Epic Scroll rolling on Argonnessen

[ddoer]

There are a few threads on the other servers' forum about the new scroll etiquette recently. I'd like to share my views as well as asking for the general practice of large guilds on our server.

Some posts on the other servers' forum are as follows:

• Post u8: Epic Scrolls
• new epic scroll etiquette?
• dear Khyber, are you going to force a 2nd roll on epic scrolls?

I actually ran in pug group that use the new roll on scroll etiquette. In my opinion:

1. A 2nd roll is redundant because the scrolls are drop randomly to a party member. The randomness is conceptually a rolling already. It's a waste of time to roll again.
   
   
2. it hurts the feeling of the one who desperately want a particular scroll and have the fortune that the scroll drop to his pocket, but he has to put it up for roll. It is against human nature, given that a 2nd rolling isn't more fair than Turbine's random dropping
   
   
3. "need before greed"? most people who play this game are adult and I don't think anyone should execute the "need before greed" with a rule. any mature person will do so if they like the concept but shouldn't be forced to do so by a rule set by other game players. You could choose not to play with those people who don't share the same etiquette as you do.
   
   "need before greed" is a view that benefit veteran players who has 18 toons of different classes (sounds like your group leader?) and have needs of every single scroll, but not to a new player with 1-2 toons shouldn't need most of the scrolls and may not be allowed to roll on most scrolls. Is it sounds like cheating?
   
   Scroll can be traded, i.e. if you own a useful scroll, you could use it to trade for another scroll that you need. It's just like large scale. Let me quote a post from sirgog:
   
   

   Anyone that tries to force you to put a scroll that dropped into your inventory up for roll is trying to cheat you. Deal with them exactly as you would if they told you in Shroud 'give me that Large Scale or I'll get my guild to blacklist you'.

   You could live in your Utopian and wish people are not greedy. Most people I play with in this game are actually not greedy. But when you label other people as greedy with your own standard, and require other people to follow your fair rule to share stuff, it is communism. You don't respect private property.
   
   
4. after you spent 7 days farming your cloak scroll in e-chrono, you tell your guildies you have made it. Then, on the next day you go to raid and a cloak scroll is dropped to your inventory. Sorry, everyone knows you have one already and you are greedy if you take it or even roll on it. Using an unreasonable etiquette will encourage people to lie and hide their stuff. It is not fair to people who put efforts in farming scroll.
   
   
5. when you run 4 guildies and 1 pug in a Red Fens quest, a bracer scroll and a gloves scroll are dropped, you got the gloves scroll, and the pug guy get the other scroll. Given there is an etiquette in your guild, you put the scroll up for roll. You do it right. (and you have to do it right because you will run with your guild again) Now, imagine, the pug guy win your scroll, and you ask "what's the roll for the other scroll", then he tells you, "i actually have the seal and shard for both the gloves and bracer, but i'll put it up for roll, let's roll d101", then DC'd.
   
   The "etiquette" benefit pug players. If it is an established rule for the server, I think most guild run will just shortman any quest instead of taking unknown pug players.
   
   Edited: also a pug player may just roll on everything. you don't expect they follow any "need before greed" etiquette.
   
   
6. There was an argument for the barb with +4 Cha tome cases that a quest is a team effort so you can't just say "your loot is your loot". Scroll is not be binding at all. If the team effort argument is valid, should it also apply to large scale? how about if your second large scale in a shroud run? how about any seal and shard? why the rolling rule only apply to scroll but not other stuff?
   
   
7. My guild has an established rule that, one can keep any seal/shard that drop in his/her chest (i.e. no particular rule to force people to put things up for roll), but everyone could win up to one seal and shard that are put up for roll by others in a run. This rule is perfectly fair and reasonable to me as it affects only extra seal/shard that are not suppose to be mine anyway.
   
   Now, should the same rule apply to scroll as well? i.e. every scroll has to be put up for roll and one could win only one scroll. if it does, it is just like every seal and shard have to be put up for roll and you can win only one. I wouldn't describe it as "fair" but will only use the term "equal" as it tends to make everyone get equal number of stuff. (see point 3 about vet players)
   
   Notice that scroll doesn't always drop in every quest. If more than one scroll is dropped, it is unlikely a person will get 2 scroll because the drop is by random. So we spend extra time to roll for every scroll for 95-98% cases for the "fairness" in the remain 2-5% cases.

Notice that, without any rule to force people to roll, people who don't need a scroll will still voluntarily put their scroll up for roll.

Now, I'm interested to know how large guilds or pug group leaders deal with this issue?

[Glenalth]

Personally...

You looted it, it's yours.

However, if it's something you aren't looking to build please offer it to the party. I'll do the same.

[phalaeo]

Personally...

You looted it, it's yours.

However, if it's something you aren't looking to build please offer it to the party. I'll do the same.

Exactly. If I'm not going to use it, I'm putting it up for roll.

[Yaga_Nub]

Personally...

You looted it, it's yours.

However, if it's something you aren't looking to build please offer it to the party. I'll do the same.

Actually, YOU didn't loot it. The computer put it in a random inventory. There is a big difference. And everyone that's saying it's the same as a chest drop aren't really thinking about what they are saying. They are just trying to make it OK for them to feel good about keeping every scroll that they get. Gordon Gecko is alive and well in DDO it seems.

Having said that, who cares about this. Each time you get in a party everyone in the party can either decide what they will do for that party or not say a word. If you don't say a word then it's your own fault for not speaking up if you don't like the current system.

[Nick_RC]

Second roll is redundant.

Its ur loot as far as I am concerned.Second roll just slows things down for no reason. Give it away, AH it, trade it I couldnt care less essentially its ur loot now. That is how I will be playing it and any groups I run.

N

Edit: If I somehow got real lucky and won 2 -3 'I personally' would likely pass off the other ones to member in the group. Ur loot is ur loot but it gets to a point where ur just a ****.

[landona54]

Scroll rate drops are rare, anyone want to tell me the last time they were on an E-chrono that dropped more than 4 scrolls. With this in mind, if DDO decides to randomly give u a 2nd or 3rd scroll out of those limited drops. The person with this fortune should choose which scroll to keep and which one to put up for roll. However this differs from seal drops, noone has ever said to anyone hey u just pulled 2 seals out of the first two chests, yet u are looting the seal that just dropped for u in chest number 4. My thought process is, I will never put a 12 man raid thru a run where I horde the randomness of ddo scroll drops to myself and since I control the star in 80% of the epics I run, I can have an influence on my party members to have the same courtesy as myself. Trust me ask any guildy of mine...I enjoy my soapbox very well in guild and out. However in a pug, if person A loots 2 scrolls and keeps both and I get my 2nd scroll....mine is going up for roll without a mention of the first incident. It is wrong to not practice what u preach, no matter the situation.

[Cianos_Fanas]

Actually, YOU didn't loot it. The computer put it in a random inventory. There is a big difference. And everyone that's saying it's the same as a chest drop aren't really thinking about what they are saying. They are just trying to make it OK for them to feel good about keeping every scroll that they get. Gordon Gecko is alive and well in DDO it seems.

Having said that, who cares about this. Each time you get in a party everyone in the party can either decide what they will do for that party or not say a word. If you don't say a word then it's your own fault for not speaking up if you don't like the current system.

Agreed Yaga. Personally, I feel that if its to be treated just like chest loot then put the damned things in a chest and be done with all this bs. At least people have a general understanding of how chest loot is to be treated. However, I know Turbine will probably never address the problem that this has caused so I'll just go along with the opinion of the groups that I join.

[Lorz]

Actually, YOU didn't loot it. The computer put it in a random inventory. There is a big difference. And everyone that's saying it's the same as a chest drop aren't really thinking about what they are saying. They are just trying to make it OK for them to feel good about keeping every scroll that they get. Gordon Gecko is alive and well in DDO it seems.

Having said that, who cares about this. Each time you get in a party everyone in the party can either decide what they will do for that party or not say a word. If you don't say a word then it's your own fault for not speaking up if you don't like the current system.

Actually you did loot it. Your just trying to lay claim to others loot....the system has done the roll just like it does when people /roll d100. Your trying to claim that the old way is better but it wasn't...just like the really old loot system with the party leader handing out the named items was severly flawed. Try to hide behind your claims of greed...but those of us who put things up for others will still do so...and those who want to keep a scroll will now not be pressured or coerced into doing so....you seem to totally miss that injustice with your blind eye and claims of greed.


And now with your claims it's not fair or not as good show that you simply want to lay claim to others loot.

Your loot is your loot. I wont even ask about it. But you...you will covet anothers, you will lay claim to that which is not yours. You are one of tho who wants to take from another and then call others greedy....nice hypocrite nice.

[Jonny_D]

Actually, YOU didn't loot it. The computer put it in a random inventory. There is a big difference. And everyone that's saying it's the same as a chest drop aren't really thinking about what they are saying. They are just trying to make it OK for them to feel good about keeping every scroll that they get. Gordon Gecko is alive and well in DDO it seems.

Having said that, who cares about this. Each time you get in a party everyone in the party can either decide what they will do for that party or not say a word. If you don't say a word then it's your own fault for not speaking up if you don't like the current system.

But Yaga, it is just like what drops in chests for people. the loot is randomly generated and assigned to players. just like chests the scrolls arent bound you can trade them, they have a market value outside of chests. I think every scroll should have been rolled on before U8 but they werent.
The flip side of your arguement is that people just want loot that the game assigned to them, the scale analogy its well. scales are rare nonbound and and every one wishes they would get a chance to roll on scales if they had a chance. the new system promotes generosity because I can now give a scroll to someone who needs it if i choose or put it up for roll if i already have every scroll i need, the old system promoted greed and lying, I have been on several runs where scrolls dropped and were looted yet no one had the scroll in their inventory and its so annoying to see.

[transtemporal]

But Yaga, it is just like what drops in chests for people. the loot is randomly generated and assigned to players. just like chests the scrolls arent bound you can trade them, they have a market value outside of chests. I think every scroll should have been rolled on before U8 but they werent.
The flip side of your arguement is that people just want loot that the game assigned to them, the scale analogy its well. scales are rare nonbound and and every one wishes they would get a chance to roll on scales if they had a chance. the new system promotes generosity because I can now give a scroll to someone who needs it if i choose or put it up for roll if i already have every scroll i need, the old system promoted greed and lying, I have been on several runs where scrolls dropped and were looted yet no one had the scroll in their inventory and its so annoying to see.

Well said Jond.

[Templarion]

Personally...

You looted it, it's yours.

However, if it's something you aren't looking to build please offer it to the party. I'll do the same.

Yep. But if I was lucky enough to get it, I ask cash for it and sell it to who ever pays most.

[NinjaNeed]

This can be summed up as:

The new system is better than the old system.

Simply use common sense! If a scroll drops and you win the random roll then good for you. Its EXACTLY like a large scale! It is TRADEABLE loot so it is yours to do with as you please. If someone needs it let them trade for it. Dont bother with second rolls as that is what the auto rolling is for and a second roll is just stupid and time consuming.

[toughguyjoe]

I've only run a couple Epics since this came out. It tells you in (Loot) who got a scroll, so at least there is no mystery.

Here is my personal philosophy for scrolls given to me.

1. Scroll of the "I need this Item" drops for me. I ask if anyone else desperately needs this scroll. If any express interest, I offer it for roll.

2. Scroll of the "I don't need this Item" drops for me. I inform the party its up for roll for whoever wants it.

This is just me. I'll do this with any scroll that drops for me. Other people may not do this, but quite frankly I'm past caring.

I know the people I normally run with will for the most part be "fair" so...MEH.

[Jonny_D]

my personal opinion is that its now randomly rolled already so no harm if someone keeps it even if they dont want to use it because they can trade it. However if its something someone really needs i will probably put it up for roll, not expecting others to do it likewise, that being said there will be times valuable a scroll drops in my bag and I know I can trade it for something I am looking for then I will keep it and probably not put it up for roll.

[AMDarkwolf]

LOL the new system is 'ok' but still think scrolls should be chest loot.

but ya, prefer this over the old 'ninja gets the loot, can put for roll if he decides to' method.

But agree, too many people still pulling the 'i deserve to roll on that' ****, one guy even rage quit cuz we WOULDN'T put it for roll - this guy is prob exactly like the one u described above(18_ toons) and likely already had the scroll since he would sit and ctrl click 100+ scrolls in his inv every run we did(If your on sarlona, and run epics, you probably already know who I'm talking about)

So ya. Its my fraking loot, hands off. If I CHOOSE to give it/sell it/put for roll, that's my choice, just like raid loot. Do NOT think you can put your claim on something that is rightfully mine(and threaten with blacklisting) cuz that's where you will end up to me.

[Krag]

I tried hard but could not think of any argument in support of the second roll.

[Glenalth]

LOL the new system is 'ok' but still think scrolls should be chest loot.

The current distribution system is no different than chest loot, other than not being in chests.

[patang01]

It's your loot; give up for a roll if you don't need it, if not treat it like anything that would normally drop in a chest for you. Anyone trying to bully you into a roll is wrong regardless of the situation. U8 changes things. Life changes. This is a game and not real. Most people either pay per month to play or paid for the pack at one point so if I'm paying for my time I'm going to do what I think is best with whatever drops for me.

It's a very weak argument to squelch or tell people they can't group with you if you want to keep what was rolled and given to you and I would rather not run with people like that again.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's loot.



You looted it: it's yours.

But be considerate of others too. if you aren't going to use it, it would be nice to let others in your group have a chance at it.

I have a dim view of people who just plan to sell something. Either to a vendor or the AH.

[stainer]

I am not sure I follow the OP. Are you saying that randomly assigned scrolls should be randomly assigned again by roll? I am trying to get it but my head just assploded.