The Epic Rogue (critique)

[destiny4405]

what malithar45 said. you're rogue is not epic, it's self suficient.

[Qezuzu]

Well then I misused the word epic. I have a lot of experience simply playing my rogue and from what I've seen I'm one of the very few rogues on Orien that actually does Epics. I also have pretty exceptional gear.

I've just built this life to be a good deal hardier and with some more utility. And I'm hardly giving up any DPS. I'm not using kohpeshes and I have -7 to damage for not being a halfling, and that's all.

[Qezuzu]

The thing I like about this build is the 200% healing amp and the ability to easily break 600 HP.

Once I have a good stream of Large mats and base mats, I'll respec for Kohpeshes. Feat exchanges are cheap. Right now, that simply isn't viable, and I'm not going to recraft two double shard weapons (for, what was it, a 7% increase in DPS?) when I have a Bard that could use some con-ops and an uncompleted HP item on my Rogue.

I wanted constructive criticism from this thread. Kernal's post was good, he pointed out an obvious flaw in my build, and the suggestion that my INT was too high was good. I rearranged my CON and STR, lowered my INT and edited my stats so that I could have higher STR but still have the important skills maxed. That's the progress I wanted to see, thanks to this thread.

The griping over having max Intimidate is not constructive, or at least people are misunderstanding it. The posts could just as easily be saying "Why do you have max stealth? You don't need to be in stealth to get SA's". I know how Sneak Attacks work, I know how Intimidate works, and I know how I could use it to benefit a party. This is a HUMAN ROGUE, I have enough skill points such that having Intimidate and Haggle is not a negative.

Saying 15 INT is an epic fail (better to say "I think your INT is too high, you could lower it but compensate with yadda yadda yadda"), I don't know what Epicward does, I don't have much experience with the class I have capped twice and ran hundreds of epics with, and that I don't know how to get X in a skill or not knowing how those skills work is not constructive.

Anyone can build an "uber" STR-based Kohpesh using Halfling Assassin. I'm trying to build, if not an "epic rogue", at least a more advanced rogue. With negligble decreases in DPS I'm more survivable, self sufficient, and can help a party more than just having stupid high DPS (I still DO have stupid high DPS).

[destiny4405]

you really dont want people to like you, do you?

EDIT: just for the record, i have a hard time believing anything you say.

[Qezuzu]

you really dont want people to like you, do you? just for the record i dont believe a word you say.

Depends. Are they worth the effort to keep their respect?

I'm trying to accomplish something here, people are flaming me. That's not why I made this thread.

And what is it that I'm saying you don't believe?

[Ookami007]

Okay, I am *very* well aware of how Sneak Attacks work.

Perhaps... perhaps not. Some of your other decisions DO make your choices suspect.

Do you think I'm going to be mashing intimidate like crazy just for lulz? It's like stealth skills; do you use it constantly? No. Could you use it somehow to make a quest easier or save a party wipe?
Yes. Intimidate is useful on a rogue for SOME enemies, eg epic fire elementals in Chains of Flame. Channeling all the fireballs onto the toon with improved evasion can certainly save the party some trouble.

Possibly, though in Epics, all it takes is 2 missed saves and your down and out. Better to work as a team and take them out than try to be a glory hog with your intimidate.

Plus, you'll find alot more RED unblindable mobs in epic, so your strategy is again suspect. Not to mention, long before you can intimidate them, the wizard will have held or danced them if they're NOT red.

Think I don't have dual Heavy Picks for auto-crit situations?

Why would we know? You didn't mention the crafted rapiers in your original post - we have no idea what you have and since you proponent intimidate on a rogue, let's face it... we can't really believe you think clearly all of the time.

Even in this current life, I have ran HUNDREDS of epics, and not just the kiddie ones like Carnival. Going with Rapiers instead of Kohpeshes does not make me "not useful" in epics.

I'll put your rapier dps against my khopesh damage any day of the week and I'll come out on top. Khopeshes do more damage than rapiers... PERIOD. End of story. On held mobs (epic), that's even truer because of their higher crit multiplier.

So while I wouldn't label you Epic Fail... I would label rapier as Epic Gimp. Please try again.

Please try again.

Hehe... take your own advice.

Now, when I have multiple capped toons running Shroud, I'll consider switching to Kohpeshes. It's not a concern of mine right now, this Rogue isn't as built for stupid high DPS, if it were I would go halfling again. I'm making my rogue tougher and giving it more abilities. Not going Halfling and not using Kohpeshes are the only decrease in DPS this build currently has, and those don't turn my DPS into something not stupidly high.

Hmmm

Diplomacy is wholly unnecessary, and it is a lot less effective for threat management than Threat Reduction and blindness.

My guess is, with you this is probably the case. With the gimpy rapier build, you don't generate enough hate to turn the boss on you - even with 40% rogue reduction + tharnes + Venom set. Some of us big boys DO... so using diplo to dump aggro is important... also... it makes things easier in certain quests. =) So not WHOLLY unnecessary.

Judging by your signature, I certainly have a lot more experience in it than you do. Your comment on diplo doesn't help.

Judging by your responses and lines of thinking... and the fact that I have 1 TR'ed rogue, 2 capped rogues and another nearly capped rogue... (and that's just the rogues) I'm guessing "I" have more experience than you. And your comment on diplo doesn't help.

14 INT on a rogue is pretty standard, I had 15 INT because, as a TR, I could use a +3 Tome and max out a large amount of skills.

14 is standard on non-experienced rogue builds or flavor builds... NOT experienced, hardened epic builds.

That's why I made this thread, so I could iron out any oversights I might have made (I have a huge amount of experience with the class, but not with planning characters out. Hence the existence of this thread).

You might want to actually listen to the MORE experienced players who actually give you USEFUL suggestions.

But in the end, play what you like. You have the God given right to play a gimp build. If it makes you happy... do it.

I've already run hundreds of epics, I'm not building a rogue for epics (I already have one), I'm trying to build an epic rogue.

Your logic is illogical. Epic rogues run epics. They need to be good at running them... otherwise, they are just Marketplace eye candy.

This isn't REAL D&D where you can actually do character development. This is a MMO where we grind, grind, grind thru combat oriented adventures.

Best to be good at it... otherwise, you give rogues a bad name...

[Vengenance]

Diplomacy is wholly unnecessary, and it is a lot less effective for threat management than Threat Reduction and blindness.
Shedding aggro quickly is very useful


Judging by your signature, I certainly have a lot more experience in it than you do. Your comment on diplo doesn't help.

Please compare my Join Date to your Joing Date and then reconsider your response. I've capped multiple rogues over the past years and I'm working on another one at present.

14 INT on a rogue is pretty standard, I had 15 INT because, as a TR, I could use a +3 Tome and max out a large amount of skills.

Unless you're an assassin anything more than 12 is overkill and you can easily get by on less.


I know how epics work, as well. And if something can reliably save against 12 INT, 15 INT isn't going to help.

Not sure what you're getting at here, but your math is correct, which further supports my assessment that 15 is over-kill and not needed. It's your build, do with it what you want but don't be calling it Epic.

The point of this build is really just to be better. Any monkey can build a halfling assassin, I'm improving the other important parts of any toon.

I've already run hundreds of epics, I'm not building a rogue for epics (I already have one), I'm trying to build an epic rogue.

Good, the way your rogue is currentlty described it wouldn't be that useful in Epics. I do think your title is somewhat misleading though.

Responses in Red.

[tripwire11]

EDIT eh nvm... im just repeating ppl and my advice will probably be blown off

[Qezuzu]

Intimidate is like Stealth: If it's not neccesary then I won't use it.

Just because I'm going to have intimidate doesn't mean I'm going to use it like an idiot. I know what qualifies as a sneak attack and I know that intimidate will prevent sneak attacks. What do I give up for having intimidate, anyway? I have plenty of flipping skill points, so stop criticizing that part of this build. It's something I will have if I believe it is best for the situation. There is simply nothing to lose by having this ability.

I also know that Kohpeshes are better DPS than Rapiers, they have the x3 crit multiplier, a higher base damage and a good crit range. I'm simply unable to use them right now. I have two crafted GS rapiers and getting Kohpeshes is not high on my priority list in regards to Shroud crafting. Since leveling a 36 point build takes a decent amount of time, I'll probably have a good pile of larges built up from my other toons anyway.

Rapiers are not "way" worse than Kohpeshes, they just don't do as much damage as them. Rapiers have the highest crit profile of any weapon, you are vastly overstating their "gimpness".

Why would we know? You didn't mention the crafted rapiers in your original post - we have no idea what you have and since you proponent intimidate on a rogue, let's face it... we can't really believe you think clearly all of the time.

Well I said I've run hundreds of epics, in practically all of them many mobs were held and could be auto-critted. Think I went like "Gee, there's totally no way using a weapon with a higher crit multipler will help kill these mobs faster"? I have a lot of experience with epics, and a lot more experience with the rogue class than the majority of people in the game.

You are not dealing with someone who is rolling a Rogue for the first time, I've made this thread so I could get input from other people who may or may not have more knowledge of the class or of building toons than I do, so I don't accidently make some stupid mistake on a 36 point build. Most of what I'm getting right now isn't helpful at all: Intimidate is situationally useful, like stealth, and I'll pick up Kohpeshes eventually.

[qutpote]Judging by your responses and lines of thinking... and the fact that I have 1 TR'ed rogue, 2 capped rogues and another nearly capped rogue... (and that's just the rogues) I'm guessing "I" have more experience than you. And your comment on diplo doesn't help.[/quote]

That wasn't even directed at you.

Please compare my Join Date to your Joing Date and then reconsider your response. I've capped multiple rogues over the past years and I'm working on another one at present.

Your signature didn't list them :P

Unless you're an assassin anything more than 12 is overkill and you can easily get by on less.

Not sure what you're getting at here, but your math is correct, which further supports my assessment that 15 is over-kill and not needed. It's your build, do with it what you want but don't be calling it Epic.

That's why it's been lowered to 12.

And once I cap it again, I may or may not call it epic. On the Orien server, at least, there are very few pure rogues as compared to nearly any other class. I'm trying to build at least the best Rogue on the server.

Good, the way your rogue is currentlty described it wouldn't be that useful in Epics. I do think your title is somewhat misleading though.

I'd edit it if I could because, like Intimidate/Kohpeshes, people are spending waaay too much time on just what I've called this.

Again, I've run hundreds of Epics, my DPS is massive. Even right now I'm extremely useful in Epics. This TR will have a negligible decrease in DPS, but will have a good deal more HP, huge healing AMP and so on. The only flaw that's been pointed out as per my Rogue's combat abilities is not using Kohpeshes, which I'm going to change when I have the capabilities to do so.

How this build is "gimp" in any other way, please point it out. I've already accounted for suggestions people have pointed out. My STR is higher, my INT is lower, and that's about where the helpful advice ends. Everything else was "Why have intimidate, it prevents Sneak Attacks" and "Use kohpeshes they're twice as good as Rapiers!!"

[Qezuzu]

EDIT eh nvm... im just repeating ppl and my advice will probably be blown off

If it was useful advice, I wouldn't blown it off. I defended certain choices when they were questioned, but my reasoning was largely ignored, the question was repeated and I was annoyed.

If it's not something I already know, then have at it.

[Malithar45]

How this build is "gimp" in any other way, please point it out. I've already accounted for suggestions people have pointed out. My STR is higher, my INT is lower, and that's about where the helpful advice ends. Everything else was "Why have intimidate, it prevents Sneak Attacks" and "Use kohpeshes they're twice as good as Rapiers!!"

The thing is, is that both of those pieces of advice are sound advice, specially in a game where DPS is king. I can understand your reasoning for taking intim at least, though I may not agree with it. Can also understand having GS rapiers to lvl into, with Khopesh not being a priority, though you kinda double-speak about having multiple toons able to farm shroud, and earlier on mentioning "once I have multiple toons farming shroud," so meh, you know that Khopesh will be a gain at least.

I'll focus on a few other things instead. You've mentioned you're not overly concerned with the lost DPS you've given up in the build, so I'm assuming you don't mind the loss of the Extra Action Boost II. You've also taken Improved Trap Sense (left over point, I know) and Subtle Backstabbing III. You've vested in the Human Healing Amp as well in full. Personally, I've never found large amounts of healing amp from enhancements overly useful compared to their cost, outside of having a good Shintao Monk or Bard being your healer, or when soloing.

As mentioned before, I choose to go with the Extra Action Boost II and Human Vers IV over those options you've chosen. I'm at SB II and HA I with no Improved Trap Sense, saving 14 APs. With only the loss of 20% healing amp, you could pick up the full Human Vers line, which I tend to make literal use of. Whether on trash duty in ToD p3, recovering from a toss/port away in p1, as a pre-fight DPS boost in anything, Suulo port in VoD boost, ect, I'm always hitting the +5 damage from it. There's almost always a period to hit it before getting back on a boss to take advantage of it. Even in epics (again; title very misleading :P) thats +20 damage on any trash if using picks. If you're feeling ballsy and your server hamster is in good working condition, you can activate it like .2 seconds after haste boost and have both go off with no extra delay. And thats only speaking to the +5 damage side of things, nevermind the +5 skills when you're too lazy to switch in UMD gear for something that your standing gear doesn't provide for, traps if you're shy a GS +Int skills item, or the +5 attack for those mobs that have a retardly high AC (looking at you epic Melicia...)

As a Human rogue, I've come to classify Human Vers as a must have for the build, even more so if you were to drop your Subtle Backstabbing III and Improved Trap Sense and grab Extra Action Boost II. Could echo all day about Intim and Khopesh, but its been beaten to death, and as your responses show, Intim is just something you want, and Khopesh is something you'll work towards when there's time/ability.

Hope these points about enhancements at least hit the mark. As far as stats go, at least from your editted build amounts, they're spot on far as I'm concerned. The only other thing to take into account is your tomes/+exceptional stats/+7 stat items to not waste build points. Ending at 23 Str and 18 Con from lvls/feats/enhancements, but see no tomes on either. Planning for a +3 Str tome? Looking towards that +7 Str item? Maybe both with +3 Exceptional Str? Things like that help understand the end result of the build, but don't see that info posted anywhere on it.

[rabrams99]

Perhaps... perhaps not. Some of your other decisions I'll put your rapier dps against my khopesh damage any day of the week and I'll come out on top. Khopeshes do more damage than rapiers... PERIOD. End of story. On held mobs (epic), that's even truer because of their higher crit multiplier.

So while I wouldn't label you Epic Fail... I would label rapier as Epic Gimp. Please try again.

...

It has been shown that the khopesh is about 3-4% dps increase compared to the rapier on a rogue. Considering one can create heavy picks for epics, one could make the arguement that throwing away all those mats on the rapiers is foolish. And 3-4% damage decrease on a toon is not epic fail.

[Qezuzu]

That's a very helpful post, Malithar. That's what I am looking for.

I would like to keep maximum healing AMP, but I'll see where I can drop points. Dropping SB III and Trapsense will give 4 extra points, but I suppose I can drop TierIII Amp, which would be -15% amp (202% to 187%). Since I have the Epic Gloves, I can completely agree with that change.

Giving 10 extra points. I'll build up the enhancements again and see how else I can get the other enhancements. Since I'll have less threat reduction, I suppose I can try diplomacy, taking more points from Balance, Jump, Tumble, and now haggle and perhaps spot. I can always LR if I don't find it useful.

It has been shown that the khopesh is about 3-4% dps increase compared to the rapier on a rogue. Considering one can create heavy picks for epics, one could make the arguement that throwing away all those mats on the rapiers is foolish. And 3-4% damage decrease on a toon is not epic fail.

Thanks for pointing that out. It was a gross hyperbole, and very obnoxious too.

[Artos_Fabril]

What do I give up for having intimidate, anyway? I have plenty of flipping skill points, so stop criticizing that part of this build. It's something I will have if I believe it is best for the situation. There is simply nothing to lose by having this ability.

More skill points than you need for necessary skills? Unless you're taking an ability with an int pre-req, then lower your int and put those points somewhere more useful. What I mean is, you're paying an opportunity cost for the skill points you placed in intimidate of points spent in INT that could have been spent elsewhere, so you have lost something by having that ability.

I also know that Kohpeshes are better DPS than Rapiers, they have the x3 crit multiplier, a higher base damage and a good crit range. I'm simply unable to use them right now.

You have a feat you were considering spending on OTWF. That feat could easily be spent on Khopesh instead, if you decided to make epic DPS your priority on you "Epic Rogue" build. The rapier/heavy pick synergy is better, but you don't really need improved crit for the heavy picks, since you'll only pull them out when you're getting auto-crits anyway.

Rapiers are not "way" worse than Kohpeshes, they just don't do as much damage as them. Rapiers have the highest crit profile of any weapon, you are vastly overstating their "gimpness".

Rapiers are in the widest crit-threat bracket, and share that space with scimitars, which have more synergy with khopeshes in a forward-planning build. For a newer player with fewer resources or someone who was going to run a lot of solo or non-epic content, *those* would be the weapon of choice for a khopesh fill-in or radII. On the other hand, a player with hundreds of epic runs, building an epic character (in theory, to run epics with) would be expected to go directly for the best weapon, or at least the best weapon for the job (Warhammers, Heavy Picks, and Dwarven Axes all have a superior damage profile in auto-crit circumstances to a GS khopesh, let alone a rapier, but khopesh is the default choice because it's better in non-auto-crit circumstances than the 3 weapons with better auto-crit damage. We're discussing Epic and DDO, which means that anything that isn't the best it can be is considered gimp -- and remember, perception is reality.

I have a lot of experience with epics, and a lot more experience with the rogue class than the majority of people in the game.

Your first point I believe, your second point might be true of the total population, but in this forum I highly doubt that you are in the top 30% of players highly experienced in the rogue class.

You are not dealing with someone who is rolling a Rogue for the first time, I've made this thread so I could get input from other people who may or may not have more knowledge of the class or of building toons than I do, so I don't accidently make some stupid mistake on a 36 point build. Most of what I'm getting right now isn't helpful at all: Intimidate is situationally useful, like stealth, and I'll pick up Kohpeshes eventually.

What we have found in the course of this thread, is that a great many people have more knowledge of the class and of building characters than you have demonstrated several "stupid mistakes" have already been corrected, and what you're getting now is the same good advice you refused to listen to the first dozen time you got it, which more detailed and more exasperated explanations: The cost you're paying for intimidate is points spent in INT that could have been spent elsewhere; and epic rogues wield weapons that do superior damage in epic content as it is played, which generally means khopeshes, since you never mentioned having dual Dreamsplitters for auto-crit situations.

Your signature didn't list them :P

Your post also failed to list a significant amount of relevant information. Aside from tomes, what gear do you have that people trying to give you constructive advice should know about? Don't know what gear might be significant to the discussion? Maybe that's why people doubt your experience...

That's why it's been lowered to 12.

If you still have enough points for Intimidate, lower it to 10, or switch from Human to HElf and pick up Barb or fighter dilettante. (not to mention double-diplo)

And once I cap it again, I may or may not call it epic. On the Orien server, at least, there are very few pure rogues as compared to nearly any other class. I'm trying to build at least the best Rogue on the server.

If this is that rogue, I pity Orien. :/

[Qezuzu]

Blah about Kohpeshes

As I have already pointed out already numerous times, I'm going to pick up Kohpeshes when I can do that. It's not helpful to repeat this again.

More skill points than you need for necessary skills? Unless you're taking an ability with an int pre-req, then lower your int and put those points somewhere more useful. What I mean is, you're paying an opportunity cost for the skill points you placed in intimidate of points spent in INT that could have been spent elsewhere, so you have lost something by having that ability.

If you still have enough points for Intimidate, lower it to 10, or switch from Human to HElf and pick up Barb or fighter dilettante. (not to mention double-diplo)

The cost you're paying for intimidate is points spent in INT that could have been spent elsewhere;

Where would I even spend them? I have max STR, 2 points isn't enough for another CON level, and I only have DEX to qualify for TWF.

Intimidate will simply be a useful asset to have.

Your post also failed to list a significant amount of relevant information. Aside from tomes, what gear do you have that people trying to give you constructive advice should know about? Don't know what gear might be significant to the discussion? Maybe that's why people doubt your experience...

What the hell is this. I'm looking for feedback on a build here. I get snarky comments on my experience with the class and how I don't know how epics work or how to best make use of auto-crit, I try to explain anomalies in the build but they're completely ignored, and I'm then accused of blowing off all advice.

Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers
Epic Gloves of the Claw
Epic Venom Set
RadII rapier
LitII rapier
Dual Heavy Picks

EDIT: Also;

Titan's Grip


That's about the most relevant.

If this is that rogue, I pity Orien. :/

Why?

Tell me why, already. I'm here to make the best TRed rogue I can, not get flak about whether or not I know this class well and about the title I now regret using.

The only thing I have yet to "fix" is not using Kohpeshes. I have max STR, all the useful skills, very high DPS, high HP, and high Healing AMP. Woo Woo stick is on my list of things to get before TRing, and there's nothing but Kohpeshes that can improve my DPS as it is (on build alone).

Now please, cut the **** and focus on the build. Ignore Intimidate and ignore Kohpeshes, I'm done explaining them. Kernal's post was good, Malithar's post was good. Just stop it already.

[destiny4405]

Why?

Tell me why, already. I'm here to make the best TRed rogue I can, not get flak about whether or not I know this class well and about the title I now regret using.

start with 18 15 17 8 8 8. put all five points into STR, use +2 dex tome at lvl 7, drop Human STR and take rogue action boost II. when you get +1 exc STR from ToD you'll have STR evened.

EDIT: drop haggle completely, and in jump and OL put half skill points. you'll have enough to max Intimidate...

[Qezuzu]

start with 18 15 17 8 8 8. put all five points into STR, use +2 dex tome at lvl 7, drop Human STR and take rogue action boost II. when you get +1 exc STR from ToD you'll have STR evened.

EDIT: drop haggle completely, and in jump and OL put half skill points. you'll have enough to max Intimidate...

18, 15 and 17 is 37 points.

18, 14 and 17 is a point left over.

12 INT is fine. My STR is maxed. My skills are all figured out and there's no loss to be had from having 12 INT.

The only thing dropping INT will do is either give me 17 CON and a stat with 9, or give me higher DEX which will help for reflex saves...

[destiny4405]

good for you. orien is a lucky to have you.

[Artos_Fabril]

Where would I even spend them? I have max STR, 2 points isn't enough for another CON level, and I only have DEX to qualify for TWF.

drop int to 9, increase con to 17. +1 tome at level 3, drop intimidate and a few points off jump and balance: on a human, this lets you afford all the necessary skills and increase your con a little bit more.

Or go the other way, keep int at 12, swap to HElf, lose the feat you're using for OTWF (Toughness at 1, PL:SoS at 3, TWF at 6, PA at 9, etc.) take dilettante: barb for more HP. and you're not locked out of any of the human enhancement lines. Drop more from jump and haggle, and you'll be able to go to 9 INT to get the extra point of Con as well, there's another 40 HP (2 con and 2 barb toughness) over your revised build.

If you're going to ignore all the other advice and keep 12 int and intimidate, at least take a few points from jump and put them into concentration so you can get a scroll off in combat, or put them in diplo so you can dump agro if you have to in order to get the scroll off with low concentration, and gain the benefits of having diplo at other times too.
edit: or if you still feel you need intimidate, you can drop haggle instead, as destiny said.

What the hell is this. I'm looking for feedback on a build here. I get snarky comments on my experience with the class and how I don't know how epics work or how to best make use of auto-crit, I try to explain anomalies in the build but they're completely ignored, and I'm then accused of blowing off all advice.

You used equipment you had never previously mentioned to justify your build decisions twice, I'm asking if there was any other equipment that might be pertinent to the discussion before it comes up again. The snarky comment is because a) that's how I roll, and b) you've been hostile to multiple attempts to give you sound advice both polite and snarky, so why not be snarky.

[Qezuzu]

good for you. orien is a lucky to have you.

I think that's about as productive as this thread will be able to get.