DPS>> the 'ultimate' measure?

[Mike1w]

I constantly see posts, seems, about DPS ( damage per second ). While I agree that killing mobs is probably the most important single task, I don't view the game as such a 'one number' arrangement. In a balanced party, the healing and specialist classes ( cleric, bard, rogue ), especially, should be considered for what they bring to the party as their skills allow, and not just dps. Granted, I haven't played high lvl yet. But if you are looking for more damge, why not just bring more arcane casters and more melee types. I guess I need to learn more, but really, the healers and specialists have specific roles, and DPS is secondary to them. That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

[BlackSteel]

noone is going to compare a healers or bards DPS to other classes whose only role is damage. You might compare a bard to a bard, or a battlecleric to other battleclerics. But all the damage talk is mostly just about comparing one build or damage class to another.

[Mike1w]

noone is going to compare a healers or bards DPS to other classes whose only role is damage. You might compare a bard to a bard, or a battlecleric to other battleclerics. But all the damage talk is mostly just about comparing one build or damage class to another.

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

[eonfreon]

I constantly see posts, seems, about DPS ( damage per second ). While I agree that killing mobs is probably the most important single task, I don't view the game as such a 'one number' arrangement. In a balanced party, the healing and specialist classes ( cleric, bard, rogue ), especially, should be considered for what they bring to the party as their skills allow, and not just dps. Granted, I haven't played high lvl yet. But if you are looking for more damge, why not just bring more arcane casters and more melee types. I guess I need to learn more, but really, the healers and specialists have specific roles, and DPS is secondary to them. That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

DPS is the measure of a DPS build. It's as simple as that.
And there are different types of DPS.
And no one is suggesting that Utility and Specialist Classes don't bring a lot to the group.
Plus who knows what you'll get in a PUG. It's not always possible to "bring more melee or casters" unless you're talking about bringing friends and guildmates along. In which case you know what they bring to the table.
When I PUG and lead PUGS I do it with the confidence that my melee's DPS is very good. Therefore I don't have to worry about the rest of the players so much. And of course I want good healers, support, and casters when I can get them.
However, I can get by with "mediocre" assistance because I know my capabilities, which include DPS, Survivability, and Utility.

Simply stated: DPS is a big measure for a DPS build. And the state of the game, especially in HIgh End ELite content, very good DPS generally makes the run smoother, then say good defense.
That's my overall experience. And matters can certainly differ. A good high AC Intimitank can also make the run smooth, but you need the decent-to-great DPS to reap the benefits of that great support.

[Whargoul]

Not sure if there was a question in there, but play however you want.

However, most veteran players view that rogue primary purpose is DPS, and skills are secondary. It is good to know what assumptions you are likely to face when you bring your skill rogue into a party that expects a DPS focused rogue.

I agree with you that other non melee DPS classes are overshadowed somewhat, probably due to kill count being the only measure of your contribution.

[eonfreon]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

The problem is that the Rogue's Trap abilities are needed far less then his killing abilities in the majority of the quests.

If you have a static group of friends and thus a "balanced" party, then that may be less of a worry.
If you're doing PUGS, you won't always get that balanced party.
And built right, Rogues are one of the best DPS classes in quite alot of content.

[Crann]

Killing bad guys is the objective, either directly or indirectly of most every quest/Raid in this game.

DPS is what drives DDO.

Support builds have a role in supporting DPS output, where it be by making others do more DPS, or by keeping them alive, so they can, you guessed it, do more DPS

Not saying thats the way I would have it in a perfect gaming world, but throw an entire group or DPS apes together with a healer, and there isn't too much you can't get done very quickly in this game.

[BlackSteel]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

if you're not a healer or an arcane your role is DPS. (and the arcane one can be arguable, as they have very nice damage as well when they go nuklear)

rogue's trapsmithing? secondary to their damage as their one of the highest in game

all the other classes are there simply to hit stuff. theres no way around that.

a ranger, a paladin, fighter, barb. everyone is there to do damage. A monk can be great support, but is also there ultimately to kill stuff.

a bard is there to help everyone kill stuff more efficiently. If they do decent damage as well thats gravy.

the only class 'skills' that supercede damage are healing and cc focused casters.

[Mike1w]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

[EyeRekon]

DPS is the only measure people generally care about outside of HP and Saves..
AC? Becomes irrelevant in this game
DR? Helps you survive but is not as important to success
SP? Comes in a pot if necessary, not as important as the yield of spells through gear and enhancements
Attack Bonus? It is not difficult to only miss upon rolling a 1

As content levels rise mob HP leaps. No other measure leads as directly to threat removal as DPS does.

DPS is calculable, measurable, and its effect is very uniform across content. It serves as a single, concrete way to compare warrior classes with each other. It may not be the only factor in comparing builds but it is a major one. Builds can justifiably trade some DPS for other features, sure. Still you can at least weigh that. -10 DPS for +3 Saves & 2 AC.

[Vanshilar]

Damage per second (DPS) is like miles per gallon (MPG) for a car. It's a pretty important quantity, and worth knowing, but not the only one that you should consider. It doesn't capture for example survivability, which is more to do with HP and DR (i.e. barb), evasion (rogue or monk or ranger), and so forth.

Nukers can do a fair amount of damage, but the problem is that their SP pool is limited. DPS Melees doing damage and taking damage in return, and a healer using his SP to heal those melees, is more efficient SP-wise (more damage done to target per point of SP), hence the most common arrangement for parties is melees in front and healers etc. backing them up. In some circumstances casters will do a lot of damage though, or can augment melee damage pretty well (such as with firewall).

Like MPG, the DPS figures that are commonly used on the forums are basically under "laboratory" assumed conditions, so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Hence..."your mileage may vary".

[BlackSteel]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

i'm not sure how you're playing that somehow isnt a function of DPS anyway. (unless you're a stealth player, and like to sneak thru content, which is great n doable, but dont expect a party to sit idle)

I wouldnt worry about what most groups think of your playstyle, while leveling up its very easy to stay relatively anonymous. Everyone is too stoked about their own damage to really notice others. Unless 1) you're really really good 2) you're really really bad.

so if you beat everyone else 80 kills to 1, you'll stick out like a sore thumb. If you repeatedly grief and/or die in stupid situations you'll stick out

[ArloOne]

It can also be argued...

A cleric/fvs adds to DPS by : Buffs and keeping the melee type characters focused on continual damage and not worrying about have to kite around drinking pots to get back into the fray, by keeping them healed this class increases DPS.

A caster bard/sorc/wiz: Buffs ( stoneskin/blurr/displacement etc etc) keep melee types up and alive a longer not to mention the sacred attack increase with haste. Crowd control spells such as solid fog , web, hold monter all increase DPS.

Basically the way I look at it: The actual melee characters are my pawns..keep them alive and make them swing fast..I am the one who can increase DPS..

Just my perspective.

Happy Holidays!

[Phidius]

As long as Turbine believes that increasing the game's challenge is as simple as pouring in more HP and applying more blanket immunities, DPS will remain the ultimate measure of a build. Either you are pumping out the DPS, or supporting those who do.

Attempting to remain at the top of the pile means playing the game the way they want you to. Bucking the system can be fun, but is also very exhausting.

[krud]

Build to suit your playstyle, just realize that end game and raiding tend to favor the narrowly specialized builds (especially in the dps department). Raid groups don't always adjust to your playstyle, so you may have to adjust to theirs. It's usually the newer players that wish to explore all the possibilities available to their build, and therefore focus less on one particular aspect (dps in this case). That's perfectly understandable. After playing a while you'll come to realize the importance of dps; maybe not to make a min/max dps build, but at least to reach max dps potential for your particular build. Also, you'll see that sometimes you don't need to be great at everything else you do, when simply being good enough is all you need. Keep playing your characters, and with experience you'll be able to tweak them in all the right places to squeeze more dps than you thought possible, without having to give up on the other stuff you like to do. Just be open to advice and suggestions.

[grodon9999]

I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

Rogue = damage first. You'll still have enough skills to do any rogue thing if you maximize damage.

I'll agree with you that a lot of the talk in the forums is extremley one-dimensional about DPS being 100% the named of the game. It's much closer to 99%

And NOT ONE QUEST IN THE GAME requires everyone to be a "max-dps" build. Honestly I'd be shocked if "max-DPS" builds accounted for more than 1/10 of 1% of the players.

[DaSawks]

DPS is a measure of a toons ability to deal damage. WOW what a revelation. What are we really talking about here? Does the quest require toons to be the focus of the mobs anger. Can a group of 12 casters run through the Shroud? Maybe. Can a group of 12 barb/fighters do the same? Maybe. All groups need balance. If the damage dealing ability (DPS) is gimped or the casting prowess of the casters is gimped then the party is in trouble.

[Cyr]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

Rogues are a dps class. They are not a support class such as bards or a spell casting class such as arcanes and divines. As such yes one of their primary build points is their dps.

Rogues can easily obtain very serviceable numbers in trapping and umd. Generally the problem comes from new players not realizing how much you can boost your trapping skill through buffs and items making them incorrectly believe that to do traps in the game you have to gimp your physical stats on your rogue. Another less common pitfall is the belief that most of the skills in the game have any significant value when in practice most range from completly useless to mostly useless.

[DaSawks]

DPS is a measure of a toons ability to deal damage. WOW what a revelation. What are we really talking about here? Does the quest require melee toons to be the focus of the mobs anger so the casters can cast with being attacked. Can a group of 12 casters run through the Shroud? Maybe. Can a group of 12 barb/fighters do the same? Maybe. All groups need balance. If the damage dealing ability (DPS) is gimped or the casting prowess of the casters is gimped then the party is in trouble.

[eonfreon]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

I'm not really understanding your issue too much. You sound like you might've had a bad experience with some pain in the butt elitist or something.
Skills are very important. UMD for scrolls is a very strong trait for Rogues and Bards (and whoever else can afford to push it up). Trap finding and disabling can be very useful.
And in the endyou have to kill the enemies. Yes, much can be stealthed. But a balanced party will generally have those that can't stealth.
What's the use of you avoiding enemies that the Barbarian can't sneak past? Sneak past them to get an advantage, then let the Barbarian run up and anger everything, then you can help with sneak attack, and watch the dps skyrocket.
A Bard's utility comes with his spells and songs. Incapacitating a Mob is a form of "DPS".
And while healing Clerics and FvS are great. Ones who can assist with their spells to take out the enemies even before you take any damage are even greater.
In a static group it's easy to know everyone's role. In a PUG people have to feel it out better, and being built for multiple roles mean you can take up some slack. After all, if a Wiz/Rog multiclass can already disable the traps, they won't need a Rogue just for that.