make 0 con and 0 str actually work properly

[IAmDesolator3]

Dunno if anyone noticed but if you hold a monster and wail on it with a puncturing dagger and do even 200 constitution damage, the monster doesn't die. I assume that's because, to inflate the HP while not throwing fort saves through the roof, Turbine added special HP boosting feats and other tricks to monsters instead of relying purely on constitution for HP.

Well, in the shroud, if I hold a devil, I should be able to 0 con kill him. And if I use an enfeebling weapon like my brand new Epic Spy Dagger, I should be able to drop something to 0 str and have it stop swinging at me! If I get 0 str, I can't use any items or swing my weapons or cast spells. And if get 0 con, I die. Why should monsters be so special?

Who cares if this encroaches on dreamspitter territory a tiny bit? That thing's pretty annoying to get anyway and you use it almost exclusively for epic quests. On epic, about 75-90% of attempts to drop any epic mob's stats fails automatically due to epic ward so puncturing and enfeebling wouldn't help kill epic mobs. There, everyone's happy. So change it! (and then put a save on ray of enfeeblement or everyone would alternate between natural casts and a wand of it to make a high level monster helpless in seconds)

[sephiroth1084]

Con damage was changed about a year and a half ago (?) to no longer kill monsters at 0 Con because Con-damaging weapons had eclipsed basically every feature, feat and property that didn't directly contribute to dealing more Con damage. TWF, alacrity bonuses and improved critical were all that mattered vs. a lot of content.

Rather than changing the weapons themselves, the devs made the change to the way Con damage functioned.

[Scarecrow9]

i believe that change came around update 7, maybe a bit b4. instead of auto kill it now gives auto crits for a period, and if it makes any diff to you i believe it doesnt go below 1....tho that still should be too low for much of anything agreed in theory

[Quarterling]

Actually, I got to 0 con once and was basically stunned "free crits on me".

If I remember correctly, a long time ago, zero con to a monster did kill them instantly and if they were brought down to zero str, you would get free crits. Those were the days...

[Bobthesponge]

0 con was changed to not kill because wounding+puncturing weapons were so ridiculously overpowered the game became unbalanced. you saw WP rapiers on the AH for 2 Million plus plat. it made it far too easy to kill stuff.

[sephiroth1084]

Those were the days...

Yes, those were the days of barbarians using dual rapiers because Wounding of Puncturing was more efficient at killing stuff than hitting things with a big 2-hander while raged. Those were the days where weapon effects and DPS-oriented class features only meant anything vs. bosses.

Yeah, those were the days...

[IAmDesolator3]

oh wow. Well the last thing Orien needs is a more powerful Desolator rofl. So I guess if it's a quick as a sounds, it was worth changing. So does anyone know every last specific about how it works now? Like if it drops HP at all or not? Or just fort saves?

Oh and how do you feel about 0 str = helpless? I freakin wailed on a turned to stone epic illusionary guard with my epic dagger and he must have dropped to 0 str even with his natural severe resistance to stat damage. After he finally got out of the stone, he couldn't hit me with a single swing and I have 19 AC lol. So they're already "helpless" but those stupid casters need to give it a rest if I 0 str em.

[Gelmir87]

Reducing something to 0 in any stat puts them into Helpless Mode and forces auto-crits for about 20 second. After this, they can perform normal task, but at reduced ability depending on the stat.

0 CON does reduce HP as HP is CON dependent and it also lowers Fort Saves.

0 STR does cause Helpless and forces attacks based on STR to make their attack roll or miss, and it also affects damage.

[redoubt]

Con damage was changed about a year and a half ago (?) to no longer kill monsters at 0 Con because Con-damaging weapons had eclipsed basically every feature, feat and property that didn't directly contribute to dealing more Con damage. TWF, alacrity bonuses and improved critical were all that mattered vs. a lot of content.

Rather than changing the weapons themselves, the devs made the change to the way Con damage functioned.

This is correct. And this is why it was changed.

That said, I'd love to see 0 con = death again. Sure back then speed was king. Now there is simply a different king. That kings name is HP/DPS. Its not any better now. Its just different. (And the different nerfs dex builds in a big way, because not only can you not get enough AC to matter in the mass heal dps is king end game, but stat and effect damage has not taken a double nerf with the nerf to off hand proc rates...)

[sephiroth1084]

This is correct. And this is why it was changed.

That said, I'd love to see 0 con = death again. Sure back then speed was king. Now there is simply a different king. That kings name is HP/DPS. Its not any better now. Its just different. (And the different nerfs dex builds in a big way, because not only can you not get enough AC to matter in the mass heal dps is king end game, but stat and effect damage has not taken a double nerf with the nerf to off hand proc rates...)

I'd argue that DPS is not the same thing as Con damage. For one thing, all the melee classes have ways to improve their DPS, which do not necessarily benefit WoPs in any way, which was the problem originally. The only part of Kensai that would be worthwhile would be the tier 3 expanded crit range and the extra action boosts for more Haste Boost; Favored Enemy, Frenzied Berserker, Divine Might, Rage, Sneak Attack, Arcane Archer, the defender PrEs, Power Attack, Wall of Fire, Polar Ray, DBF...none of these mattered if you were in a group with even a couple of other characters set-up to utilize WoP weapons to their fullest.

Believe me, I know what it was like to be in a group where you had decent DPS, but it didn't matter because you weren't using WoPs, and were therefore not contributing to killing anything at all, except in that you were likely drawing all of the aggro.

There are many more ways to deal damage in DDO than to improve the use of WoPs, and in content where WoPs work, nothing else really matters. We do not need to go back to those days. Particularly since the only other thing that was really altered by this change was Cloudkill, and I can't recall actually killing stuff outright with that spell very often anyway.

[VinchenzoTJackal]

/signed only because I agree the current system is broken AND needs replacement with proper D&D rules.

In my opinion 0 CON and 0 STR would work properly if the following happened.
0 Con, for creatures that have the Con Stat having 0 CON will reduce the individuals HP to 1 (unless they have feats such as toughness or items that boost HP amount) This will mean all creatures reduced to 0 CON will have 1 HP to as much as maybe 20 HP if they have enhancements and other aids. They should also fail any saves and checks using CON.
0 STR would reduce the individuals base damage to -6. Meaning that a Fighter wielding a weapon such as a ordinary rapier could not do ANY damage. It would also mean they would have their attack bonus reduced to -6, meaning they have almost no chance of hitting anyone or anything without magical aid and such. They should also become overencumbered and not able to move if they carry over 1 pound of equipment or more. So everyone would need to run around naked, unarmed, and unburdened if they wish to circumvent this horrid tragedy. They would also fail any saves and checks that use STR.
This would be normal basic rules that DDO should remember to implement sometime someday. More advanced rules would have even more extreme penalties and be implemented only if the DDO staff deem it needed.

[ArloOne]

It is true they made the change. For those of you not around when wounding and puncturing ruled the world you have no idea how huge a nerf it was.
that being said.

Take your wounding and puncturing weapons..throw a force burst or icy burst upgrade on them..and viola'...you will get somewhat the same effect as it used to be.

The weakening and enfeebling does still have a benefit. Excellent versus beholders and mindflayers..just throw some force or icy bursts on them and bump up the damage output as well.

Just my opinion...