DPS>> the 'ultimate' measure?

[Mike1w]

I constantly see posts, seems, about DPS ( damage per second ). While I agree that killing mobs is probably the most important single task, I don't view the game as such a 'one number' arrangement. In a balanced party, the healing and specialist classes ( cleric, bard, rogue ), especially, should be considered for what they bring to the party as their skills allow, and not just dps. Granted, I haven't played high lvl yet. But if you are looking for more damge, why not just bring more arcane casters and more melee types. I guess I need to learn more, but really, the healers and specialists have specific roles, and DPS is secondary to them. That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

[BlackSteel]

noone is going to compare a healers or bards DPS to other classes whose only role is damage. You might compare a bard to a bard, or a battlecleric to other battleclerics. But all the damage talk is mostly just about comparing one build or damage class to another.

[Mike1w]

noone is going to compare a healers or bards DPS to other classes whose only role is damage. You might compare a bard to a bard, or a battlecleric to other battleclerics. But all the damage talk is mostly just about comparing one build or damage class to another.

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

[eonfreon]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

The problem is that the Rogue's Trap abilities are needed far less then his killing abilities in the majority of the quests.

If you have a static group of friends and thus a "balanced" party, then that may be less of a worry.
If you're doing PUGS, you won't always get that balanced party.
And built right, Rogues are one of the best DPS classes in quite alot of content.

[Mike1w]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

[BlackSteel]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

i'm not sure how you're playing that somehow isnt a function of DPS anyway. (unless you're a stealth player, and like to sneak thru content, which is great n doable, but dont expect a party to sit idle)

I wouldnt worry about what most groups think of your playstyle, while leveling up its very easy to stay relatively anonymous. Everyone is too stoked about their own damage to really notice others. Unless 1) you're really really good 2) you're really really bad.

so if you beat everyone else 80 kills to 1, you'll stick out like a sore thumb. If you repeatedly grief and/or die in stupid situations you'll stick out

[ArloOne]

It can also be argued...

A cleric/fvs adds to DPS by : Buffs and keeping the melee type characters focused on continual damage and not worrying about have to kite around drinking pots to get back into the fray, by keeping them healed this class increases DPS.

A caster bard/sorc/wiz: Buffs ( stoneskin/blurr/displacement etc etc) keep melee types up and alive a longer not to mention the sacred attack increase with haste. Crowd control spells such as solid fog , web, hold monter all increase DPS.

Basically the way I look at it: The actual melee characters are my pawns..keep them alive and make them swing fast..I am the one who can increase DPS..

Just my perspective.

Happy Holidays!

[eonfreon]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

I'm not really understanding your issue too much. You sound like you might've had a bad experience with some pain in the butt elitist or something.
Skills are very important. UMD for scrolls is a very strong trait for Rogues and Bards (and whoever else can afford to push it up). Trap finding and disabling can be very useful.
And in the endyou have to kill the enemies. Yes, much can be stealthed. But a balanced party will generally have those that can't stealth.
What's the use of you avoiding enemies that the Barbarian can't sneak past? Sneak past them to get an advantage, then let the Barbarian run up and anger everything, then you can help with sneak attack, and watch the dps skyrocket.
A Bard's utility comes with his spells and songs. Incapacitating a Mob is a form of "DPS".
And while healing Clerics and FvS are great. Ones who can assist with their spells to take out the enemies even before you take any damage are even greater.
In a static group it's easy to know everyone's role. In a PUG people have to feel it out better, and being built for multiple roles mean you can take up some slack. After all, if a Wiz/Rog multiclass can already disable the traps, they won't need a Rogue just for that.

[BlackSteel]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

if you're not a healer or an arcane your role is DPS. (and the arcane one can be arguable, as they have very nice damage as well when they go nuklear)

rogue's trapsmithing? secondary to their damage as their one of the highest in game

all the other classes are there simply to hit stuff. theres no way around that.

a ranger, a paladin, fighter, barb. everyone is there to do damage. A monk can be great support, but is also there ultimately to kill stuff.

a bard is there to help everyone kill stuff more efficiently. If they do decent damage as well thats gravy.

the only class 'skills' that supercede damage are healing and cc focused casters.

[Cyr]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

Rogues are a dps class. They are not a support class such as bards or a spell casting class such as arcanes and divines. As such yes one of their primary build points is their dps.

Rogues can easily obtain very serviceable numbers in trapping and umd. Generally the problem comes from new players not realizing how much you can boost your trapping skill through buffs and items making them incorrectly believe that to do traps in the game you have to gimp your physical stats on your rogue. Another less common pitfall is the belief that most of the skills in the game have any significant value when in practice most range from completly useless to mostly useless.

[Chai]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

[Mike1w]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

[krud]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

what most here are trying to tell you is that a rogue is a great dps class. There are lot's of ways to get great dps out of a rogue, without sacrificing any of those other special skills you talk about. It just requires the right adjustments, either in build, but mostly in playstyle.

[grodon9999]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

Don't believe what you read in the forums. There are some people here who are absolutely obsessive when it comes to one-dimensional DPS toons. There's other things that can be brought to the table that can be a benefit to the party. Self healing is huge. If your rogue can scroll-heal you'll save a wipe when something goes bad. I'll never forget an EVoN1 were were in where the Cleric DC'd in the middle of the arena fight. The monk, bard, and ranger survived and finished the fight while the barbarian was left dead after a while because we were tired of ressing him.

That said . . . your purpose of ANY melee class is to do damage and have enough survivability to live while doing damage. Rogues should be build for DPS as a primary concern. Will you be gimped if you don't go full-****** Half-orc with no versatility? Not at all. But the 8 STR 8 CON Mechanic (yes, they exist) is simply a joke as there isn't a trap in the game that requires you to be that focussed. "Tank" builds need to be able to hurt something. See that thread about the guys who wants to build an 8 STR pally-tank with 100+ AC. That toon will be useless in 99% of the game.

[Mercureal]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

I think you're right in general, but a bit off on the specifics re: rogues. A rogue is a DPS class and doesn't need anything else to justify themselves. Granted, they're not suited to running and slamming headfirst into big groups of enemies, but they most certainly are DPS. The secondary skills they bring are just that: useful to very useful in situations, but not a main focus. And rogue specialist skills aren't on par to what a cleric, arcane or bard brings with them.

[grodon9999]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

So true, I expect the next big nerf is to require Kensais to have a Lawful Alignment.

[Aaxeyu]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

Telling others what they should and shouldn't do again, are we?

[eonfreon]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

Who's talking about cookie cutter builds? The fact is for most people it's fun and practical to optimize as many aspects of a build as possible. DPS happens to be one of those aspects. Creating a pure Rogue whose only purpose is traps is as much a cookie cutter build as a max dps build.
The fact is so much discussion on the forums center around DPS because someone is generally asking about some aspect of DPS. Whether it be build, gear, or buffs.
Turbine is the one who has moved us closer to cookie cutter builds with Capstones and PRE's.
There used to be a lot more wiggle room before.
You don't get much more cookie cutter then having to stay Pure and following Turbine's PRE requirements.
The fact of the matter is "concept" builds have been hit a lot harder by Turbine then "cookie cutter" builds.

[grodon9999]

The fact is so much discussion on the forums center around DPS because someone is generally asking about some aspect of DPS. Whether it be build, gear, or buffs.

Also DPS, unlike many other aspects of the game, can be quantitatively measured with a reasonable amount of accuracy. You can measure utility in a spreadsheet.

[eonfreon]

I constantly see posts, seems, about DPS ( damage per second ). While I agree that killing mobs is probably the most important single task, I don't view the game as such a 'one number' arrangement. In a balanced party, the healing and specialist classes ( cleric, bard, rogue ), especially, should be considered for what they bring to the party as their skills allow, and not just dps. Granted, I haven't played high lvl yet. But if you are looking for more damge, why not just bring more arcane casters and more melee types. I guess I need to learn more, but really, the healers and specialists have specific roles, and DPS is secondary to them. That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

DPS is the measure of a DPS build. It's as simple as that.
And there are different types of DPS.
And no one is suggesting that Utility and Specialist Classes don't bring a lot to the group.
Plus who knows what you'll get in a PUG. It's not always possible to "bring more melee or casters" unless you're talking about bringing friends and guildmates along. In which case you know what they bring to the table.
When I PUG and lead PUGS I do it with the confidence that my melee's DPS is very good. Therefore I don't have to worry about the rest of the players so much. And of course I want good healers, support, and casters when I can get them.
However, I can get by with "mediocre" assistance because I know my capabilities, which include DPS, Survivability, and Utility.

Simply stated: DPS is a big measure for a DPS build. And the state of the game, especially in HIgh End ELite content, very good DPS generally makes the run smoother, then say good defense.
That's my overall experience. And matters can certainly differ. A good high AC Intimitank can also make the run smooth, but you need the decent-to-great DPS to reap the benefits of that great support.