be to many trash mobs on the outside to get more stones. If it's a pug with no bard, keep circling.

[Dragonhyde]

When I run HOX with my bards I rarely am the charmer anymore usually is a monk they get the stones come in charm and while they charm I start buffing and healing

[AyumiAmakusa]

When I PUG HoX I always get ready for a wipe because it's one of those quests that don't just involve mindless bashing and healing and unless the team has good cooperation, things will almost always fail.

If it weren't for Lorricks, I won't even set foot in that quest.

[hermespan]

PuGing hox is not always a disaster.

However, I can tell how the run will go long before we get there. My noobsenses start tingling. Generally if the party splits up and it takes longer than 20 minutes to get there, you have people all over the subterraene dying, just save yourself the pain and bail right there because the run will inevitably fail. If people can't follow the people in front of them, they definitely can't follow directions once they are in the raid.

[Chette]

Pugging HoX is frequently a disaster because for many new players it's the first raid/quest where there is an actual strategy. Up until HoX they can run around like an idiot, swinging at everything and yelling for hjeals, and as long as the rest of the group is decent they will survive. They can completely pike their way up to 16 or 17 or heck even 20 this way.

But then they run into hound, agro everything, run into the centre so the cleric can hjeal them, get agro on the healers, get the dogs killed, pull in beholders breaking the charm, etc etc. One or two people who don't understand can blow one of the easiest raids in the game unfortunately.

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

Pugging HoX is frequently a disaster because for many new players it's the first raid/quest where there is an actual strategy. Up until HoX they can run around like an idiot, swinging at everything and yelling for hjeals, and as long as the rest of the group is decent they will survive. They can completely pike their way up to 16 or 17 or heck even 20 this way.

But then they run into hound, agro everything, run into the centre so the cleric can hjeal them, get agro on the healers, get the dogs killed, pull in beholders breaking the charm, etc etc. One or two people who don't understand can blow one of the easiest raids in the game unfortunately.

+1, right on target. Along with plenty of reasons in the OP. I think also there is alot of assuming going on. Where people assume they know the quest, and/or people don't speak up otherwise. There is an assumption people know their roles, and clearly many do not or do not know them fully. How many times have I run the hound where the arcane didnt know how useful mass cat's grace is for the lil doggies or globes of invunerability is for party members with bees (cast off to the side of course), or the healers who do not have the spell or scrolls of mass bulls and bears, or cant coordinate their heals. Or how many people insist on displacing the dogs, as Xyzzy has true seeing this is ueseless (this one Im okay with as it can be situationally useful if a render wanders in or if one dog breaks and starts attacking the others and cant be charmed due to lack of stones). Or how the melees cant heal themselves or (if not) stick with a group when they run on the outside, and do not have the right weapons /gear to handle the massive hp's of mobs or the beholderst that come out.

It is indeed a simple raid in many ways, but can be fu-barred on so many levels rather easily.

[Darkrok]

Lots of examples of fail

+1 for listing every single way I've seen a Hound fail.

Also, I wish people would have a more mobile class like a bard run stones for a change in the groups I'm in. People always seem to insist that I run stones when I'm on my bard. But since I'm also the main buffer that means that part gets started later. Unless someone has the Augment Summoning feat the fastest person should be running the stones.

[stoopid_cowboy]

Another bad HoX idea...

Cleric: I'll use my aura to help heal the puppies.


Just HJEAL THE DOGS!

yuda

ps. Mass heals should also hit the momma tank

[Previsible]

90% of the time I get into HoX pugs and try to clarify the duties and responsibilities with the leaders and they don't have a sufficient tank OR they have loaded up the party with low DPS gimps that can't do the job right.

I've seen a healer who decided he was going to heal the tank with his radiant servant aura (standing in bees over and over) I had to tell him 3 or 4 times not to do that before I just let him die and left him dead.

I've gotten into a party where we're full, we clear all the way to the quest, we get to the door then the leader asks, "Okay, who's tanking?"

I've been in a party where they asked the FvS healer to pick up stones while the bard sits in the middle (and had him do this throughout the fight leaving one healer for tank/puppies)

I've heard someone ask how to "break fleshrender DR"

In the end you're bound to always get into these pugs where it's not going to work out even when you give your best effort. I guess that the only thing you can do is pick up and start over with a different group.

[MrWizard]

the run there is a big indicator of the group's success rate...mostly.

lots of deaths? lots of people getting lost?
Long time to kill things in the way?
Need for lots of healing on the way?
Little to no voice chat, or mostly members with small text like 'k' 'gr8' etc...bad

I have been in pugs where someone picked up 3 stones since no one could find them. We only charmed one dog.

Hello to pugs...

[cdemeritt]

I think the most critical error is: Some people feel they know it all, and don't need to listen to what's being asked of them.

Joined a pug hound a while back on my bard. I was told to pick up the first three stones and that the 4th stone would be brought to me... just get the dogs charmed and buffed asap....."Ok, NP" I say, "but will whoever gets the 4th stone, do NOT open a trade window with me until I call for it... as a trade window disrupts my UI, and I won't be able to finish buffing the dogs until I close it." three stones picked up, I start the process of charming the dogs... 1 dog charmed, 2 dog targeted, hit the charm, bam a trade window opens. No stone in the window, so I close it asap, now need to retarget the 2nd dog, who has move behind momma and is blocked... reposition, charm dogs 2&3 buff them, ask for the stone..... I get "I used it, as you didn't want it, and weren't charming the dogs...." So needless to say, when the dogs broke, there was no spare stone, and all hell broke loose...

I was very angry, as I specifically asked them not to open a trade window (not like there isn't plenty of time for trading the stone after the dogs are charmed and buffed) but they said they asked me if I was ready... and my no apparently ment yes, then they used the stone themselves...


Oh well, I was happy to watch Mr. I'llnotlistentowhatyouaskanddowhatIwant die at the hands of several renderers before teleporting out. (granted this raid should have still succeeded had the rest of the group been able to pull itself together, but would have been a very smooth run had people listed to what was being asked of them.)