Petition to keep the bonus from manual with true reincarnation

[eonfreon]

Fine. DM said no. End of story. If you want to convince the DM other wise, come up with something more solid than "I want!".

You want it from a coder point of view? Answer: we have no clue. We do not have any direct knowledge of how they have character data setup and stored in the database/s they use. Any one could go "Well it should be easy as it is just as database", and all that shows is how ignorant they are of actual system setups vs. an ideal world.

It is just another form of an "easy" button.

Now, even if we were allowed to keep the stats (it would be nice), it does ZERO, nada, nothing, for me in regards for the desire to peruse a TR. I have no interest in such. In fact doing so would probably actually decrease the amount of money Turbine would pull in. Why? The # of people willing to buy tomes vs. willing to buy a TR. After all, a person who TRs may be willing to pick up a +1 or +2, but if TRs kept their tomes, there goes that chance of money.

Thank you. This I finally agree with. For the record, I never said I want. But yes, it would make a difference to me, maybe. Personally, I don't TR because I just don't feel like it, tomes notwithstanding.

I've consistently maintained in every thread on this subject most of the very things you've said. That it is up to the DM. There are as many lore reasons why it should be allowed as there are reasons why it shouldn't. It depends on what the DM, in this case Turbine, wants and why.

Surely you've read books where someone wields a soul-draining sword and becomes stronger, faster, healthier, and more knowledgable.

So let's be honest. The real reason it is not allowed is because of the income it generates and the continuation of the grind. After all, you can use TP to purchase the +1 and +2 Tomes you need, but you need to loot a +3 Tome, therefore it creates an objective.

Yes, it could be coding issues. But there are ways around it. Simpliest would be that whatever stat has an "inherent" bonus (which as far as I know can only be acquired through a Tome) would be read and an equivalent BTC Tome would be generated at the point you TR, and stored in a bank.

You think it's an "easy button". Well, yeah. It's an "I don't have to do that grind yet again" button.

That's all fine. And perhaps that's the way it should be, from Turbine's monetary and game grind/playing perspective.

I just tired of folks telling me what the "soul" and "reincarnation" is. Because any metaphysical mumbo jumbo you can come up with I can counter. And while you can only guess about the soul, I however know, thanks to my being in touch with the Universe.

I can tell you that it will not likely be changed. Because, unless it would represent a loss in revenue for Turbine, they have no reason to change what is generally a lucrative monetary avenue for them; the purchase of Tomes.
And everyone who TRed already and subsequently lost their tomes would be hard-pressed to "prove" it should the rules change, creating quite a stir. "Why can the newbs keep their tomes when they TR and yet I couldn't" would flood the forums.

[Impaqt]

you say this...but we keep object....why????because before reincarning you go in bank and open a special agreement for the future body????
i don't think so

We keep objects because you can pass objects along to other people. While you can Teach people stuff, its a lot harder that handing them a sword.

No. there is no need to carry over Tomes on a True Reincarnation. If you know you are going to, SAVE your tomes. If you didnt know, Regrind them. You got em once, you can get em again.

[Allistair]

So let's be honest. The real reason it is not allowed is because of the income it generates and the continuation of the grind. After all, you can use TP to purchase the +1 and +2 Tomes you need, but you need to loot a +3 Tome, therefore it creates an objective.

Please explain to me the difference between a dream splitter from the reaver and a +3 tome?
If I happen to have gotten both, why am I able to keep one of my "drops" but not the other?
It doesn't make sense.

[bobbryan2]

We keep objects because you can pass objects along to other people. While you can Teach people stuff, its a lot harder that handing them a sword.

No. there is no need to carry over Tomes on a True Reincarnation. If you know you are going to, SAVE your tomes. If you didnt know, Regrind them. You got em once, you can get em again.

People made the same argument about rerolling and raid loot.

The arguments never really change.. just the circumstances.

[AylinIsAwesome]

If you are a player that is hesitant to TR because you will lose a few tomes, then it's probably not worth it for you to TR anyway. I know with my wiz I TR'd him knowing that even if I didn't have another +3 int tome waiting I wasn't losing anything by TRing due to gaining the +1 dc from the PL feat. My Monk gained an average of 3 damage/hit on the first TR and I knew I couldn't pass that up, but then there's my "main" toon who is an ac twf ranger build and I just can't see losing all the tomes, because none of the benefits will gain me enough to make up for the loss of those stat points. It's quite toon dependent and some players wouldn't be up for the xp grind even if we did keep tomes. Aside from the wings by your name, there's no way for someone to tell whether you've TR'd just by performance in a quest. A 28pt build can succeed in all endgame content just as well as a 36pt build. It is not a requirement to TR your toons and if your guildies can't see the benefits in completing a TR, then that's fine.

In short: /not signed

So...do you have an argument other than "don't TR"?

Just saying "it's not for you" isn't a real argument. Please, try again.

The soul isn't a physical thing so why should a STR, DEX, or CON tome be kept? The soul doesn't remember ALL of the past life so why should an INT tome be kept? The soul doesn't contain your wisdom so why should a WIS tome be kept? The soul can't be seen or felt or influence anyone so why should a CHA tome be kept?

Ok, show me how the "soul" is able to carry all of your personal belongings and place them in a Kundarak bank for your new body to use.

Fine. DM said no. End of story. If you want to convince the DM other wise, come up with something more solid than "I want!".

No, "I want" is a perfectly valid reason.

Here's why.

If this is implemented, then players don't need to worry about eating tomes and TRing. Players that would otherwise not TR would then TR which earns Turbine money.

In addition, a happier player base is more likely to stick around longer possibly giving Turbine $15 for each month that they're here.

Honestly, Turbine is shooting themselves in the foot for not letting tomes apply to TRs. Putting the highest one in the TR bank would be a perfect way to do it.

[eonfreon]

We keep objects because you can pass objects along to other people. While you can Teach people stuff, its a lot harder that handing them a sword.

In a world of magic? Where Mindflayers can change feats for you for the right price? Where Druids can Lesser and Greater Reincarnate you to completely change your stats and change levels and classes around?

But then again magic and the Gods (Turbine) is a fickle and strange thing.

No. there is no need to carry over Tomes on a True Reincarnation. If you know you are going to, SAVE your tomes. If you didnt know, Regrind them. You got em once, you can get em again.

Very true.

Basically it boils down to this:
Turbine figured out a way to extend the game in an incredible simple way. In exchange for a 34 point build and a 36 point build, free passive Past Life Feats, access to further Past Life Feats (some worth it, some not), and keeping most of your loot, you lose your Tomes and require more xp to re-level.

Simple as that. If you desire you can purchase +1 and +2 Tomes with TP and recoup much of your loss for simple TP's. Anything further you just have to grind again.

As much as I would love to see Tomes carry over, and yes it would likely cause me to actually TR a couple of characters, I'm just happy that there is at least this option to continue the game.
Most of the new folks don't know how much it sucked when you played the game and got enough favor to create a 32 point build and had to reroll and lose everything that was bound.

I remember the arguments for allowing some sort of reincarnation to upgrade your old 28 pointer. And the cries of "easy button" back then too. You want to create a 32 point character and keep all your Raid Gear? The horror and insanity, cried then most of the very ones who cry "easy button" today.

Truth of the matter is, if Turbine can figure out a way to truly profit and not unbalance the game, they will. Cries of "easy button" notwithstanding.

[steloro]

they have no reason to change what is generally a lucrative monetary avenue for them; the purchase of Tomes.
And everyone who TRed already and subsequently lost their tomes would be hard-pressed to "prove" it should the rules change, creating quite a stir. "Why can the newbs keep their tomes when they TR and yet I couldn't" would flood the forums.

people buy +2 tome from store for tr???
it is easyer to acquire +2 tome in some key characateristic or a true heart of wood with 20 epic dungeon token???
for me it is very simply to buy some tome +2 in auction....no big problem
the great problem is +3 and +4 tome....we tr to make chacacter strong or to followthe change that turbine make 8(LIKE HALF ORC)
why i must loose the +3 and +4 tome if i want to reincarnate in something that turbine create for us???
i think turbine change a lot of thing in one year of game....tr is an instrumental for chenge your character with the change of game....and in this process i don't want to loose tome that i work hard to obtain...
this is my thought

[Cyr]

/signed

A loss of tomes upon TR'ing is merely an extension of the false assumption that grind = challenge that permatates the TR system. The tome loss creates a barrier to TR'ing making it not feasible for those who are both not power gamers and the super casual on their main toons (the ones they actually want to play).

If the TR system was all about challenge and not grinding the game would have much better retention numbers as this end game alternative would be much more enjoyable.

[sephiroth1084]

While I initially felt that losing tomes when TRing was okay, as you'd need something to go after at end game, as many characters who TR already have all of their raid loot, but the following scenarios have caused me to reconsider that stance.

Scenario 1:

You TR as every class, get completionist, and eat all your +3 and +4 tomes. Happy day.

Druid comes out.

Suddenly, you lose your completionist. You can't get it again without losing your tomes, and if you keep your tomes, then no completionist.


How is that fun?


EDIT:

Scenario 2:

Before TRing comes out, you spend a large amount of time gathering +3 and +4 tomes in every stat to use on your character. You eat them, because there's no reason not to.

TRing comes out.

You go for even a first life, you lose all that work.

How is that fun either?


Tomes should still apply over TRs. There's no reason not to.

Something needs to be put in place to, at the very least prevent scenario 1.

[eonfreon]

Please explain to me the difference between a dream splitter from the reaver and a +3 tome?
If I happen to have gotten both, why am I able to keep one of my "drops" but not the other?
It doesn't make sense.

Hey, I'm on your side. But "logic" and "sense" isn't paramount here. In lore any reason/excuse can be generated.

So, just to play devil's advocate:
You can actually keep your +3 Tome and your Dream Spitter. You just can't "use up" your Tome. If you haven't used it, the Tome is a physical thing just like the dream spitter and can be "stored".

Once you eat it the laws of magic that govern our existence in the realm of Eberron apply it to that physical body.
When you do a True Reincarnation and call upon the Gods (Turbine) to make you stronger (Extra build points and stacking Pasive Past Life Feats) the Gods purge you of the magic of your Tomes.

Why do they do this? Many Sages argue this point. Some religions say that the Tomes are of an Arcane type of magic that offends the Gods. Others maintain that the Gods are testing us and should we prove worthy one day they shall create a new Tome for you (it'll finally pop up in a chest or you'll get lucky and turn in something during a festival, whatever the Gods deem appropriate).

Others, and truly the majority, think that the Gods are insane, jealous and capricious beings, with sadistic intentions .

Personally, I just think they're just making it all up as they go along .

[Missing_Minds]

No, "I want" is a perfectly valid reason.

Here's why.

If this is implemented, then players don't need to worry about eating tomes and TRing. Players that would otherwise not TR would then TR which earns Turbine money.

In addition, a happier player base is more likely to stick around longer possibly giving Turbine $15 for each month that they're here.

Honestly, Turbine is shooting themselves in the foot for not letting tomes apply to TRs. Putting the highest one in the TR bank would be a perfect way to do it.

*snicker* Saying "GIMIEE! I want!" right now is just ironic with all the children in stores screaming the exact same thing.

As for the counter point to your point of view, scroll up. I've already posted on that.

FACT: we don't know, we can only speculate. Turbine is the only one with data that could give a better statistic on which would earn them more money.

[eonfreon]

people buy +2 tome from store for tr???
it is easyer to acquire +2 tome in some key characateristic or a true heart of wood with 20 epic dungeon token???
for me it is very simply to buy some tome +2 in auction....no big problem
the great problem is +3 and +4 tome....we tr to make chacacter strong or to followthe change that turbine make 8(LIKE HALF ORC)
why i must loose the +3 and +4 tome if i want to reincarnate in something that turbine create for us???
i think turbine change a lot of thing in one year of game....tr is an instrumental for chenge your character with the change of game....and in this process i don't want to loose tome that i work hard to obtain...
this is my thought

And I consider this the best argument for keeping the Tomes. We already put in the time and "effort" to get our Tomes, why do we got to do it again?

We need to convince Turbine that they would have much happier customers, if we were allowed to keep our Tomes.

And it's a very good point about the ease of acquiring +1 and +2 Tomes through plat and thus circumventing the need to spend real money and TP to acquire store bought ones.

In the end, what we may one day see is Turbine charging us Plat and/or TP to acquire some special item that applies past tomes onto new TR's.

Actually, the best way I could think of to do this would be in some new Raid. Some mystical item that "absorbed" the Tome's Inherent bonus and allowed you to reuse it.

Now that would be an item all would strive for.

[AylinIsAwesome]

*snicker* Saying "GIMIEE! I want!" right now is just ironic with all the children in stores screaming the exact same thing.

Insinuating that your opponents are just screaming "GIMIEE!" is a pretty childish tactic.

If you'll note, there are actual arguments put forth for this, which children who want a toy do not have. Your analogy is invalid and dishonest.

As for the counter point to your point of view, scroll up. I've already posted on that.

FACT: we don't know, we can only speculate. Turbine is the only one with data that could give a better statistic on which would earn them more money.

How would keeping tomes over TRing lose them money? If you're simply talking about the percentage of the population that buys +2 tomes from the store, then only +3 and higher tomes could be carried over.

They could put an item in the store that removes tomes from your character and lets you put them in the bank.

FACT: People who could TR right now are not doing so because they would lose their tomes. Turbine could get their money if those players would not lose their tomes.

[Macroscian]

Give tomes back to any finished completionist if/when a new character class pops out.

Don't eat what you know to be a one way street.

Eat a street?

[Missing_Minds]

Insinuating that your opponents are just screaming "GIMIEE!" is a pretty childish tactic.

If you'll note, there are actual arguments put forth for this, which children who want a toy do not have. Your analogy is invalid and dishonest.

*sigh* Reading between the lines and seeing what you want to see there vs. just a person who found amusement in the form in which you placed your response.

FACT: I found your statement amusing and ironc given the season.
FACT: I said nothing else concerning it.

FACT: People who could TR right now are not doing so because they would lose their tomes. Turbine could get their money if those players would not lose their tomes.

That is opinion not fact.
I have several 20s and I have no intention to TR . If you read through what I've posted you would have seen this already. I do not want to TR due to the fact of having to re level, NOT because of loss of tomes. If you want to append your sentence with "There are...." because that implies "not all" I'll agree with you. Your current statement is all encompassing, anyone with a lvl 20.

The loss of tomes just doesn't bother to the point of irritation like others because of my point of view on how they interact with the body. I'd accept such with a *sigh* and move on.

[AylinIsAwesome]

That is opinion not fact.

No, there are players who have stated on these forums that they will not TR because of the lose of tomes. It's not my "opinion" that they said it; it's a fact.

Here's one example.

[Missing_Minds]

No, there are players who have stated on these forums that they will not TR because of the lose of tomes. It's not my "opinion" that they said it; it's a fact.

*sigh* failure to read.

[bobbryan2]

*sigh* failure to read.

Not really...

[kernal42]

*snicker* Saying "GIMIEE! I want!" right now is just ironic with all the children in stores screaming the exact same thing.

As for the counter point to your point of view, scroll up. I've already posted on that.

FACT: we don't know, we can only speculate. Turbine is the only one with data that could give a better statistic on which would earn them more money.

You've posted three "arguments" against the suggestion:

1: DM said so.
2: We don't know if Turbine would profit from it.
3: Saying "GIMIEE! I want" is childish.

None of these arguments are relevant.

1: Yes, DM said so. This is true, but only a reasonable argument regarding *why it is not*. It has no bearing on *why it should not be*.
2: This is also true. This has no effect on whether or not it would improve gameplay, which player-based discussions should probably focus on.
3: This, ironically, is childish.

Cheers,
Kernal

[eonfreon]

*sigh* failure to read.

*Sigh* You have a desire to get into a semantics battle for some reason.

(There are) was well understood. You simply seem to desire to nitpick Aylin.

It is quite obvious that not all level 20's want to TR, tomes notwithstanding. Heck people that no longer play the game and have capped characters also don't TR.