Petition to keep the bonus from manual with true reincarnation

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

I didn't read all the pages in the discussion but I really don't see a convincing argument for why the same tome scaling effect as LR and GR shouldn't be applied. And there are definite sound arguments for why they should be applied, in-game wise and lore wise.

Lore wise, tomes represent knowledge! Its not as though these characters get wiped clean from their previous life. This is evident from PL feats.

Now, in-game wise I don't see an adequate response to why people should be punished for eating tomes; especially the rare variety such as the +3 and +4 tomes.

This currently implemented system punishes the players who ate tomes before TRing existed. I don't see why Turbine punishes the players who have played for longer and are more likely to want to TR.

For the rest of the DDO community, I don't see why people would want tomes at all if you have any desire to TR in the future. Seeing how the end game currently involves epics (which usually means you're looking for gear) and TRing, I feel that tomes have become something of a trap.

Certainly, one might think that its fine as long as you pull the same tome for the same stat you'll be fine right? Its easy to say, grind em out! But why should you have to grind for them AFTER you TR when you didn't need to recraft your GS items?

I can't think of a reason and don't know why Turbine is punishing players like this.
If anyone can enlighten me, that'd be great!

[dkyle]

well it is possible to get BtA +3's out of epic DQ. And you can get unbound 3s or 4s from the jester, as exhibited by the auction going on right now on the main page.

I think everyone agrees that reusable and BtA/unbound tomes are a terrible idea. Each tome should only be usable by one character. By making them disappear on use, the 3.5 PnP game accomplished this goal. They're also supposed to be permanent, and in PnP, they are. Currently, TRing breaks that property. Making sure any BtA/unbound tome becomes BtC would ensure that the "one user per tome" property remains, while reusability could make sure the "permanently applies" property is restored.

[Antheal]

Does Pen & Paper D&D have TRing?

[Eschelon]

Does Pen & Paper D&D have TRing?

Yes, but not in the same way as implemented in game. In pnp though you can get inherent bonuses from wish or miracle spell too, all the way to 5 by casting in succession.

[Meetch1972]

While I would love the bonus to be kept, I can't help but think that keeping all of your pre-TR bonus is overpowered. Perhaps something like a point of the bonus you had last time was kept, or given back automagically during level progression, 4 levels later, or when you hit L20 Say:
Pre reincarnation N, you had an inherent bonus of +2 wis, +2 cha, +3 int, +3 dex, +4 str and +4 con.

After incarnation N you eat a +1 wis tome at L3 and get the second point at L7.
You don't eat a cha tome, and get +1 granted at L20. If you then eat a +1 cha tome it's as if you'd eaten a +2.
You eat a +2 int tome at L10 point and get a third point granted at L14
You eat a +2 dex tome at L20 and get all 3 points.
You eat a +3 str tome at L19 and get the 4th point at L20
You eat a +2 con tome at L12 and get the third point at L16 (but don't get to +4). Later on you find a +3 con tome and eat that, and it gives you the fourth point.

But say you never ate that +3 con tome, leaving you at +3, then on your next incarnation you would need to find and eat a +2 to get it back up to +3, or find and munch a +4 tome if you want it back up to +4.

Does it make sense? If so, is it fair compromise? I understand that this may be difficult to explain succinctly in the tome's tooltip. Is it too convoluted? Thoughts?

[BlackSteel]

I think everyone agrees that reusable and BtA/unbound tomes are a terrible idea. Each tome should only be usable by one character. By making them disappear on use, the 3.5 PnP game accomplished this goal. They're also supposed to be permanent, and in PnP, they are. Currently, TRing breaks that property. Making sure any BtA/unbound tome becomes BtC would ensure that the "one user per tome" property remains, while reusability could make sure the "permanently applies" property is restored.

what does BTA or unbound have to do with one user? its still consumed. I dont remember saying anything about reusable tomes.

[patang01]

While I would love the bonus to be kept, I can't help but think that keeping all of your pre-TR bonus is overpowered.

What's the difference between a 32 point with a +4 tome and a 1 time TR that just ate a +4 tome? The 2 points he got from TRing. The diffence after the second and third TR is another 2 points.

In theory if the same person had 10 stored +4 tomes the only overpowering difference is the incredible notion that someone have run so often and had the luck to pull all those tomes.

The notion that the maxium of 4 points in difference (and it's mostly 2 points since I have enough +2 tomes stored to use them every single time I TR) makes anyone overpowered fail to note that the biggest reason why anyone dominates any given quest is usually use of build and gear.

I've run as a regular 32 point build with multi TR (they were DPS builds) and 'lead' in kills. If they had a +4 tome of STR at that point I would still lead. I've ran with other people and been close to theirs because they had a much better use of skills and much better gear.

The separation wasn't how many tomes or more ability points but their and my 'power' came from how we both uses what we have. The math for having applied +3 and +4 tomes might come out in favor for TRs but I doubt it makes them significantly more powerful.

[Clay]

This is not by any means "simple".

I thought I was done TRing my Bard. Then HOrc came out. Now it's lose two +3 tomes and a +4 to TR HOrc. Guess the option of TRing HOrc is off the table.

Tomes should absolutely be kept over TRs. We should not have to gamble with raid loot to exercise the option of TRing.



This is not how reincarnation works. The body dies, the soul comes back in a new body. Why does it make any more sense for tomes to die with the body, than it does for them to be kept with the soul?

And given the choice between those two options, I choose the one that doesn't produce the needlessly frustrating choice of having to decide between actually using valuable, and hard-won tomes, and leaving open the option of a TR, in the future, that doesn't destroy said tomes.

the corporal body is the thing eating the tomes... not the incorporeal, intangible soul.

The tomes should not be kept over TRUE REINCARNATES.

[Aaxeyu]

IMO you should not lose the tomes when TRing. It's just stupid.

They should also remove the learning disorder that characters get when TRing, becuase that doesn't make any sense at all, neither from gameplay perspective or "RP" perspective.

[joneb1999]

And with all due respect, by what criteria do you gauge the Shroud's difficulty of now versus then? Did you play it "back then"? I've played the Shroud since it first came out. It is certainly not harder now.

A Raid group that has the same equipment and abilities we had then would have the same chance of failure as we did. Especially if the majority did not know what had to be done.

The fact is when he talks about level 12 and such doing it was because we had done it so many times that we knew exactly what to do and at that point everyone knew what equipment to have. It's not like we waltzed in when the Shroud came out with our level 12s and conquered it. Although some probably could.

You have to remember that Turbine was very slow to put out new content at that time. Veterans had time to farm for alot of equipment before new content finally came out. Other then rolling new alts that's all there was to do.

And it was a much smaller and thus tight-nit community. When someone went into the Shroud on their level 12 they went in with their friends and guildmates.

I just don't know how you can gauge the Shroud's difficulty of now versus then unless you played then. You may believe whatever you wish of course. But the players have more tools at their disposal then they did back then, namely Mass Heal and WoB to name a few

Besides Blacksteel didn't give any wrong or misinformed information. He simply stated the fact that level 12's did the Shroud. He made no comment on it's difficulty, now or then.

However, since you have no data to back up your statements, and actually since we've gone up in power and have more abilities and spells available (let's not forget the PREs too which increased every melee's dps), you are actually in danger of spreading wrong or misinformed information.

In my defence I said "in my opinion". I agree with you the game is not the same game as it was back then as you yourself explained. As players with toons at level 17 and above can still have wipes during it with access to better spells and equipment than your level 12s (as you yourself inferred) you fail to convince me its the same difficulty. As seasoned players also can struggle during it on occasion at level 17 and above I believe even more the difficulty level is up. For instance at level 12 the hp for most toons wont be enough for many to survive one of Harrys delayed blast fireballs in todays Shroud.

I will only accept that it is the same difficulty if a bunch of non tr level 12s can still go into it and consistantly beat it time and again or if Turbine says it is without doubt. If you can record a video of a raid party of level 12s completing the current Shroud three times I will believe you can do it.

In regards to the original post I took it Blacksteels post was a dig at how easy we are getting it and the idea we want it easier as if we just want it all handed to us. So if someone was to do Shroud with level 12s with extreme difficulty, lots of deaths, it occurs to me the bragging aspect of being able to do the Shroud at level 12 is reduced by just how ridiculous it is regarding the fact you need to be able to do the Shroud succesfully so many many times to get large ingredients every 3 days and only the best can achieve it once every so often at level 12. Also if its a lvl 12 party with mostly fighter type melees (barbs, rangers etc) and only a couple of clerics and one other thing, caster or bard for buffs, even though you beat it it reveals how a more balanced party or party with a lot more squishy types would not be a consideration.

[dkyle]

what does BTA or unbound have to do with one user? its still consumed. I dont remember saying anything about reusable tomes.

Silly me. I thought you were replying to the post you replied to which replied to a post expressing concerns about passing reusable tomes around if they weren't BtC.

the corporal body is the thing eating the tomes... not the incorporeal, intangible soul.

OR, the soul, peering through the eyes of the corporeal body, reads the tomes. "Eating" tomes is a humorous colloquialism.

The tomes should not be kept over TRUE REINCARNATES.

In-game lore is fungible. Decisions concerning game design should be made from a game design perspective, not lack of imagination about how the world works.

Edit: You seem to be implying that "TRUE REINCARNAT[ION]" is somehow a thing that works in some obvious, set-in-stone way. That there's some sort of precedence Turbine is following.

There isn't. It's something that Turbine made up. It doesn't exist in 3.5 PnP, and its closest analog there (the Reincarnate spell) does in fact preserve tomes. And the world's religions are, not surprisingly, quite silent on the issue of what happens, after reincarnation, to magical books that increase one's ability scores.

[zukt]

I feel an elegant solution would be an epic item that allows you to scribe tomes at the same level as your inherent bonus. If you have an inherent bonus of +3 int and +4 con you can buy a blank tome or craft it to make a bound to character +3 int or +4 con tome. If you've read the tome you should be able to pen the tome.

Perhaps at a cost of 20 epic dungeon tokens, or purchasable from the DDO store, and dispense with fretting over the consequences of metagaming.

[TPICKRELL]

Signed.

And the simple way to implement this would be to just have the BTC +3/+4 tomes not disappear when they are read. They are BTC so know one else can use them, only this toon in a future TR.

[dkyle]

And the simple way to implement this would be to just have the BTC +3/+4 tomes not disappear when they are read. They are BTC so know one else can use them, only this toon in a future TR.

Yes, I think this would make the most sense too.

However, I'd hope they'd put something in to help out people that have already eaten their tomes, though. Perhaps an NPC vendor that turns a +3 or +4 inherent bonus into the corresponding tome? Make the plat cost high (100k for a +3, 200k for a +4, perhaps) and you have a good way to remove plat from the economy, fighting inflation, by taking it away from the players that have the most plat, and are the primary drivers of inflation.

[Missing_Minds]

And the simple way to implement this would be to just have the BTC +3/+4 tomes not disappear when they are read. They are BTC so know one else can use them, only this toon in a future TR.

I'm not advocating this, but just an FYI, it is all or nothing. You'd need to have the method applied to all tomes, not just "special ones" as it were.

[dkyle]

I'm not advocating this, but just an FYI, it is all or nothing. You'd need to have the method applied to all tomes, not just "special ones" as it were.

It's not "all or nothing". I have less problem with +1/+2 tomes disappearing than +3/+4 Raid loot tomes. A +1/+2 tome just costs a modest amount of plat to get back. A Raid loot tome means dozens of completions, or more. Or potentially never getting it back.

I'd prefer all tomes carried over (unbound/BtA tomes would become BtC on use), but if they just want to do +3/+4 tomes, that's primarily what I'm concerned about.

[Krag]

I'm not advocating this, but just an FYI, it is all or nothing. You'd need to have the method applied to all tomes, not just "special ones" as it were.

Either way nobody cares about +1/+2 tomes.

[smatt]

Coming to a DDO store near you...

You YES you can now keep those incredibly hard to find +2,+3, AND +4 tomes AFTER you True Renincarnate! YES! That's right fellow Stormreach adventurers... For the low Low LOW price of only 3,000 turbine points you can now purchase a "Tome of Infinate Memories". When you True Reincarnate a character, all tomes lost will be stored in this new super-uber-duper powerful tome and will be placed in your Reincarnation bank!


This notice brought to you by the "Mommy please cut the crusts from my bread consortium"

[Ciaran]

Well... you could consider the lesser and greater as if waking up from a coma and retraining. You are still in the same "body" after all. But due to how touchy a subject that could be, I hope you understand why I don't plan perusing that topic further.

No you aren't. While as an LR you can't change races, you can change your physical characteristics (to the limit that DDO allows). Ergo, different body.

Arguing against keeping tomes based on subjective definitions of what reincarnation is, however, is rather silly; the determination should come from a game mechanics perspective, not an in-game perspective. As somebody else said, make the in-game support the mechanics perspective, not the other way around.

As for the OP - /signed. I think having them apply at levels 3,7, etc is a fair trade-off.

[Xezno]

I just TRed my old EU main on Galahanda loosing several +3 tomes. I will not feel cheated if they suddenly made tomes that are BTC not disappear. The reason is simple - yes i might have lost the tomes i used, but now atleast i can actually use tomes. The way i plan to play is to stay at the cap for a while in between TRs - so watching any tomes i get rot in the bank will be really painful.

This should be really easy to code. I bet they have a short line of code that makes the tome disappear once used - just remove this code. Also i think it would not take a lot of effort to make the tome bind to character once used if its not allready.

We should really try to petition for the easiest possible solution as this gives us the greatest chance that Turbine will make the change. It might not be retroactive, but im sure that after the initial "storm" of people feeling cheated because they didnt get to keep their tomes, the player base will be a lot happier about the mechanics of TRing. I for one will not feel cheated.

1. Make tomes bind to character when used, if they arent allready.
2. Make it so that tomes are not consumed when used.