Is heighten worthwhile in endgame?

[djangonautic]

I currently have a Lvl 11 AM Drow Enchantment main spec'ed,Evocation secondary. I took heighten fairly early assuming that it would help with CC DC's, but so far i haven't really needed it. I have been looking at a lot of different enchanter AM's and don't really see heighten chosen that often. I'm wondering if i should switch it out for quicken, which i had not really considered as warranting a feat slot over heighten initially. I do plan on taking this toon into epics later on, so i'd like peoples opinion on which feat is more usefull

[Hobgoblin]

yes

im not speced for fts, and can land it fairly reliable in epics with heighten on, and not with it off

hob

[thegreatneil]

I took heighten a level 10.
An that felt like to long to wait.

[Vellrad]

My build is pretty messed up, and I don't have this feat, but I can't say that I really miss it.
Its because I don't cast any low level spells, because all of them have improved, higher level versions.
For example, web, which is, in most player's point of viev, best CC spell, and main (if not only reason) to take heighten and spell focus (conjuration) basically works the same as Otto's sphere of dancing- the differences are the detail- save type, duration, AoE radius etc.
Mass sugesstion is improved suggestion, dominate monster is improved dominate person (which is improved charm person) etc.
You need heighten or not, depends only on which spells are you going to use at endgame.
Mass hold monsters gets absolutely no benefits from said feat, OSoD gets +2 DC, and mentioned web, +7.
Archmages SLAs which posses DCs, however, are almost useless without heighten, and with this feat they are really worth of taking and using.

[mediocresurgeon]

Heighten is a must-have for any pure wizard.

[KillEveryone]

Some spells it won't raise the DC.

Some spells it may only raise the DC by 2.

Other spells it will raise the DC by 8.

While some spells such as Otto's Sphere may work well in some cases, it is not a lvl 9 spell. You may have a mass hold monster with a lvl 9 spell, but that doesn't work on everything, I've see air elementals listed as immune when I tried holding them with mass hold monster. In both cases of Mass Hold Monster and Otto's Sphere, these spells have a will save and won't work reliably against critters with a high will save. Web however will typically work on those same critters because of a different save but if you don't have heighten, it won't work reliably.

I like it. I find it handy. While leveling up I don't really use it much, once I hit lvl 15, I find myself turning it on more for some spells and I have it always on at lvl 20.

[aristarchus1000]

While leveling, not as much, but by level 15 you can get the improved metamagics for heighten, making it a lot more affordable. By level 20 it's almost required.

Web gets a +7 to DC reflex save, and is a reflexes save that doesn't require spell penetration. Ottos it's a +2 will save. FoD +2 fortitude, FtS +3 fortitude. You need different spells to target the weak saves of the mob.

Every last DC is important for the end game. Prior to level 15, i generally found my normal Otto's was enough and you can solo most of the quests with Wall of Fire anyway, which isn't save dependent.

[sweez]

My build is pretty messed up, and I don't have this feat, but I can't say that I really miss it.
Its because I don't cast any low level spells, because all of them have improved, higher level versions.

Pray tell, what is "end-game" for you?

For example, web, which is, in most player's point of viev, best CC spell, and main (if not only reason) to take heighten and spell focus (conjuration) basically works the same as Otto's sphere of dancing- the differences are the detail- save type, duration, AoE radius etc.

Oh and this little unimportant thing called "DC type". You know, the thing that's "will" for dancing ball and "reflex/str" for web? Casting time? Do you even play arcanes?

Also, web is the *only* reason people take heighten? Really? I assume you wail single mobs instead of fingering them?

[Zilta]

to be fair if you have heighten on wail costs nearly the same amount of sp as FoD. Still, by endgame you will generally want to have heighten, I personally almost never turn it off when I play my arcane, especially in epics.

[sephiroth1084]

Heighten is a must-have for any wizard who intends to cast spells that have DCs.

Fixed that for ya.

There are several spells that have DCs and are not 9th level that you will be casting semi-often. Not taking Heighten is a mistake. Pure and simple.

[sweez]

to be fair if you have heighten on wail costs nearly the same amount of sp as FoD.

Nearly, but not quite, especially with all the heighten enhancements wizards get. More importantly, it's on a different timer.

[Emili]

Epics are full of mass holds, fts and where those do not work you use "web" - think of epic claw for instance... without heighten on you'd never CC that quest.

[silvertrit]

Thropw in a difernt thought but...how much mana does it cost to use the feat?

[Zilta]

Off the top of my head heighten increases sp usage to the amount your highest lvl spell costs.

example:

you use heighten on web and have access to 7th level spells, the heightened web costs as much as an unmodified 7th level spell.

However there are enhancements you can take to drastically lower this.

off the top of my head I have no idea how it interacts with archmage spells

[frznvimes]

off the top of my head I have no idea how it interacts with archmage spells

It works on the SLAs like it would on the equivalent spell (except it's free). It does not work on arcane bolt/blast.

[sephiroth1084]

It should be noted that with 2 ranks of the enhancements and the wizard capstone, Heighten only costs 2 SP per level of increase. This translates for +1 DC/lvl for +2 SP/lvl, which is really excellent.

[Doxmaster]

The second rank of the enhancement is somewhat expensive, so I would consider the heighten increased cost to be 3 per spell level.

[frznvimes]

It's a bit expensive, but may be worth it depending on what spells you're using most.
I will now sling numbers around. I will not try to say what will save you the most sp, because that depends entirely on how often you're using what spells.

improved empower: costs 2/6/12 total ap, saves 2/4/6 total sp
improved maximize: costs 2/6/12 total ap, saves 3/6/9 total sp
improved heighten: costs 4/10 total ap, saves 1-8/2-16 total sp

Remember that lower level spells would give you savings that favor heighten, higher level spells would give you savings that favor maximize/empower. Also remember that heighten works on more spells. These are the empowerable/maximizable spells that heightening doesn't work on (I think this is complete and correct. I'm not going to list it the other way around because their are too many to be worth the bother):
9- meteor swarm
8- horrid wilting, polar ray, incendiary cloud
7-
6- acid fog
5-
4- wall of fire, ice storm, force missiles, acid rain
3- chain missiles
2- scorching ray, melf's acid arrow
1- magic missile

Now, let's look at the spell levels where imp heighten/maximize/empower would save you the same sp.

Improved heighten vs. improved maximize at level 17+
if you cast a 6th level spell with imp heighten I and imp maximize I, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 2 more ap here.
if you cast a 3rd level spell with imp heighten I and imp maximize II, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 2 fewer ap here.
if you cast a 6th level spell with imp heighten II and imp maximize II, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 4 more ap here.
if you cast a 4.5th level spell (in theory) with imp heighten II and imp maximize III, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 2 fewer ap here.

if you cast a 3th level spell with imp heighten II (ignoring I) and imp maximize I+II, they'd save you the same amount. Same ap cost.
if you cast a 6th level spell with imp heighten II (ignoring I) and imp maximize III (ignoring I+II), they'd save you the same amount. Same ap cost.

Improved heighten vs. improved empower at level 17+
if you cast a 7th level spell with imp heighten I and imp empower I, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 2 more ap here.
if you cast a 5th level spell with imp heighten I and imp empower II, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 2 fewer ap here.
if you cast a 7th level spell with imp heighten II and imp empower II, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 4 more ap here.
if you cast a 6th level spell with imp heighten II and imp empower III, they'd save you the same amount. Heighten costs 2 fewer ap here.

if you cast a 5th level spell with imp heighten II (ignoring I) and imp empower I+II, they'd save you the same amount. Same ap cost.
if you cast a 7th level spell with imp heighten II (ignoring I) and imp empower III (ignoring I+II), they'd save you the same amount. Same ap cost.

[Kinerd]

It works on the SLAs like it would on the equivalent spell (except it's free). It does not work on arcane bolt/blast.

The bolded part is a(nother) huge reason to get heighten on an archmage, and needed to be repeated.

[Vellrad]

Pray tell, what is "end-game" for you?

Lately I've been doing mainly house P epics, and Shroud once/3 days.

Oh and this little unimportant thing called "DC type". You know, the thing that's "will" for dancing ball and "reflex/str" for web? Casting time? Do you even play arcanes?

Also, web is the *only* reason people take heighten? Really? I assume you wail single mobs instead of fingering them?

Yeah, I wail single mob, (it cost the same as heighten fod) but more oftem, I hold them.
I find web useable only on caster types mobs, and I still think that Otto's Irresistible Dance is beter at them than web, because there is no save at all. There quite long cooldown on this spell, I admit, but I've never seen more than 2 casters with high will saves, and second one gets hit with epic big top. Yeah, I know that not everyone got EBT, but notice, that I never said that heighten is useless, I just said that I'm doing fine without it. There is no feat IMO, which is mandatory for anyone.