Pure Caster FvS questions.

[wax_on_wax_off]

So, I'm 73 favour from unlocking Favoured Soul, I'm pretty excited. I've been agonising over what build I should roll up for my first FvS and would like to iron out some important points.

I've recently leveled up a clonk and I really enjoy the playstyle, particularly the survivability.

Therefore, I'm thinking to splash 2 monk but still be a max wisdom build, this way I can have wisdom 2 points higher than a pure FvS build.

So, I'm trying to choose a race: Halfling for reflex bonuses to take proper advantage of evasion or human (or half-elf) for maximum possible wisdom. Human gives an extra feat, human versatility boost (UMD/saves).

I like stunning fist on such a build as with such a pimped out wisdom score the DC can get quite high with +10 stunners.

Feats (9 or 10):
Toughness
Stunning Fist
Weapon Finesse (synergy with evasion)

Extend Spell
Maximise
Quicken
(minimums for BB)

Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration

Heighten

And that would be it for the halfling build. I think the extra defense that the halfling build brings to the table would be the way to go for this build. It would be nice to fit empower and/or empower healing into the mix and possibly one of them has a higher priority than GSP (I would choose empower if going this way).

Starting stats:
Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 12
Ending stats (+2 tome for each, possible +6 item assumed, before grinding):
Str 14, Dex 26 (w/2 racial), Con 22, Int 10, 35 (18 base +2 stance +2 class +5 level ups +2 tome +6 item), Cha 22 (12 base +2 FvS +2 tome +6 item)

Cha is to cast heal while disjunctioned.

Skills: Concentration, extra monk points in balance, rest in jump
Not sure if I want UMD on this toon, I love UMD, but not sure how much utility it will get from it.

Am I going to have spell slot obstacles as a pure caster with the spell selection of an 18 FvS?
Thoughts/opinions?

[Adalita]

Firstly bear in mind that going from 16 to 18 WIS costs 6 build points which might be better spread around other stats. Thats fine for an evoker build but if your want to have any sort of melee ability I'd advise against it.

Secondly having evasion is nice, but having a metric truck load of SP*, better spell penetration and DCs, and access to more high level spells that you get from staying pure is IMO even better.

Thirdly I've not seen a monk splash FvS that effectively uses monk combat, except at lower levels. Remember you can't craft GS handwraps, and with only two levels of monk you will not get increasing hit-dice on unarmed, stances, finishing moves...etc that give a monk great DPS. Not saying that what you're doing can't work, I just can't see how it would.

My two favourite melee capable FvS are both by Impact:
Elf TWF wielding scimi with monk splash: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200561
Human TWF wielding longswords pure: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243539



*1 metric truck load = 1.536 imperial truck loads.

[Sibellya]

Firstly I'd be very wary of starting with 6 STR, one Ray of Enfeeblement and it's all over. If you don't mind LR'ing you should probably start with higher STR and lower WIS then respec around level 9 when you can get a +4 STR item and you've eaten your +2 tome.

I wouldn't bother with Empower Healing, and it's a tough call between Empower and GSP. Empower is more damage for your BBs while GSP improves your chances of landing Destro/Implo/Command.

The biggest problem with splashing in a caster build is the loss of two level 9 spell slots. As a splash you lose 2 spell pen that you have to make up by taking SP/GSP feats, while a pure FvS can use those feats on SF/GSF instead to make up the extra +1 DC the splash gets from Water Stance, so there's no real difference there. Only having a single level 9 spell is very unattractive IMO. A pure FvS only gets three level 9 spells and there are four that are useful:
- Implosion
- Energy Drain
- Mass Heal
- True Resurrection

If you're looking to be a caster, not just a healbot, then you'll want Implo and ED. Mass Heal is an excellent spell to have if you want to raid heal since its much more efficient then the Mass Cure spells; if you have pots to burn then maybe you could get away not having Mass Heal. True Rez is a nice spell to have in those "oh $*%@" situations when a tank goes down and you want to get him back up quick and at full HP.

So in summary by splashing you get a decent Stunning Fist and Evasion at the cost of only having a single level 9 spell and losing DR10 and unlimited free healing. Evasion is nice, but how often do you expect to get one-shotted by AOE damage? FvS can have a lot of HP, and being able to self-cast Quickened Heal effectively extends that red bar even further. I don't think it's a worthwhile trade.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Firstly bear in mind that going from 16 to 18 WIS costs 6 build points which might be better spread around other stats. Thats fine for an evoker build but if your want to have any sort of melee ability I'd advise against it.

Secondly having evasion is nice, but having a metric truck load of SP*, better spell penetration and DCs, and access to more high level spells that you get from staying pure is IMO even better.

Thirdly I've not seen a monk splash FvS that effectively uses monk combat, except at lower levels. Remember you can't craft GS handwraps, and with only two levels of monk you will not get increasing hit-dice on unarmed, stances, finishing moves...etc that give a monk great DPS. Not saying that what you're doing can't work, I just can't see how it would.

My two favourite melee capable FvS are both by Impact:
Elf TWF wielding scimi with monk splash: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200561
Human TWF wielding longswords pure: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243539



*1 metric truck load = 1.536 imperial truck loads.

- Actually, this build that I'm suggesting would have higher DCs courtesy of stacking +2 wisdom.
- Surely, a FvS is going to have multiple metric truckloads of SP anyway?
- I'm not planning to have proper melee DPS. However, weapon finesse allows stunning fist to hit which gives me and my party autocrits, handy when soloing against that last mob who wandered away when BB was up or to conserve SP in groups but still contribute to party DPS (by increasing other peoples DPS, not wrap DPS itself).

In short, I'm suggesting:
sacrifice:
-2 points of Spell Pen
-level 20 DR-
-capstone
-spell slots

Gain:
-higher DCs
-evasion
-AC
-auto-crit option

Questions: Will this pure wisdom build generate a useful stunning fist in epic content? (10+1+10+13 or more) If it is a bit short, would being dwarf rectify that? (+2 DC). I'm not attached specifically to the stun but thought it might be a nice option.

Note: Monk splash isn't to use melee (except maybe for the first few levels, hence no TWF feats or similar, it's taken for defense and for water stance increasing offense through higher DCs.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Firstly I'd be very wary of starting with 6 STR, one Ray of Enfeeblement and it's all over. If you don't mind LR'ing you should probably start with higher STR and lower WIS then respec around level 9 when you can get a +4 STR item and you've eaten your +2 tome.

I wouldn't bother with Empower Healing, and it's a tough call between Empower and GSP. Empower is more damage for your BBs while GSP improves your chances of landing Destro/Implo/Command.

The biggest problem with splashing in a caster build is the loss of two level 9 spell slots. As a splash you lose 2 spell pen that you have to make up by taking SP/GSP feats, while a pure FvS can use those feats on SF/GSF instead to make up the extra +1 DC the splash gets from Water Stance, so there's no real difference there. Only having a single level 9 spell is very unattractive IMO. A pure FvS only gets three level 9 spells and there are four that are useful:
- Implosion
- Energy Drain
- Mass Heal
- True Resurrection

If you're looking to be a caster, not just a healbot, then you'll want Implo and ED. Mass Heal is an excellent spell to have if you want to raid heal since its much more efficient then the Mass Cure spells; if you have pots to burn then maybe you could get away not having Mass Heal. True Rez is a nice spell to have in those "oh $*%@" situations when a tank goes down and you want to get him back up quick and at full HP.

So in summary by splashing you get a decent Stunning Fist and Evasion at the cost of only having a single level 9 spell and losing DR10 and unlimited free healing. Evasion is nice, but how often do you expect to get one-shotted by AOE damage? FvS can have a lot of HP, and being able to self-cast Quickened Heal effectively extends that red bar even further. I don't think it's a worthwhile trade.

These lost spell slots are exactly the reason that I'm agonising over the decision so much. Regarding SF/GSF vs water stance, there are 3 schools from which there are useful spells (off the top of my head): enchantment ((greater) command, hold person), evocation (implosion, blade barrier) and necromancy (destruction, slay living). +1 DC for these 3 schools is quite valuble, imo.

I'm not worried about true res, res will be fine or a scroll. In all likelyhood, mass heal would go in that level 9 slot so i would lose ED and implosion from my arsenal. I'm not sure how critical this is but I've not put either to all that much use on my cleric. I really appreciate the survivability of the monk splash, I'm really not sure that a pure FvS can top it.

[voodoogroves]

Before you set things in stone have a gander through your spell list and figure out what you plan on casting that has a save and/or needs a SR check.

You'll want to have some healing capability. Take those out and figure out what you'll actually be casting.

Agree on strength 6 being too low. Also your stunning fist is going to be pretty subpar ... with +10 stunners you will be at 11+10 wraps+wisdom...once you cap and get epic gear and push a wisdom over 40 it may get useful but probably not worth using for most of your career. All this assuming you generate enough ki to use it (which still require you to be in melee a fair amount). Two feats is a hefty investment for a single trick you might be able to use twice a rest.

[Adalita]

- Actually, this build that I'm suggesting would have higher DCs courtesy of stacking +2 wisdom.
- Surely, a FvS is going to have multiple metric truckloads of SP anyway?

18 lvls of FvS will have approximately 15% less SP than 20 lvls, assuming the same gear, enhancments, etc. They will also have the discussed lack of high level spells. From experience I can tell you will still be more than decent healer, but your direct damage/instakill capacity will suffer

[aristarchus1000]

When building a favored soul, I really recommend you try to focus the build. I've leveled up 4 fvs 12+, 2 to cap, one with monk splash and one without.

Trying to get both a good offensive casting and melee is really hard, and almost always results in a character that is not good enough in both.

Your approach is certainly interesting, dumping strength, but I don't think you will be happy with the build, both in the early levels as well as the later levels.

Stunning fist is nice, but I'm not sure your to hits will be high enough to hit anything in epic even with finesse.

I would start with dropping Wis to 16 and raising strength to 12. You should also take a look at Impaqt's "really good" build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200561) which is a pretty optimized monk splash build that tries to do everything in my opinion. You can adopt it into a halfling or a human. I think it is really powerful while leveling but gets weak once you hit epics, but by then you can re-evaluate and use an LR to swap out the monk levels if you like.

[Matuse]

In short, I'm suggesting:
sacrifice:
-2 points of Spell Pen
-level 20 DR-
-capstone
-spell slots

It helps to include actual numbers here.

Going from 20 to 18 as a FvS means you lose (assuming an Archmagi item and a +150 SP shroud item) 349 spellpoints. In comparison, my 20 FvS (with 22 cha) has 2754.

The 10 points of DR will save hundreds of spellpoints in self-healing alone.

1 8th level, 2 9th level spell slots.

Gain:
-higher DCs

One point higher.

-evasion

With only moderate dex, this will almost never actually go off.

-AC

Meaningless.

-auto-crit option

Also achieved with a pair of stunning light maces, or a Tenderizer.

Questions: Will this pure wisdom build generate a useful stunning fist in epic content? (10+1+10+13 or more) If it is a bit short, would being dwarf rectify that? (+2 DC). I'm not attached specifically to the stun but thought it might be a nice option.

When I group with monks who can achieve 40+ DC on their stunning blow, they can reliably get trash monsters.

Regarding SF/GSF vs water stance, there are 3 schools from which there are useful spells (off the top of my head): enchantment ((greater) command, hold person), evocation (implosion, blade barrier) and necromancy (destruction, slay living).

It all depends on what you want to do. You mention epic....a lot...and you should be aware that most of the spells you list do absolutely nothing in epic. The two that work at all (BB and Greater Command) don't work terribly well under most circumstances (Command), or the swing of a single point of save DC is not ever going to be noticed (BB).

In all likelyhood, mass heal would go in that level 9 slot so i would lose ED and implosion from my arsenal.

Energy Drain is particularly important for offensive casting in Epic, since you frequently need to geld their saves in order to land other stuff.

I really appreciate the survivability of the monk splash, I'm really not sure that a pure FvS can top it.

Trivially. If you've never played with 10 points of unbreakable DR, you really have no idea just how amazingly powerful this is.

Evasion is not going to be what you think it will be. With a 26 dex, and a +5 resistance item, you'll have a reflex save of 27 unbuffed. With Holy Aura and Recitation running, it'll bump to 33. Reflex checks on epic are DC50+. 15% (give or take) chance of evading is not going to save you very often.

6 strength is in fact WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too low. Doesn't matter how little you intend on meleeing, a single instance of Ray of Enfeeblement, and you're helpless. Party wipe.

[jsaving]

Will this pure wisdom build generate a useful stunning fist in epic content? (10+1+10+13 or more) If it is a bit short, would being dwarf rectify that? (+2 DC). I'm not attached specifically to the stun but thought it might be a nice option.

The pure wisdom build will get you a reasonable (though certainly not stellar) stun DC at endgame. The problem with your build will be landing the attack in the first place. You just won't be able to do so with any regularity on such a low-STR character, and all of the solutions to this problem -- reducing your wisdom, replacing a casting feat with weapon finesse, etc -- would weaken your case for doing the splash in the first place.

Am I going to have spell slot obstacles as a pure caster with the spell selection of an 18 FvS?

As others have said already, you absolutely will have spell slot obstacles as an 18/2. While ED and implosion aren't "necessary" for the kind of character you seem to be looking for, they certainly offer opportunities for nannybot-type characters to make situationally useful OC contributions at endgame (and epic for ED). Losing those opportunities can't help but offset some of the versatility you hope to gain from an 18/2 build.

I really appreciate the survivability of the monk splash, I'm really not sure that a pure FvS can top it.

I have an 18/2 as well as a pure FvS, and I completely agree that the monk splash gives you superb survivability at midgame. But the gap shrinks substantially at endgame, when the pure build is suddenly handed nigh-unbreakable DR 10 and (if Sovereign Host) unlimited curing.

To be fair, the "unlimited curing" doesn't come in especially large doses and the DR only blocks a small fraction of the kind of hits you'll be absorbing at endgame. But then again, the wisdom AC bonus won't matter at endgame (unless you have extraordinary gear) and evasion won't trigger as often as it used to, either.

The bottom line is that you won't go wrong with an 18/2 build or a pure build. I personally prefer the pure, mainly for the extra spell slots and unlimited curing, secondarily for the DR and "convenience factors" like better spell pen and more SP. But the 18/2 is a lot of fun to play too.

Good luck!