Petition to keep the bonus from manual with true reincarnation

[dkyle]

So.. what was a lvl 16 raid (now a 17) and you are saying it might pose an issue for lvl 12s....

How about the phrase... DUH.

At least one person, the person I originally replied to, said level 12s used to do it: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...43#post3469143

As such, I gave a reason why a level 12 two years ago might have been able to do it then, but might not be able to now.

[COLOR="Plum"]
As I recall they still needed to be transmutting of pg - transmutting did metal and weapon type dr not alignment... the real power transmutting had over metalline was the fact a transmutting slasher overcame bludgeoning dr, piercing dr etc... so you did not need different weapons for skeles etc...

I wasn't around back then, so I can't say from personal memory, but this thread only makes sense if transmuting was once all you needed to break Harry's DR.

From what I can tell, Transmuting originally broke all DR except DR/-, then was nerfed to be metals-only, then was renamed to Metaline.


The point I'm trying to make, is that the bar has been raised, to some degree, on what's acceptable in a Shroud group. At one time, a +3 Transmuting Longsword of Maiming and 250 HP may have been enough. Now, we expect MetPG at least, and melee need more HP to withstand the beefed up meteor swarms.

I never saw a lvl 11 or 12 in the raid that couldnt handle it. They came prepared, which is alot more than I can say for some of the players today.

I'm not denying that level 11s and 12s did it back then, in that version of DDO, in that version of the raid. I'm talking about ways in which those characters might have more trouble with the current raid, in the current game. "Coming prepared" used to be a lot easier, when all you needed was a Transmuter. Having enough HP was easier when meteor swarm was weaker.

to top it off, theres not a huge list of changes that have happened to the quest. In general, the quest is ALOT easier now than it was back at the 16 cap. Simply b/c divines have mass heal, arcanes have more potent debuffs, and the melees generally do more DPS b/c of prestige classes.

I'm sure it's easier to complete Shroud today with a party of level 17-20s, than with level 13-16s 2 years ago. I'm not saying otherwise. All I'm saying is that there are reasons why a character that was Shroud-ready two years ago, might not be today, because the difficulty of the quest has increased in certain ways.

falling back on meteor swarm changing is a joke argument. The original shroud had something far more deadly than a meteor swarm being cast. I called them lagballs. You know what a lagball is? Its where you go from full to zero on a high HP character in less than a second, you check the combat log and see that Harry didnt just cast 1 delay blast fireball. He casted 5 in one animation.

There's a difference between an occasional bug, like this, or the mostly gone "DPS lag", and an actual game mechanic. A bug is not difficulty. It's a random occurrence you have no control over, that in some cases, can kill you no matter your build or skill.

You could run a Shroud, and never be hit with that bug, whereas you will need to bypass Harry's DR, and you will get hit by meteor swarms.

[BlackSteel]

The point I'm trying to make, is that the bar has been raised, to some degree, on what's acceptable in a Shroud group. At one time, a +3 Transmuting Longsword of Maiming and 250 HP may have been enough. Now, we expect MetPG at least, and melee need more HP to withstand the beefed up meteor swarms.

its a two + year old raid, theres nothing hard about it, especially now. The ONLY reason most old timers wait to do shroud now on TR's or old characters is for the exp. Putting together a 12-16 shroud group would take ages, and would also give exp in a level range where its far too easy to level up anyway. If the under quest level bonus was still implemented, you'd probably see more of these pop up (but would still need more leveling options 17+)

I came back to the game shortly after the mod 6 release (having skipped all of mod 5). The first time I ran shroud was with a +2 holy silver greataxe that was gifted to me. (and i kept testing this against the sos trying to decide which to use) Beating DR is good, and its not that hard to do. You might not get your weapon of choice, or might have to settle for a lower enhancement bonus. But hard? certainly not. You can check the AH anytime of day and find a holy silver weapon on there. Might be a dagger, and not a khopesh, but there will b something.

his meteor swarms are laughable. The HP guidelines for the quest are the same now as they were back then. Having 4-8 more levels to tally up your health bar certainly helps. Noone NEEDS a 900 HP barb to run shroud.

[Missing_Minds]

At least one person, the person I originally replied to, said level 12s used to do it: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...43#post3469143

As such, I gave a reason why a level 12 two years ago might have been able to do it then, but might not be able to now.

one or two 12s amoung a 16s, they aren't going to have too much of an issue. a party of 12s... yeah, they'll hve issues.

[Ziindarax]

Here's an idea that could resolve this conundrum once and for all:

Make Tomes reusable. A Tome is a book, and I can never understand why anyone in their right mind would want to eat a book. When you use a tome, it drains a charge, and goes away to be re-used when your TR, and disappears for good after you use the last charge on that book.

Does this seem fair and/or sensible?

[AylinIsAwesome]

Here's an idea that could resolve this conundrum once and for all:

Make Tomes reusable. A Tome is a book, and I can never understand why anyone in their right mind would want to eat a book. When you use a tome, it drains a charge, and goes away to be re-used when your TR, and disappears for good after you use the last charge on that book.

Does this seem fair and/or sensible?

It doesn't really solve the problem of people who have already gotten Completionist and eaten their tomes, nor does it solve the problem of people who ate their tomes before TRing came out.

[BlackSteel]

You could run a Shroud, and never be hit with that bug, whereas you will need to bypass Harry's DR, and you will get hit by meteor swarms.

most people that would die to a meteor swarm would also die from failing a reflex save on DBF. I'm not to certain you're making a strong argument with the whole "meteor swarm has been beefed up so the quest is a ton harder now"

[AylinIsAwesome]

most people that would die to a meteor swarm would also die from failing a reflex save on DBF. I'm not to certain you're making a strong argument with the whole "meteor swarm has been beefed up so the quest is a ton harder now"

I think he's trying to say that it's slightly harder now, which is still enough so say it was "harder".

I think.

[dkyle]

most people that would die to a meteor swarm would also die from failing a reflex save on DBF. I'm not to certain you're making a strong argument with the whole "meteor swarm has been beefed up so the quest is a ton harder now"

Improved Evasion characters might be hit more by meteor swarms than a failed DBF save. And, damage adds up. Just because one source of damage is not more than another doesn't negate its effect. An extra/increased source of damage means more incoming damage between each heal. If characters are taking more damage than they used to, they need more HP to stay up between heals.

And I"m not saying it's a "ton" harder. All I'm saying, is that the quest has changed in some ways, and those ways make it harder. The person I originally responded to said "It is certainly not harder now." I disagreed.

[Chelsa]

The real power of True Reincarnation are the past life feats. But, trying to explain that to people who haven't ever TR'd, more or less TR'd multiple times on a character, is like trying to explain the color blue to a blind person.

Getting riled up over the +1 you get from a +4 tome is a waist of time, Instead get to work and start grinding because at some point in the future, and it has happened with all tomes, +3 and +4 tomes will be easier to get.

[khangharu]

Here's an idea that could resolve this conundrum once and for all:

Make Tomes reusable. A Tome is a book, and I can never understand why anyone in their right mind would want to eat a book. When you use a tome, it drains a charge, and goes away to be re-used when your TR, and disappears for good after you use the last charge on that book.

Does this seem fair and/or sensible?

i'd disagree, this would make it so that you could just pass the same tome through your whole guild and nobody would end up having to buy it themself. This would make them worth much less and no challenge. I agree with the idea that your inherant should be turned back into a tome and placed in your cache when you TR, grinding a new +4 every life just makes people either A) not want to TR or B) not use tomes

[Targoth1]

/signed

i don't want to loose anymore the bonus from manual....a lot of my friend don't want to true reincarnate because lose all the bonus from manual.
this malus hurts us but hurts also turbine because a lot of people don't reincarnate and don't spend turbine point for true reincarnate

You want to increase the inherent potential of your character there is a price.

If that price is more than your willing to pay, so be it.

[BlackSteel]

And I"m not saying it's a "ton" harder. All I'm saying, is that the quest has changed in some ways, and those ways make it harder. The person I originally responded to said "It is certainly not harder now." I disagreed.

except for all the ways which the quest is easier now compared to the one change that makes it harder.

I bet I can pick 12 people off khyber (and I'm sure others on other servers that could boast the same) that could easily pull off an all lvl 12 shroud. With the right setup, it might possibly be a 1 rounder too.

What would u say has the higher threshhold:

1) being a random melee in p4/5 shroud
2) main tank in VoD

cause I remember a certain lvl 11 on khyber/riedra that was main tanking in vod at the same as running shroud.

Just to clear any misconceptions, the 11/12s in shroud back in the day, were normally 1 per run when they did happen. And these were typically made up of the top notch players anyway, if not guild groups.

[Ziindarax]

i'd disagree, this would make it so that you could just pass the same tome through your whole guild and nobody would end up having to buy it themself. This would make them worth much less and no challenge. I agree with the idea that your inherant should be turned back into a tome and placed in your cache when you TR, grinding a new +4 every life just makes people either A) not want to TR or B) not use tomes

Re-usable tomes could be bound to character, maybe?

[dkyle]

except for all the ways which the quest is easier now compared to the one change that makes it harder.

It's easier to complete because characters are higher level, and more people have MinIIs and other high powered gear. That doesn't decrease the difficulty of the raid. The Raid itself is still more difficult, we're just better able to handle it.

Doing a Tempest Spine at level 1 a moth ago would be extremely difficult, at level 20 today extremely easy. That doesn't mean Tempest Spine has become an easier quest over the course of that month. Your character has simply gotten better.

I bet I can pick 12 people off khyber (and I'm sure others on other servers that could boast the same) that could easily pull off an all lvl 12 shroud. With the right setup, it might possibly be a 1 rounder too.

I would doubt a 1 rounder, but completion? Sure. But this is tangential to the point I'm trying to make: Shroud today is a more difficult (perhaps only by a little) quest now than it was two years ago. New players are going into a quest that lays heavier expectations on them than the quest the older players did when they were new to Shroud.

[BlackSteel]

It's easier to complete because characters are higher level, and more people have MinIIs and other high powered gear. That doesn't decrease the difficulty of the raid. The Raid itself is still more difficult, we're just better able to handle it.

gear aside.

1) we now have multiple build options that drastically increase DPS. PrE's and both half orcs and half elves (my recent halforc barb life was doing about 25 points more a swing at lvl 12 than my first life WF barb its plain silly)

2) radiant servant for clerics, huge SP pool for FvS's and mass heal for both. I cant remember the last time I saw all the healers running in the pools while everyone is fighting Harry. Back in Mod 6, thats just how it was.

3) fatigue/exhaustion. you couldnt always slow him down. The quest is already a joke, seeing him debuffed actually makes me want to berate the casters on normal. Like he's not being streamrolled and the healers arent already half asleep already.

4) as emili has pointed out, back when the servers were a barren wasteland. The people playing knew their ****, everyone knew everyone who played in the same time zone, so if you sucked you just didnt get parties. (hehe I remember one fella with a bad rep who would spend 8+ hours trying to fill a shroud group, could you imagine spending all day sitting in the LFM trying to fill SHROUD?)

5) jezus christ its the shroud. the only reason anyone actually screens for it now, is b/c most puggles in the current game cant tell the difference between the hilt and the pointy end of their stick.

[dkyle]

This'll be my last post on this:

I am not saying Shroud is more difficult to complete, for today's characters, in today's game, than it was for characters two years ago, in that version of the game. What I'm saying is that the raid has had its level of challenge increased. This is independent of how powerful characters are today.

A 10 second 100m sprint is exactly as challenging a task as it was 100 years ago. A runner from that era, using that era's equipment, would find the sprint exactly the same now as it was then. A runner from the modern era, using modern equipment, will find it easier, because we've gotten better at overcoming the challenges of that task.

A party that did shroud 2 years ago, then was put in stasis until today, and then did it again, would find the Raid more challenging today. The challenges to overcome in the Raid have increased.

It's like if you added a hurdle in the middle of a 100m sprint. 100 years ago, the record for a normal 100m sprint was about 10.5 seconds. Usain Bolt has run it in about 9.5 seconds. I suspect a hurdle wouldn't add more than a second to Usain's time. Suppose he does it in 10 seconds. Does this mean a 100m sprint with a hurdle is easier than a 100m sprint without one? No, it means Usain is better at it than the runners 100 years ago were at the normal 100m sprint. The difficulty of the task is obviously higher with the hurdle.

A current exception would be the Exhaustion/Tendon Slice bugs. They do make it an easier raid, but those are bugs. On the other hand, the Devs have intentionally made Shroud a more difficult raid than it was, in the ways I've described.

[Phidius]

You want to increase the inherent potential of your character there is a price.

If that price is more than your willing to pay, so be it.

See, here's the thing. Right after Turbine opened up the F2P model, they required F2P players to acquire "leveling sigils" before they could level... i.e., increase the inherent potential of their character.

Later, they removed that requirement - presumably, because they realized that the cost of leveling was unreasonable.

In a similar way, giving up tomes you have consumed is an unreasonable cost for TRing. That's why when I TR'ed Gemstone a 2nd time, I revised his build to only need +2 tomes, and will leave the +3's in his bank.

How much grinding would you do for gear that you will never use for fear of losing it? How much does Turbine rely on grind to retain paying customers?

[AylinIsAwesome]

i'd disagree, this would make it so that you could just pass the same tome through your whole guild and nobody would end up having to buy it themself. This would make them worth much less and no challenge. I agree with the idea that your inherant should be turned back into a tome and placed in your cache when you TR, grinding a new +4 every life just makes people either A) not want to TR or B) not use tomes

The tomes people care about (+3/+4) are, in almost every case I can think of, bound to Character.

See, here's the thing. Right after Turbine opened up the F2P model, they required F2P players to acquire "leveling sigils" before they could level... i.e., increase the inherent potential of their character.

Later, they removed that requirement - presumably, because they realized that the cost of leveling was unreasonable.

In a similar way, giving up tomes you have consumed is an unreasonable cost for TRing. That's why when I TR'ed Gemstone a 2nd time, I revised his build to only need +2 tomes, and will leave the +3's in his bank.

How much grinding would you do for gear that you will never use for fear of losing it? How much does Turbine rely on grind to retain paying customers?

I pretty much agree with this.

[BlackSteel]

The tomes people care about (+3/+4) are, in almost every case I can think of, bound to Character.

well it is possible to get BtA +3's out of epic DQ. And you can get unbound 3s or 4s from the jester, as exhibited by the auction going on right now on the main page.

[kernal42]

It doesn't really solve the problem of people who have already gotten Completionist and eaten their tomes, nor does it solve the problem of people who ate their tomes before TRing came out.

No, but that doesn't matter.

Fixing a broken mechanic is rarely retroactive.

-Kernal