Black Lotus - Unarmed Assassin

[Tinco]

I roll this concept with a more balanced approach - a Rog13/Monk6/Ranger1 split. I lack the Autovorpal and 3d6 Sneak but with slightly higher HP, always-on 25% incorporeality and very fast movement speed (Ranger Sprint boost/Monk6) it's very, very durable/quick for a Rogue. Plus you get some more Monk goodies like tier 2 stances/strikes and an FE as well as easy cure wand use at lower levels.

I'd really like to try out your split but it seems to me that 19rog/mnk1 works best when you have access to great equipment to overcome the survivability weaknesses and you want to go all out on DPS. There is nothing more enjoying for me in this game than seeing a Lotus hammering a boss with hasteboost IV.

[moorewr]

I roll this concept with a more balanced approach - a Rog13/Monk6/Ranger1 split. I lack the Autovorpal and 3d6 Sneak but with slightly higher HP, always-on 25% incorporeality and very fast movement speed (Ranger Sprint boost/Monk6) it's very, very durable/quick for a Rogue. Plus you get some more Monk goodies like tier 2 stances/strikes and an FE as well as easy cure wand use at lower levels.

I'd really like to try out your split but it seems to me that 19rog/mnk1 works best when you have access to great equipment to overcome the survivability weaknesses and you want to go all out on DPS. There is nothing more enjoying for me in this game than seeing a Lotus hammering a boss with hasteboost IV.

Gear on the 19/1 split.. baseline would be
Icy Raiment or DT dodge/prot vestments
Radiance rapier or kama

optimal gear would require ToD rings and epic handwraps..

[Tinco]

I think that the 19/1 Split has enough survivability for some people even with weaker equipment. It's more a personal thing that I like a bit more than that. And it's pretty much undebatable that Ninja Spy I has one of the best defensive abilities in the game. Yes, it's a tradeoff away from pure dps and I know that's something that's not really en vogue these days but for me and my style of play (as well as for others probably) it's not a bad one. The dps difference is actually smaller than 3d6 with Earth Strike II, Fists of Darkness, FE (Evil outsider) and d8 base unarmed damage. The main difference is Autovorpal + some DPS + 2 to all skills vs. Shadow Fade + Movement Speed+ 2 feats which is (imo) more a question of playstyle than anything else.

[Blank_Zero]

Just posting to ask, with the U9 Epic Reboot, how viable does this remain? Thinking of rolling it up/TRing my monk into it and was hoping for some insight before going for it.

[erikbozelie]

unarmed = 259.1
twf = 290.1

it is closer then that.

khopeshes are weaker then unarmed strikes if you can get your strength high enough.


with 60 strength your 1d6 unarmed strikes is the same as 1d6 khopeshes because you get your full strength mod on off hand attacks.

explanation of sheet is here

[erikbozelie]

lets asume 40 strength(your missing yugo pot and shrine) 15 mod.
1d6 handwraps(19-20X2) vs 1d8 khopesh(17-20X3).

khopesh(4.5) is 140% crit damage: (6.3 average on 100 hits) / strength times 1,5.
unarmed(3.5) is 110% crit damage: (3.85 average on 100 hits) / strength times 2.

With rogue haste boost IV and haste, this works out to:

unarmed = 145.7
twf = 133.4

100% off hand proc.
(145.7 hpm unarmed *200% ) * (3.85 + 15str) divided over 60 seconds = 91.5 //261.48 with 10d6(35) sa
(133.4 hpm khopesh* (6.3 + 15str)) + (133.4 hpm khopesh* (6.3 + 7str)) divided over 60 seconds = 76.93 //294.8 with 14d6 sa(49)

80% off hand proc
(145.7 hpm unarmed *180% ) * (3.85 + 15str) divided over 60 seconds = 82.39 //235.375 with 10d6(35) sa
(133.4 hpm khopesh* (6.3 + 15str)) + (106.72*0.8 hpm khopesh* (6.3 + 7str)) divided over 60 seconds = 71 //267 with 14d6(49) sa

if you didnt lost he capstone, unarmed would win
also if you lose all sa(fortification) unarmed wins!

[DnD3]

Was thinking about this build, seems like it would be pretty solid, with the changes in update 9 to vorpal it would be even better as it has faster proc rate for the 100 damage, though with Sneack attack being increased as well in epics when enemy held I'm wondering by how much a pure rogue with rapier twf would out dps unarmed.

[Narzic]

though with Sneack attack being increased as well in epics when enemy held

actually to my knowledge SA is currently not being increased.

[DnD3]

Hmm according to the wiki it seems ALL damage is being increase not just base and sneack, so monks will get more holy and shock damage on top of sneack attack, if it applies to vorpals 100 on update 9, assassin 3 should favor monks more than rogues, wonder by how much.

[krogyy]

Hmm according to the wiki it seems ALL damage is being increase not just base and sneack, so monks will get more holy and shock damage on top of sneack attack, if it applies to vorpals 100 on update 9, assassin 3 should favor monks more than rogues, wonder by how much.

it is a bit complicated to predict how things will change in U9, things are still subject to change. but at the moment it looks like U9 will be very favorable to this build

to summarize of the changes (for the better) relative to a pure rogues:

- it appears that sneaks are not increased by 50% in the test server but it's not know if it's WAI. since pures get more SA even accounting to increased unarmed attack speed that's a plus relative to pure (a big minus relative to all other builds tough)

- vorpal change

- no more auto hit vs helpless, it will be hard to hit things in U9 epics. this build has +2-4 more to-hit than pure

- no need to make the monk splash useless by equipping picks

i can not think any way a pure rogue is better off in U9 in relative terms.

probably i'll post a U9 variant once it hits live and we know all details, looking forward to it.

[moorewr]

actually to my knowledge SA is currently not being increased.

Hmm according to the wiki it seems ALL damage is being increase not just base and sneack, so monks will get more holy and shock damage on top of sneack attack, if it applies to vorpals 100 on update 9, assassin 3 should favor monks more than rogues, wonder by how much.

On the current build live on Lamannia SA is not increased. Proof that the devs hate us and want us to be unhappy?

That said, with the increase in base damage v. helpless, even without it increasing SA damage, and the damage effect from vorpal effects I am confident in rogue DPS come U9 - and this includes a fully equipped rogue/monk build...

[Blank_Zero]

Why not have multiple weapons?

Wraps are amazing with the ToD rings, however, why not have Khopesh too?

[wax_on_wax_off]

it is a bit complicated to predict how things will change in U9, things are still subject to change. but at the moment it looks like U9 will be very favorable to this build

to summarize of the changes (for the better) relative to a pure rogues:

- it appears that sneaks are not increased by 50% in the test server but it's not know if it's WAI. since pures get more SA even accounting to increased unarmed attack speed that's a plus relative to pure (a big minus relative to all other builds tough)

- vorpal change

- no more auto hit vs helpless, it will be hard to hit things in U9 epics. this build has +2-4 more to-hit than pure

- no need to make the monk splash useless by equipping picks

i can not think any way a pure rogue is better off in U9 in relative terms.

probably i'll post a U9 variant once it hits live and we know all details, looking forward to it.

You missed the best thing that stunning fist will now be based off character levels instead of monk levels.

Stunning fist for all!

I'm really liking this build modified for U9 to take advantage of stunning fist. I'm thinking half-elf with fighter dilettante though this makes feats tighter (give up SF:UMD for stunning fist, take a second monk level for +1 wisdom and stunning blow to open stunning blow enhancements).

With this combination we can hit 40 stunning fist DC easily though losing a bit of DPS from less sneak attack. Half-orc is another option and will enjoy the 10 haste boosts. Dwarf and WF could be nice for tactics. Trying to find the balance between DPS and stunning DCs will be the tricky point.

18 or 19 rogue? A second level of monk gives +1 wisdom and another feat. A level of fighter gives +1 stunning blow enhancements, first toughness enhancement and a feat. A level of ranger gives +3 damage vs evil outsiders.

Target stunning fist DC? 40 is achievable by a half-elf rogue 18, monk 2 with fighter dilettante and basic gear. 38 by halfling and half-orc with comparable gear and 1 fighter / 1 monk / 18 rogue split. 41 by dwarf, 40 by warforged. Stunning Blow is decent on all of these builds with temporary boosts and often required to unlock enhancement lines. Halfling or Half-orc without stunning blow and with 19 rogue / 1 monk can have a DC 37 stunning fist with basic gear (these are the max DPS options). By basic gear I mean +10 stunning wraps, +2 tome, +6 item, +2 ship buff, 14 starting stat (12 for warforged). +3 exceptional, +4 tome, +7 epic wisdom item, +2 yugo can see DCs of 44-45 depending on race/build choice (I don't know off the top of my head where to get a +7 epic wisdom item though).

Especially when you consider that crippling strike will do 3 strength damage vs helpless (stunned) targets it will be simple to disable enemies 2 at a time. When enemies are stunned or at 0 strength the DPS will be obscene (~250 or so just from sneak attack against 0 fort enemies). Throw in a decent AC (better than your wisdom dumped build) and all around it will be a sweet build.

I'm going to roll into something similar for a monk TR. The tricky thing for me will be deciding if I want a 12-14 starting intelligence for a decent assassinate DC or if I should just dump it. Still up in the air. Maybe half-orc with 18, 15, 14, 6, 16, 6 for maximum AC/DPS or half-elf with 15, 15, 14, 14, 14, 8 for versatility.

[krogyy]

You missed the best thing that stunning fist will now be based off character levels instead of monk levels.

Stunning fist for all!

I'm really liking this build modified for U9 to take advantage of stunning fist. I'm thinking half-elf with fighter dilettante though this makes feats tighter (give up SF:UMD for stunning fist, take a second monk level for +1 wisdom and stunning blow to open stunning blow enhancements).

With this combination we can hit 40 stunning fist DC easily though losing a bit of DPS from less sneak attack. Half-orc is another option and will enjoy the 10 haste boosts. Dwarf and WF could be nice for tactics. Trying to find the balance between DPS and stunning DCs will be the tricky point.

18 or 19 rogue? A second level of monk gives +1 wisdom and another feat. A level of fighter gives +1 stunning blow enhancements, first toughness enhancement and a feat. A level of ranger gives +3 damage vs evil outsiders.

Target stunning fist DC? 40 is achievable by a half-elf rogue 18, monk 2 with fighter dilettante and basic gear. 38 by halfling and half-orc with comparable gear and 1 fighter / 1 monk / 18 rogue split. 41 by dwarf, 40 by warforged. Stunning Blow is decent on all of these builds with temporary boosts and often required to unlock enhancement lines. Halfling or Half-orc without stunning blow and with 19 rogue / 1 monk can have a DC 37 stunning fist with basic gear (these are the max DPS options). By basic gear I mean +10 stunning wraps, +2 tome, +6 item, +2 ship buff, 14 starting stat (12 for warforged). +3 exceptional, +4 tome, +7 epic wisdom item, +2 yugo can see DCs of 44-45 depending on race/build choice (I don't know off the top of my head where to get a +7 epic wisdom item though).

Especially when you consider that crippling strike will do 3 strength damage vs helpless (stunned) targets it will be simple to disable enemies 2 at a time. When enemies are stunned or at 0 strength the DPS will be obscene (~250 or so just from sneak attack against 0 fort enemies). Throw in a decent AC (better than your wisdom dumped build) and all around it will be a sweet build.

I'm going to roll into something similar for a monk TR. The tricky thing for me will be deciding if I want a 12-14 starting intelligence for a decent assassinate DC or if I should just dump it. Still up in the air. Maybe half-orc with 18, 15, 14, 6, 16, 6 for maximum AC/DPS or half-elf with 15, 15, 14, 14, 14, 8 for versatility.

indeed, i was thinking about Stunning fist when talking about updating the build for U9.

besides, i think Dwarf would be a better fit than half-elf for a max DC route. either 19 rog/1 mnk or 18 rog/1 mnk/1 fgt with stat distribution 16/15/16/8/14/6. you get much better saves on top of that too.

after i get some key equipment i will TR my halfling. but if sneak end up not benefitting from helpless i may try a different build (but still unarmed, not going to throw away all these wraps i collected).

[wax_on_wax_off]

indeed, i was thinking about Stunning fist when talking about updating the build for U9.

besides, i think Dwarf would be a better fit than half-elf for a max DC route. either 19 rog/1 mnk or 18 rog/1 mnk/1 fgt with stat distribution 16/15/16/8/14/6. you get much better saves on top of that too.

after i get some key equipment i will TR my halfling. but if sneak end up not benefitting from helpless i may try a different build (but still unarmed, not going to throw away all these wraps i collected).

You've only used 30 build points there. For my (and maybe your) TR 16/15/14/8/16/8 (before racials) might be a good approach. That would see a DC 41 stunning fist for a half-elf and 42 for dwarf. To get that DC however, a dwarf will have to spend 12 AP on tactics and 1 AP on stunning blow enhancement compared to 3 AP for stunning blow and 6 AP for +2 wisdom for half-elf. Additionally, the half-elf gets more utility from the wisdom and has +2 strength in comparison (from adaptability and fighter strength I). Finally, half-elf has access to human versatility: damage which will give a DPS boost when used with quickdraw.

Perhaps the real question is 19 or 18 rogue. Feats wise, it's possible to fit them all in as a 19 dwarf rogue and have the same DC as the half-elf but not be able to fit in quickdraw and stunning blow at the same time. I'm not sure what the DPS payoff is on quickdraw. Stunning blow is worthwhile as stunning wraps are equipped, DC is boosted, low fort mobs are vulnerable and it can be temporarily boosted. Any other feats that could be dumped?

[Stillwaters]

Here's a build i wouldn't mind having some strong build guru's look at:
Half elf taken mainly so i can double spam diplomacy to remove the huge hate these things generate.
Respect given to the OP, and WAX ON WAX OFF for their ideas

Snip moved to post #85

[krogyy]

Here's a build i wouldn't mind having some strong build guru's look at:
Monk was taken at 1 to maintain the flavor of the design (rogue nets more skill points but less durability @ lvl 1)
Half elf taken mainly so i can double spam diplomacy to remove the huge hate these things generate.
Respect given to the OP, and WAX ON WAX OFF for their ideas

beware that with a starting 14 str and missing the halfling cunning your to-hit will be significantly lower. (-2/-5 with and without aggro).

that should not be an issue in normal questing but in some epics you may end up see a lot of misses floating around.

[Stillwaters]

I'm pretty sure that my hit % wont be noticed THAT much in epic (I know i'm going to miss halfling cunning tho), also in epics especially its important for a low hp char not to be taking the aggro and moreso now that HVY fort doesnt save you from extra damage when held/stunned etc.

TY for having a look at it krogyy

[Selwyndor]

Hi guys,

How are your thoughts coming on these decisions? I'm just returning to DDO after a long hiatus and I've been bouncing between pure monk and black lotus idea for some time unable to commit. In your opinions, would a 32 point build play decent (although with lower DCs) or do you feel this is best left for a TR?

I'm anxiously waiting to hear more!

You've only used 30 build points there. For my (and maybe your) TR 16/15/14/8/16/8 (before racials) might be a good approach. That would see a DC 41 stunning fist for a half-elf and 42 for dwarf. To get that DC however, a dwarf will have to spend 12 AP on tactics and 1 AP on stunning blow enhancement compared to 3 AP for stunning blow and 6 AP for +2 wisdom for half-elf. Additionally, the half-elf gets more utility from the wisdom and has +2 strength in comparison (from adaptability and fighter strength I). Finally, half-elf has access to human versatility: damage which will give a DPS boost when used with quickdraw.

Perhaps the real question is 19 or 18 rogue. Feats wise, it's possible to fit them all in as a 19 dwarf rogue and have the same DC as the half-elf but not be able to fit in quickdraw and stunning blow at the same time. I'm not sure what the DPS payoff is on quickdraw. Stunning blow is worthwhile as stunning wraps are equipped, DC is boosted, low fort mobs are vulnerable and it can be temporarily boosted. Any other feats that could be dumped?

[Blank_Zero]

I've been seriously considering an 18 rogue/1 fighter/ 1 monk for my pure monk to TR into. U9 screwed me over badly =P