Petition to keep the bonus from manual with true reincarnation

[Phidius]

Signed.

And the simple way to implement this would be to just have the BTC +3/+4 tomes not disappear when they are read. They are BTC so know one else can use them, only this toon in a future TR.

That doesn't sound simple at all, compared to just applying the tomes benefit at the minimum level of each bonus, exactly how the LR/GR does it now.

[dkyle]

That doesn't sound simple at all, compared to just applying the tomes benefit at the minimum level of each bonus, exactly how the LR/GR does it now.

How is it complicated? Most items in the game don't disappear when used.

I suspect there are significant differences between how TR and LR/GR work, otherwise I think they'd have kept the tomes in the first place.

Unless you mean not simple to the player, in which case, yes, using the LR/GR system would be more user friendly.

[joneb1999]

In my defence I said "in my opinion". I agree with you the game is not the same game as it was back then as you yourself explained. As players with toons at level 17 and above can still have wipes during it with access to better spells and equipment than your level 12s (as you yourself inferred) you fail to convince me its the same difficulty. As seasoned players also can struggle during it on occasion at level 17 and above I believe even more the difficulty level is up. For instance at level 12 the hp for most toons wont be enough for many to survive one of Harrys delayed blast fireballs in todays Shroud.

I will only accept that it is the same difficulty if a bunch of non tr level 12s can still go into it and consistantly beat it time and again or if Turbine says it is without doubt. If you can record a video of a raid party of level 12s completing the current Shroud three times I will believe you can do it.

In regards to the original post I took it Blacksteels post was a dig at how easy we are getting it and the idea we want it easier as if we just want it all handed to us. So if someone was to do Shroud with level 12s with extreme difficulty, lots of deaths, it occurs to me the bragging aspect of being able to do the Shroud at level 12 is reduced by just how ridiculous it is regarding the fact you need to be able to do the Shroud succesfully so many many times to get large ingredients every 3 days and only the best can achieve it once every so often at level 12. Also if its a lvl 12 party with mostly fighter type melees (barbs, rangers etc) and only a couple of clerics and one other thing, caster or bard for buffs, even though you beat it it reveals how a more balanced party or party with a lot more squishy types would not be a consideration.

So someone thought that my post merited a -1 rep because Im not accepting vet players trying to make out newer players want things handed to them using the old "we did the Shroud at level 12" argument. I went out my way to be polite and not insulting or aggressive so it always ceases to amaze me when people have such an ego that they give minus rep for just disagreeing with them. Thats the danger of upsetting someone who can give out minus rep.

The Shroud runs the vets keep referring to was in a different time in the game and many things have moved along including I believe changes in difficulty to balance out the higher levels, more powerful spells and introduction of more and more helpful items and other game mechanics. The Shroud is a level 17 quest that people can get some seriously powerful items from running and today its run more often by players of lvl 17 to cap who are tooled up much better than ever and still it isnt always an easy run even with vets involved.

So in regards to the original post to bring it back to topic players are not asking for things to be made easier for them with tome benefits that last after TR. They are asking for fairness regarding losing something they grinded for or that many still pay for often with TP or ingame plat from the AH. +2 tome are going for an average of 250kplat from the AH. Its not for ease or laziness some players are asking for, just to limit the same grind on every new life of their toon or stop otherwise not being able to use tomes because they will lose them after TR or not having an unfair money sink mechanic.

[biggin]

So someone thought that my post merited a -1 rep because Im not accepting vet players trying to make out newer players want things handed to them using the old "we did the Shroud at level 12" argument. I went out my way to be polite and not insulting or aggressive so it always ceases to amaze me when people have such an ego that they give minus rep for just disagreeing with them. Thats the danger of upsetting someone who can give out minus rep.

The Shroud runs the vets keep referring to was in a different time in the game and many things have moved along including I believe changes in difficulty to balance out the higher levels, more powerful spells and introduction of more and more helpful items and other game mechanics. The Shroud is a level 17 quest that people can get some seriously powerful items from running and today its run more often by players of lvl 17 to cap who are tooled up much better than ever and still it isnt always an easy run even with vets involved.

So in regards to the original post to bring it back to topic players are not asking for things to be made easier for them with tome benefits that last after TR. They are asking for fairness regarding losing something they grinded for or that many still pay for often with TP or ingame plat from the AH. +2 tome are going for an average of 250kplat from the AH. Its not for ease or laziness some players are asking just to limit the same grind on every new life of their toon or not being able to use tomes because they wil lose them after TR or not having an unfair money sink mechanic.

+1 even though I disagree with you. I hate neg rep when it's passed out during a debate where people are staying civilized.

As to the Shroud, I was here before and after (obviously), and yes, it was completed on lower level toons on a regular basis. However, I think that a big part of it was that the server populations were alot smaller. You couldn't join a PuG Shroud without knowing at a minimum 6 people in the raid, and maybe 1 guild name you never heard of. I won't get into the "new vs old" player debate, but when HoX, VoD, Reaver and Shroud were pretty much the only end game, you went into PuGs that were well prepared mostly, and if you weren't......well, it wasn't a secret and you better come prepared the next time. It was hard to not get noticed if your toon/play skills were lacking and there was almost no server anonymity.

Back to the topic at hand....I just don't see it. If all the tomes used never disappeared, it would kill the content that is used to farm them except by new players. Most vets have the items they want, they just use Reaver, VoD, HoX, etc to farm for tomes. Without this incentive those raids would get run as much as Titan. After 20-40 runs on average, after you gained the items you needed (sometimes even faster if done in guild/with friends) there would be no reason to ever step foot back in there with that toon. And since TR is the new end game and fewer vets ever roll brand new toons there wouldn't ever be another item needed. Heck, even new players that are completely unguilded are TRing multiple times. If we had high level content coming out in the 15-18 range on a regular basis I would see no problem with it. As it stands however, we need reasons to run those raids, tomes being the only one.

[Krag]

Back to the topic at hand....I just don't see it. If all the tomes used never disappeared, it would kill the content that is used to farm them except by new players. Most vets have the items they want, they just use Reaver, VoD, HoX, etc to farm for tomes. Without this incentive those raids would get run as much as Titan. After 20-40 runs on average, after you gained the items you needed (sometimes even faster if done in guild/with friends) there would be no reason to ever step foot back in there with that toon. And since TR is the new end game and fewer vets ever roll brand new toons there wouldn't ever be another item needed. Heck, even new players that are completely unguilded are TRing multiple times. If we had high level content coming out in the 15-18 range on a regular basis I would see no problem with it. As it stands however, we need reasons to run those raids, tomes being the only one.

Unfortunately disappearing tomes are not a cure. Noone is insane enough to regrind +3/+4 tomes each life. With the very few exceptions people either sit on their tomes avoiding TR or banking their hardearned tomes until Completionist.

[joneb1999]

+1 even though I disagree with you. I hate neg rep when it's passed out during a debate where people are staying civilized.

As to the Shroud, I was here before and after (obviously), and yes, it was completed on lower level toons on a regular basis. However, I think that a big part of it was that the server populations were alot smaller. You couldn't join a PuG Shroud without knowing at a minimum 6 people in the raid, and maybe 1 guild name you never heard of. I won't get into the "new vs old" player debate, but when HoX, VoD, Reaver and Shroud were pretty much the only end game, you went into PuGs that were well prepared mostly, and if you weren't......well, it wasn't a secret and you better come prepared the next time. It was hard to not get noticed if your toon/play skills were lacking and there was almost no server anonymity.

Back to the topic at hand....I just don't see it. If all the tomes used never disappeared, it would kill the content that is used to farm them except by new players. Most vets have the items they want, they just use Reaver, VoD, HoX, etc to farm for tomes. Without this incentive those raids would get run as much as Titan. After 20-40 runs on average, after you gained the items you needed (sometimes even faster if done in guild/with friends) there would be no reason to ever step foot back in there with that toon. And since TR is the new end game and fewer vets ever roll brand new toons there wouldn't ever be another item needed. Heck, even new players that are completely unguilded are TRing multiple times. If we had high level content coming out in the 15-18 range on a regular basis I would see no problem with it. As it stands however, we need reasons to run those raids, tomes being the only one.

Thanks for the rep. In regards to the tomes I dont think they should be the reason for repeatedly running certain raids or that making them last through TR breaks much especially as +1 and +2 tomes can be bought and sold on the AH and bought through TP. I do agree though those raids need a better incentive to run them. Perhaps adding a slight possibility of large shroud ingredients falling would be more of an incentive. However probably the biggest incentive would be to make epic versions of those raids soon.

[smatt]

How complictated is this? Some people want yet ANOTHER lazy/easy button in the game.. Some don't.....

If it happens it WLL BE a DDO store item.... And it will likely happen....

[dkyle]

How complictated is this? Some people want yet ANOTHER lazy/easy button in the game.. Some don't.....

And some think "easy button" is lazy term. An easy way to oppose something while giving no good reason for it to stay the same way.

On the other hand, biggin brings up a good point. There should be a reason for people to continue to run Raids. But I think adding BtA or unbound loot to those Raids would be a better option than keeping the degenerate effect on the game tome-loss brings. And the epic versions of DQ and VoN have both done that. Shards and Seals are BtA, scrolls and Flawless Red Dragon Scales are unbound. Both Raids are now run much more often than before they were epic'd.

[biggin]

Unfortunately disappearing tomes are not a cure. Noone is insane enough to regrind +3/+4 tomes each life. With the very few exceptions people either sit on their tomes avoiding TR or banking their hardearned tomes until Completionist.

I agree with the fact that not many people would grind these to 20 completions on something they are going to TR right away again. But it's really the only reason to even run them with the off chance one will drop randomly, or just to take a break from the 6 minute/rinse and repeat quests. There are alot of people running epics on TR's, so there has to be a good percentage of players who either are willing to wait to epic up an item to TR, so they could possibly run these raids, or players who are done with TR for that toon for a while. Either way, the raid items that come from them are almost all subpar to epics or have already been grinded out.

I'm not dismissing that maybe a mechanic could be put in, possibly some middle ground found. Maybe even another feat that you could take to 'remember' your tomes. But I do think that doing this would basically be Turbine shooting itself in the foot unless they epic these raids, like someone has just mentioned.

[Krag]

And some think "easy button" is lazy term. An easy way to oppose something while giving no good reason for it to stay the same way.

On the other hand, biggin brings up a good point. There should be a reason for people to continue to run Raids. But I think adding BtA or unbound loot to those Raids would be a better option than keeping the degenerate effect on the game tome-loss brings. And the epic versions of DQ and VoN have both done that. Shards and Seals are BtA, scrolls and Flawless Red Dragon Scales are unbound. Both Raids are now run much more often than before they were epic'd.

I have a better idea. Let the raid loot take permanent damage or let it last 100 hours. Because permanent raid loot is an easy button for lazy players.

[joneb1999]

The bottom line is there no question of an easy button in the OPS request as any decent player can grind enough to get tomes if they want that tired and monotonous slog. Any player with plenty cash and TP points can buy the tomes if they want to pay for them. Theres no easier button than that. About 9 months ago with my first toons in the game the tomes that dropped for me were quite abundant in comparison to now and really in all those months since with more toons to cap and a TR I have had only one +2 tome drop for me. I get the impression they have been made more rare than ever so more are sold through the shop but then again I may have just got lucky at the beginning.

In a time when players judge each other by their stats and elite equipment, when many want MyDDO fixed so they can discard toons not up to their standard, the grind is unreasonable for TRs to go through again. The grind is unreasonable when much better game mechanics than +2 tomes are available in some incredible armor, weapons and equipment that are not lost on TR.

Perhaps the TR players who dont want tomes to be of permanent effect will accept bound to character raid and epic items also being lost on TR and have to go through the grind for them again. I would suspect the honest answer is they wouldn't want that because they cant be saved on other toons or in the shared bank like all the tomes they have saved up. Why shouldnt tome effects be permanent through TR since those tomes are won fair and square just like every other quest item drops and rewards in the game.

Just to emphasise permanent tomes lasting through TR isn't an easy button its a switch to turn off unreasonable grind. Its a switch to stop the loss of items won fair and square just like every other item that drops in chests. Its a switch to stop plat and Turbine Points spent becoming wasted.

I have a better idea. Let the raid loot take permanent damage or let it last 100 hours. Because permanent raid loot is an easy button for lazy players.

So you are advocating more grind for the same things time and again?

[Cyr]

How complicated is this? Some people want yet ANOTHER lazy/easy button in the game.. Some don't.....

If it happens it WLL BE a DDO store item.... And it will likely happen....

This seems to be a common theme in this debate. The label of easy button to tome retention is inappropriate.

The entire TR system has one huge flaw at it's center and that is the false equation that grind = challenge. Everything about the TR system encourages grind while at the same time the TR system encourages the running of easy quests. Tome retention or lack therefore is merely a matter of grind as tomes are acquired from what are frankly under level raids at this point in time. Even +4's only require normal ToD completions...not exactly top of the line difficulty there when you have tons of epic quests and raids out.

The easiest way I can think of to implement the tome retention would be to have the TR NPC populate your inventory with the highest + of tomes you have eaten when you talk to them (BtC of course). This way you could get 100 tomes sure, but it wouldn't do you any good to do so.

The entire TR mechanic of leveling your toon needs to be redone to encourage the running of difficult quests over easy quests. The goal of TR's should not be to make people so bored that they quit the game due to the system.

My favorite recommendation about this subject restated here...

* Have an alternative method of achieving levels with TR's....
* TR's may talk the appropriate trainer and gain exactly enough experience to level up if they have completed 4 + # of times they have TR'd quests of their current level on Elite (in this case the elite version is the level of the quest on normal for their current level not the two level lower ones that elite mode counts as for xp purposes) or every quest of that level that exists on Elite. Require that these completions not have anyone more then two levels higher then the quest (on normal) in the helping to complete the quest (ie this means the highest level party members can only be equal to the modified quest level on elite). Have the favor panel show this favor number in some different color if it was gathered in a non-valid manner for TR leveling purposes so people can check this.
* TR's of level 17+ can access epic content.
* Epic quests and Level 20+ quests count as level 19 quests for these purposes
* Keep the normal silly high TR xp tables for those who wish to grind out a level or more

This would drastically increase the percentage of elite at level quests that TR's run making game play for them more challenging and by extension more enjoyable by being less mind numbing.

[Albrecht555]

After reading most opinions might as well give my 2 cents. I do agree that this game is full of grinding, where it should be full of more options and fun. I can understand that most companies who run these kind of games do this to keep players playing longer and thus contributing to the community, however, IMHO this most of the time has an adverse outcome.

Grinding is needed and I think most like it to some EXTENT, now when grinding means waiting 2 months minimum to have a chance of getting 1 item you need from a raid theres something wrong with the system. Atm I got most the items I want and yes they really make a difference, but I also got to a point where I lost most the fun I had with the game when I started playing, which was the Ad&D feeling to it, the low levels, the groups and interaction. This said I dont really think that grinding all the items again with every char I want to play makes me want to play more, but the opposite, I find myself dont wanting to roll new toons as my main is just too strong to neglect. Were I given the chance to have my hard earned items on other chars I for one would roll loads more char and thus playing alot more. This to make my point that people would stay longer in the game if more opportunities were given to them, not the other way around.

Tomes are a delicated matter. Getting +3 and god forbids +4 tomes is a HUGE timesink where one starts to dont want to log into the game anymore after repeating the same old boring raids every 3 days... Not speaking for others but I for one feel like that after playing months of the same content just to TR and then have a little fun. Now only thinking that after a hard earned TR I must find myself strenght to do it all over again just makes me want to do something else. So yes I do support this idea 100%.

For those that adress this matter as an easy button... How is wanting to use my time to actually play an ENTIRE game instead of the same old boring quests for months an easy button when I already have done that and actually earned all those items? IMHO thats just wanting to have fun and explore more options (new chars/builds) now that I have items for them. Every MMORPG has a lifespan which varies from player to player, although, a balance usualy leads to a more active community and healthier game. I dont want an easy button but I also dont want a huge boring grind. It is possible to have balance.


Just my 2 cents.

[sweez]

My 2 cents: bought/randomly looted unbound +1/+2 (or whichever accidentally gained in the festivult lol) tomes should get erased on a TR - if you're TRing and dont have the plat to re-buy +1/+2 tomes then you prolly shouldn't be TR-ing anyway. Plat still exchanges hands, via the AH it still gets sucked out of the game economy.

However, bound raid-loot +3/+4 tomes should cross-over and get applied at their ML. If you get to keep all of the other bound stuff, it just doesnt make sense to lose the tomes, which you probably spent most in-game time grinding for in the first place anyway.