Halfling Thrower: Report from the field

[Vallin]

This will be a lengthy post and intended only for those interested in some analysis on this much-debated build and my recent experiences.

The Build:
I am not putting the character planner together because I think there is small room for deviation and I honestly don't know what is best as I have not completely looked at all options. This thrower is 12 fighter 8 rogue. The purpose of the 12 fighter levels is to get Kensai II and the 8 rogue levels are for as much sneak attack increase as possible. This halfling thrower is dex based, but strength, con, int, and cha can not be dumped. I received a lot of in game opinion to go strength based/brutal throw oriented but this build is more about maxxing dex.

Strength can not be dumped.
Intelligence can not be dumped because this character also functions as a serviceable rogue.
Con can not be dumped for obvious reasons.
Charisma can not be dumped because you will need enough to functionally use blur wands and heal scrolls as you level.

Feats that I found to be important are thrown weapon specialization, quickdraw, improved precise shot, toughness, two weapon fighting, and UMD skill.

Level progression is a tough call. Having Kensai early has its allure, but the character functions better as a rogue so it is tough not to get all the rogue levels out of the way.

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Performance while leveling: This was a painful build to level and I did so almost entirely within guild. There were some levels (especially low levels) where this build was simply not contributing as compared to all his half orc barbarian compatriots that were leveling at the same time. Having good weapons is critical and can not be underestimated in importance. As soon as a plain +1 holy throwing weapon can be achieved that begins to make a huge difference. If you can ever find a rr: weapon like this it would be even more helpful.

This build REQUIRES that someone else gets primary aggro. This character is the largest aggro magnet I have ever played, and I have capped an arcane archer. You need to have A LOT of experience in knowing how to manage and control aggro if you want to play this kind of character. Even after investing some enhancement points in subtle backstab this character generates aggro like mad. It became a running guild joke, because mobs would literally bypass the raged barbs to find the irritating little halfling with the throwing axe. You need to avoid aggro at all costs because you need sneak attack to max your dps contribution.

Alternately, if you have a quest that requires kiting, this is the perfect build. Again, you have to understand when to turn off improved precise shot and how to use greater range to eliminate the extra sneak attack at times to make sure you aren't pulling aggro from the group. This is also why you MUST NOT dump con, because mobs WILL try to find you and WILL try to kill you. If you don't want the group to hate you, you have to be prepared to turtle up and take some pain.

Improved precise shot and ranged vorpal axes were a big boost to performance and were critical in terms of improving the character's party contribution. Again, knowledge of ranged play is critical. Character positioning to line up mobs, to control amount of dps output, and mitigation of aggro generation will all be required. If you play this character well, no one will ever know where you are in the environment, but things will be dying all around them and they won't have the kills!

As with all ranged characters, you need to know when to put away the throwing axe and when to melee. This character (using fighter haste boost) will be a vorpaling machine for trash mobs. As would be expected of any twf melee, this character performs well in these situations. In VoD she ruled the trash kill count and disabled the traps with no difficulties.

However, I have found this character to be largely useless against constructs (smiting is a horrible strategy with a thrower). Dual wielding greater construct bane weps is the only viable contribution for Shroud portals, etc. The only time I found range to be helpful against constructs was in Von 3 where an anarchic throwing axe of greater construct bane can be used to take down the marut while other party members control and limit the mob's movement.

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UMD:

I just want to mention that you NEED THIS. In my opinion, any toon with this many rogue levels has to use heal scrolls and having overall party utility helps to improve party contribution when you don't have a primary dps build.

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Hatred:

You will generate a lot of player hate for even showing up in a quest with this build. In fairness, I understand this to a certain degree and that is precisely why I mostly leveled this character within the guild. In the aforementioned VoD run the group was very kind when at the end I said "I will now admit to everyone that this is a halfling thrower build!" It got a lot of laughs and people saw the contribution in the stat sheet.

However, this is not the kind of character that you should be joining speed shroud runs with, because it is not a max dps machine - plain and simply put. I also have some reservations about ToD because of my experience with ranged aggro when that quest first came out. I haven't ranged with any character in that quest since the first wipe when it was first released! However, I am fairly certain that this character could kite the shadows with no problem.

In a recent Shroud run this character did its usual twf portal beating with melee, vorping efficiency on trash in parts 2 and 3, went unnoticed in part 4 - but was called out for ranging in part 5. The hatred was intense, even though I linked a Lightning Two throwing axe that was obviously working and the kill count demonstrated that there was obvious trash mob contribution. The visceral hatred was more than I have ever received before - and I have been playing this game for 4 years and have capped every class.

For the hatred alone I am not sure that I will be taking this toon outside of guild runs ever again. That makes me sad, because this was all a large and fun experiment and it was a tremendous challenge to find ways to make this build contribute in a meaningful way.

Anyway, that is my Halfling Thrower report from the field.

Out.

Tousle

(Vallin)

[Dopey_Power]

Would using shuriken be too much of a damage hit for the benefit of a thousand stars from the monk? I'm totally clueless on ranged builds, so excuse the question if it's a stupid one.

[coolpenguin410]

I also have a thrower build. It was one of my first characters and I managed to level him to 16 before I realized how truly gimped he was (I had no melee characters at the time). I am also very sad about how this type of character is lacking. I really hope the Master Thrower PrE suggested comes to life.

That said, I am curious about what feats you actually took for this build and far you managed to level it. Did you get all the way to 20? Did you take the TWF tree or just took the penalties when twf'ing?

My character is 1 fighter and 15 rogue. If it would make for a decent character, I may LR him into a few more levels of fighter.

[Bogenbroom]

That is so funny, I was just thinking of making one, strictly for giggles. Helpful post, I'd never even considered that improved precise shot could be used with thrown weapons.

[Sydril]

There is someone in my guild who just recently capped a dwarven level 20 kensai 3 throwing axe fighter and I have seen first hand that he does as much damage as many melees in many scenarios, as well as having the option for strong melee when needed.

He crits for between 150-180 damage on a 18-20 with a lightning 2 throwing axe and gets aprox 65-70 unbuffed throws per minute which matches a level 20 ranger (without manyshot) although he has haste boosts to push this number higher. Quickdraw and the 10% fighter capstone offsets the speed that a ranger gets with their 25% capstone. We tested both to check the differences.

Also a note: Thrown (and ranged) attack speed increases with base attack bonus, and the fighter capstone applies a 10% competence bonus to thrown attack speed.

[Sillk]

This thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274374 shows a monk variant doing some pretty good damage with a throwing star. I would think some Halfling might help, but it also shows Halfling isn't a must.

[Vallin]

I also have a thrower build. It was one of my first characters and I managed to level him to 16 before I realized how truly gimped he was (I had no melee characters at the time). I am also very sad about how this type of character is lacking. I really hope the Master Thrower PrE suggested comes to life.

That said, I am curious about what feats you actually took for this build and far you managed to level it. Did you get all the way to 20? Did you take the TWF tree or just took the penalties when twf'ing?

My character is 1 fighter and 15 rogue. If it would make for a decent character, I may LR him into a few more levels of fighter.

This build is currently capped as described: Halfling 12 fighter (Kensai II)/8 rogue.

Current feats include:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Shot
Improved Critical (Thrown)
Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus (Thrown)
Weapon Spec/Greater Weapon Spec (Thrown)

Two Weapon Fighting
Skill Focus UMD

Toughness (twice)

This character currently has 402 hp, and needs a Shroud HP item, a +3 con tome, and +2 exceptional con to get into the minimal acceptable hp range for epics, but I believe this is relatively achievable. I may LR and boost CON a little more - still thinking about it. With the ability to self heal it hasn't gotten too dicey and survivability has never been an issue but I am sensitive to this.

I have not yet taken this character into epics but it does well with all other content. Improved precise shot and proper positioning is extraordinarily powerful with the Lit 2 throwing axe. Based on my positive experience with a Trap the Soul Bow on an arcane archer (for times when you don't want as much damage/aggro production) I am thinking of crafting a similar throwing axe as that works nicely on epic mobs for instakills. Improved Precise Shot and proper positioning makes the effective proc rate pretty high.

It has been a very entertaining play experience, but as I said before, be prepared for a lot of derisive comments and hate from people who are looking for cookie cutter builds.

Vallin.

[Maxelcat]

sounds like a fun build.

i wonder how a bunch of these would do in quests.

I've always wanted wanted to do a whole repeater party just for fun.

i think that's the hate really. everyone is convinced range = bad... and forget Game = Fun.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

A little late as I just noticed this thread, but I also have leveled a halfling fighter to level 20 that specialized in thrown weapons. I also pugged a lot. I got mixed emotions but overall most people accepted it as just another gimp I guess. I just made sure to ask the leader of the party before applying if this build was acceptable, most said it was fine.

I'm currently working on the 6th version of this build, but with all the lives involved it will take a great many months before it will be complete. People often ask why I bother, and I just tell them I built it because it's different. Albeit most people don't attempt it for a reason, that reason being it's not max DPS and can be considered a lot less survivable than most other builds. But I built it all the same, just to show them.

There are a few things I've been trying to work around in my head as I try to think of what would work better. The first being which weapon type? The dagger has a larger crit range, and combined with kensai you'd be criting quite a bit more often than with an axe, but the axe has a larger dice and crit multiplier. I ran into another thrower build in one quest and he was using daggers and he said he was happy with the difference.

So if you choose axe you could potentially use Dwarf for the additional axe damage (amongst other things), but halflings have equivalent increased damage enhancements but include to hit enhancements also. But a halfling fighter offers enhancements to both dex and strength.

I've also considered a half orc str build. The problem is, the feats I'd like to have (most of which are already outlined) require high dex also. So you could go ranger to get them by default but lose the kensai line. Improved precise shot requires dex 19 but is free to a ranger...

Another thing I'd like to know is, the completionist feat... if you had 17 dex, would completionist count when considering prerequiste dex for improved precise shot? Nobody can give me a straight answer.

Also, the quiver from Abbot (or black scale armor for that matter) what type of alacrity bonus is it? enhancement? Would it stack in with all the other bonuses in your "average" thrown build? If it doesn't stack with the fighter capstone, then that opens up a more options for a kensai fighter.

Suffice to say have a lot of things to work out but it would help if someone had the answers rather than me trying to figure it out on my own.

[Reynarde]

I tried a halfling Rogue/Fighter thrower build. I gave up around level 9 for several reasons:

Improved Precise Shot requirements
--This is the only ability that makes a thrower build remotely viable and fun to play, and you need BAB +11 to get it. That is a long time to wait to have fun with a toon, especially for Rogues. Give throwers a unique feat that functions like Imp. Precise Shot, but without the BAB requirement, and players could actually have fun leveling this build.

Good throwing weapons are hard to find
--I was constantly frustrated by how rare and expensive good returning throwers are. The problem is two fold; return thrower drops are rare to begin with, and every class that can use them wants them. They're convenient little toys that give every melee and support class in the game a ranged option. Good luck finding a holy return thrower on the auction house. I checked for almost two weeks and found one selling for 50k. That's worse price gauging than you get with rapiers.

DDO's hit detection
--This is something all ranged classes have to deal with, but its worse for throwers because their rate of fire is so low. Hitting a target that is coming towards you at a diagonal is a complete toss up, and I've even "lost" shots on targets that are standing still. For a thrower this is a death sentence because every lost shot is a huge penalty to his dps.

Some of the best Rogue abilities don't work with ranged attacks
--Smite construct, assassinate, subtle back-stabbing

Halfling thrower enhancements
--are too expensive. It should be a 1/2/3 progression, not 2/4/6

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

I tried a halfling Rogue/Fighter thrower build. I gave up around level 9 for several reasons:

Improved Precise Shot requirements
--This is the only ability that makes a thrower build remotely viable and fun to play, and you need BAB +11 to get it. That is a long time to wait to have fun with a toon, especially for Rogues. Give throwers a unique feat that functions like Imp. Precise Shot, but without the BAB requirement, and players could actually have fun leveling this build.

Good throwing weapons are hard to find
--I was constantly frustrated by how rare and expensive good returning throwers are. The problem is two fold; return thrower drops are rare to begin with, and every class that can use them wants them. They're convenient little toys that give every melee and support class in the game a ranged option. Good luck finding a holy return thrower on the auction house. I checked for almost two weeks and found one selling for 50k. That's worse price gauging than you get with rapiers.

DDO's hit detection
--This is something all ranged classes have to deal with, but its worse for throwers because their rate of fire is so low. Hitting a target that is coming towards you at a diagonal is a complete toss up, and I've even "lost" shots on targets that are standing still. For a thrower this is a death sentence because every lost shot is a huge penalty to his dps.

Some of the best Rogue abilities don't work with ranged attacks
--Smite construct, assassinate, subtle back-stabbing

Halfling thrower enhancements
--are too expensive. It should be a 1/2/3 progression, not 2/4/6

I had thought about incorporating rogue into my thrower experiments but found it to be lacking. The fact thrower build draw aggro like Bruce willis in the Die Hard series makes the sneak attack mediocre at best. Plus while it doesn't seem like much, the fighter capstone adds thrown attack speed and helps out your melee a bit with increase double strike chance. The first levels are more like what many casters seem to be doing these days. Grab a weapon and beat them down. Besides, for any thrower build to be effective they still need to have some melee.

The rarity of weapons is a tough thing. I spent a long time gathering some decent returning thrown weapons together. It can be expensive and you gotta be willing to put a lot of effort forth, but the greensteel weapons, as always, increase your damage extensively. I can easily see why nobody would want to go ahead with such a large investment on such a "minimal" character.

I'm not sure about your hit detection issue. There used to be an issue with weapons randomly going off in odd directions when targetting through an NPC or party member. But the auto attack and active and passive targetting system helped with that considerably. They recently made some additional changes to help with this issue but I've been concentrating on past lives and haven't had much of a chance to test them out.

I agree the cost of the enhancements is higher than I think they should be.

[unbongwah]

I just posted a halfling barb thrower based on an idea from Anneliese.

[Vallin]

I periodically get asked in game about the Tousle halfling thrower build - and recent game changes made me remember to come back here and post some additional thoughts for anyone wanting to play with thrower builds.

1. The change to vorpals severely gimped this build, because vorpaling with a ranged weapon was a highly effective strategy when used strategically with improved precise shot. Now that things are not insta-vorped on a 20 (depending on their remaining hp) you are likely to have more powerful mobs hunting you down trying to kick your little halfling tail.

2. As previously mentioned this build is a crazy aggro magnet and the lack of insta-vorp makes it even worse. It got so bad in quests that I actually LR'd and invested in Diplomacy. Now I have a fair understanding of how to use intimidate as I have stalwart defenders and defender of siberys builds but in all my years of playing this game I never really used Diplo much (maybe on chests, for fun!). Well, let me tell you that Diplo, invested in large amounts, makes the vorpal nerf not so much of a problem. I never recommended kiting as a strategy with this build and instead suggested that people turtle up and take the pain - but using Diplo cut down any thought of kiting dramatically, which makes gameplay a lot more enjoyable for the other people in your group.

So if you want to play this kind of toon - now consider Diplomacy. It makes a world of difference in aggro management for this build.

Vallin.