DPS>> the 'ultimate' measure?

[EKKM]

Excluding healers and arcanes, there are very few roles in DDO that cannot be accomplished while also bringing DPS (although healers can also do DPS). Consequently, if your specialist neglects DPS to focus on their primary role it is likely suboptimal. Obviously certain builds like tanks and bards won't have the DPS that a barb or kensei fighter does, but they can still be built to accomplish their primary role (tanking/buffing) AND contribute meaningful DPS.

You used rogues as an example, a trap rogue is almost useless in most of the content in DDO. For the investment of 3 feats and some build points in STR, you can still do all the traps in the game and contribute significant DPS.

Yes there are exceptions, spellsinger bards come to mind, but in those cases it is pretty clear that the benfits they provide by neglecting DPS are significant.

[Chai]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

[Mike1w]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

[grodon9999]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

So true, I expect the next big nerf is to require Kensais to have a Lawful Alignment.

[krud]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

what most here are trying to tell you is that a rogue is a great dps class. There are lot's of ways to get great dps out of a rogue, without sacrificing any of those other special skills you talk about. It just requires the right adjustments, either in build, but mostly in playstyle.

[grodon9999]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

Don't believe what you read in the forums. There are some people here who are absolutely obsessive when it comes to one-dimensional DPS toons. There's other things that can be brought to the table that can be a benefit to the party. Self healing is huge. If your rogue can scroll-heal you'll save a wipe when something goes bad. I'll never forget an EVoN1 were were in where the Cleric DC'd in the middle of the arena fight. The monk, bard, and ranger survived and finished the fight while the barbarian was left dead after a while because we were tired of ressing him.

That said . . . your purpose of ANY melee class is to do damage and have enough survivability to live while doing damage. Rogues should be build for DPS as a primary concern. Will you be gimped if you don't go full-****** Half-orc with no versatility? Not at all. But the 8 STR 8 CON Mechanic (yes, they exist) is simply a joke as there isn't a trap in the game that requires you to be that focussed. "Tank" builds need to be able to hurt something. See that thread about the guys who wants to build an 8 STR pally-tank with 100+ AC. That toon will be useless in 99% of the game.

[Mercureal]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

I think you're right in general, but a bit off on the specifics re: rogues. A rogue is a DPS class and doesn't need anything else to justify themselves. Granted, they're not suited to running and slamming headfirst into big groups of enemies, but they most certainly are DPS. The secondary skills they bring are just that: useful to very useful in situations, but not a main focus. And rogue specialist skills aren't on par to what a cleric, arcane or bard brings with them.

[Aaxeyu]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

Telling others what they should and shouldn't do again, are we?

[eonfreon]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

Who's talking about cookie cutter builds? The fact is for most people it's fun and practical to optimize as many aspects of a build as possible. DPS happens to be one of those aspects. Creating a pure Rogue whose only purpose is traps is as much a cookie cutter build as a max dps build.
The fact is so much discussion on the forums center around DPS because someone is generally asking about some aspect of DPS. Whether it be build, gear, or buffs.
Turbine is the one who has moved us closer to cookie cutter builds with Capstones and PRE's.
There used to be a lot more wiggle room before.
You don't get much more cookie cutter then having to stay Pure and following Turbine's PRE requirements.
The fact of the matter is "concept" builds have been hit a lot harder by Turbine then "cookie cutter" builds.

[grodon9999]

The fact is so much discussion on the forums center around DPS because someone is generally asking about some aspect of DPS. Whether it be build, gear, or buffs.

Also DPS, unlike many other aspects of the game, can be quantitatively measured with a reasonable amount of accuracy. You can measure utility in a spreadsheet.

[eonfreon]

Also DPS, unlike many other aspects of the game, can be quantitatively measured with a reasonable amount of accuracy. You can measure utility in a spreadsheet.

True.
Plus, while there are those who want to achieve "max DPS over everything and everyone else", there are those of us who simply want the max DPS we can achieve.
Because DPS is just another utility.
I also want to max out my UMD, my AC, and my HP, etc.
Since I don't have the time to research every aspect of it, it's nice that others have both the time and desire to do so.
I don't need spreadsheets to tell me how to play the game and measure my performance. But it's nice that it's available and the accuracy can be gauged should I want it.
It's just another tool in our arsenal.

[andbr22]

DPS is feroushisly important in DDO that is sad truth.
Raids are about DPS (VoD, Shroud, ToD), or abilities that you learn as player but not class specified (shroud puzzles, ravers puzzle, Necro4 raid, Titan).
Epics are all about DPS - sorry but my Dex speced AA have sometimes problems with hitting in epics (not like i have 100 diffrent ways to improve my dextrinity, like meles have with Str, i can only afford to destruct, and improved destruct enemies at begining), and as long as epics are easy and short, can contribute a little when I grab my holyburst maiming, and holy burst Pikes (this is funny especially in epic chronoscope when i laguht as one with the most of kills - this shows that many people don't even think about grabing 2 normal pikes for epics).

[Mike1w]

I will need to play each character so that I can balance individual DPS, with using other skills to boost others' DPS, or solve specific problems ( rogue traps ). Its a tightrope. I'll try to ignore those that fall hard in the forums onto the DPS,DPS,DPS,DPS,.... side of things.
And no, I don't play only rogues. I like to experience a variety, so I have every class, that f2p allows.( I might not have a ranger, think I'll start one.)

[Chette]

That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

You should absolutely play your build the way you want to play it. But for most people this will almost always be damage first, because damage is what gets quests done. You can run past traps and knock doors, you can't diplomacy a monster to death.

The way that I see it is in terms of completion time. A high DPS rogue who can also open some doors and disable traps will help you complete a quest smoother and faster. A bard who can add +9 to the damage of every party member more than makes up for the difference between their own personal DPS and that of the barbarian next to them. A party member that can effectively keep the party healed and buffed saves the fighters from having to constantly stop swinging to drink potions. Balance is needed and leads to smooth fun completions, but DPS will always be important, and is the main contributor to completing most quests.

[yawumpus]

The reason for all this foolishness is that D&D is about the party. You kill mobs as a party, you loot as a party, you attempt to pike as a party, you wipe as a party, and you rise tomorrow as ghouls as a party.

So the question is not which build is the most uber, but who can bring the most to the party.

High DPS* can take at least half the slots of a full party. Other, more balanced toons, can take the rest. Note the "full party" emphasis. A short manned party will still need all the roles covered, but a pure DPS beast can only cover one.

Finally, DPS can mean one simple thing. A fast, clean run. Add up all the mobs hp (at least the ones you need to kill) and divide by the total party DPS (calculating the arcane's contribution will be difficult). That is the minimum amount of time you will spend in combat. Add that to the time it takes to run through the quest, open doors, remove traps, and loot treasure. Remember, the mobs have a certain dps to, and killing them faster means less damage taken.

[ddoer]

IMHO, any class except healer should concern about DPS. It's a matter of how you maximize your contribution to the party. Take arcane caster as an example, you could put CC as your first priority, maximize your enchantment DC, but there are many scenarios, such as most boss fight, that there is no need for CC. You can't just say I'm a CC caster and standing there to watch the melees fighting. Similar idea apply to a bard or even a 2nd healer. For rog, to me, they are simply a DPS class with trap skills.

[Dendrix]

if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

In the vast majority of quests:
There are more than 50 monsters to kill and less than 3 traps to disarm.
If you are great at disarming traps and useless at killing monsters overall you are pretty much useless.

You have to play the way the game is meant to be played - online, with other people. not as if you were sitting around a gaming table.

[thx.janus]

I don't think its all about DPS. I think, its all about "getting things done" which means complete the quests as enjoyable as possible.
For most people this means: Completing as fast as possible without any deaths (which CAN be fun, shure, but there are many more aspects, at least for me).

I once spend like 3h in a quest (i don't even remember which one) with a full pug of people not knowing the quest. So we had to figure it out ourselfs, reading the dialogs and listening to the DM (which i generally dont have time for in new quests, because there is always someone who went through hundreds of times and who gives a newbie just as much information to not cause a wipe.) and we all had some great fun.

I also consider a quest run as a good run when i get some respect for my play style (e.g. some caster thanking me for constantly keeping up Alignment of Heavens) or when I save the party from a wipe due to the great survivability of my light monk or the greataxe-swinging barb who just loves to get insane dps due to my stunning fist, kukan-do, jadetomb, etc...

Shure, i can hand out reasonable amounts of dps with my monk when i can auto-crit. But there is no way to measure the whole damage which was handed out to the mobs because of my monk or to measure the damage not dealt by the mobs because of my monk.

So, as i said in the beginning, i think its about "getting things done". And while i dont think of my monk as a top dps toon, i think that he is an awesome gtdps (getting things done per second ;-) ) toon, which makes me AND others enjoy the time spend together. And thats what a game is all about, IMHO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Even if you think killing monsters is the number one most important thing in the game, DPS is not the be all end all that people make it out to be.

For one thing, DPS fails to take into consideration many things. Like how often your weapons actually get on target. What kind of mob you are fighting...etc.

It really only is accurate against a critable mob who is sationary and does not fight back.

The not fighting back part is important, because you do zero DPS when you are dead. Or forced to take actions to prevent yourself from dying.

Crits are usually cited in DPS calculations.....but not all mobs can be critted effectively.

AC is sometimes a consideration.

People usually quote buffed DPS numers as well.....which fall apart as soon as the buffs are gone.

They quote rare raid loot....as if they are guaranteed to have it.

And of course they assume the mob will just stand there and let them beat on it....which I find is seldom the truth.



But for me....well I play for fun. And although feeling powerful and killing things is fun too, I need something more.

I need survivability first. Cause dying ain't fun at all.

I need versitility, cause for me the ability to do a lot of different things, a lot of different ways in a lot of different situations is very, very fun.

And I even need a little role playing in my build as well. Even though this is not really a role playing game, nor do I group with RPers....it's still an important D&D element to me. Maybe just in appearance, or bio.... but I usualy incorporate something into weapon selection and stats as well.

[Broldin]

You'll see DPS arguments in every MMO for the simple reason that most classes are DPS and most party/raid members are DPS. It creates a huge competition for anyone who doesn't want to be tank/healer/support as they constitute a large percentage of the player population competing for party slots.