Petition to keep the bonus from manual with true reincarnation

[bobbryan2]

Buying your instant gratification is not a solution.

And still does not replace the downside to TR.

A TR is instant gratification. LoL.

[dkyle]

When dealing with Tome use, yep. After you ate the +2 Tome and was Reincarnated as your example Badger, you didn't get to keep the stat.

The closest analog we have in the 3.5 ruleset to TR is the Druid's Reincarnation spell. That spell allows tomes to carry over, as the character's stats are only modified according to the differences in racial physical stat adjustments between the original race, and the new race.

Why a downside? Balance would be first thing to come to mind. People here want the bonus to stats from a TR and keep the Tomes they ate. Yea, that won't harm the game in any way.

Seems to me an ESoS is far more powerful than a +4 STR tome, to a Barbarian. Keeping tomes is no more a balance issue than keeping BtC Raid loot.

[Bloodhaven]

Scenario 1:

You TR as every class, get completionist, and eat all your +3 and +4 tomes. Happy day.

Druid comes out.

Suddenly, you lose your completionist. You can't get it again without losing your tomes, and if you keep your tomes, then no completionist.


How is that fun?


EDIT:

Scenario 2:

Before TRing comes out, you spend a large amount of time gathering +3 and +4 tomes in every stat to use on your character. You eat them, because there's no reason not to.

TRing comes out.

You go for even a first life, you lose all that work.

How is that fun either?


Tomes should still apply over TRs. There's no reason not to.

This is th reason i do not TR my main Meele toon. He has all of the +3 tomes and i will not gain anything from having +2-4 stat points from TR if i lose my +3 tomes. I would gladly pay for another 3-4 true hearts of wood if my tomes did not go poof.

[Aeolwind]

Seems to me an ESoS is far more powerful than a +4 STR tome, to a Barbarian. Keeping tomes is no more a balance issue than keeping BtC Raid loot.

More so than the ESOS, Greensteel at around 12. 3 or 4 GS items and 2 weapons...even on the 1st round TR's I've grouped with at that level the quest is instantly a cake walk collect, your loot & reward.

At least the ESOS doesn't kick in until 20.

Besides, the tomes don't kick in until the appropriate levels anyway, so you'd get your +1 at 3, +2 at 7 and so on. I suppose the game design is setup to ensure that you currently have 2 sets for completionist, one for now & one for when they release druid. Still though, that is one asinine grind.

[TipsyDrow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome
Calm down.

I never said I was upset, and I'm not upset. However, to try to turn this into a political issue is just a waste of time, because it won't get anything done other than start a flame war.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are awesome?

Yes, I tell her she's awesome every day at least once, oft times twice. Sometimes I sit and gaze upon her awesomeness in reverance, then she makes me go solo Sins of Attrition with her battle cry of YU CAN DOEEEEEET!!!!
Sorry Aylin I couldn't help myself *winks*
Seriously, Aylin has taught me more about playing this game then anyone else I have encountered AND she puts up with my nonsense.

Love the idea of keeping tomes through a TR. I'm a noob and have a bank full of +2's I wont eat because I plan to TR. I'd love to coat them in chocolate sauce and NOMNOMNOMNOM!!!!

[Brannigan]

Getting a + 4 tome or + 3 is quite a hard feat in the first place (with an element of luck) - however to get the pleasure from using it is generally denied because the majority of people that I talk to just bank them as they do not know what changes will be made therefore the reward is lessened and just sit in the bank gathering dust.

Having the tomes protected through a TR process would be a good move for this reason alone.

Is this just a player suggestion at present or has anyone from turbine somewhere actually said this might be considered or even looked at?

[Alexandryte]

A happy medium would be if you have any +inherent stats at the time of TRing you gain a tome from them (BtC) upon TRing in your cache.


Essentially it allows us to preserve our hard work as we try to improve our characters without causing some weird balance/coding issues down the road.

And if you want to be technical...you wrote your successor a tome(s) chronicling your adventures...afterall...the tomes had to be made by someone in the first place....why not you in your previous lives?

And to those who still think its an easy button ponder this: why should you be at the mercy of the random number generator at super small drop rates multiple times in a row for the same exact item you already possessed. If/when druids come out and if other classes are added, you lose again simply due to the fact that the MMO genre is constantly evolving and changing.

TL;DR: Players shouldn't be punished for their hard work and time.

[BlackSteel]

More so than the ESOS, Greensteel at around 12. 3 or 4 GS items and 2 weapons...even on the 1st round TR's I've grouped with at that level the quest is instantly a cake walk collect, your loot & reward.

At least the ESOS doesn't kick in until 20.

there are plenty of items in the game that are far far far more overpowered than greensteel. And most of them are available before 12.

ironically enough, some of us did actually farm shroud and craft at lvl 11 and 12 back in mod 6. It was nice to get the gear ASAP if you already had a bag of larges on another toon. Or god forbid you were one of the lvl 11's holding out for a 20th run to get a tome in order to qualify for particular feats (or maximize skill points)

[Xezno]

One more argument for changing is that people largely have stopped giving away tomes they do not need, thus making them more difficult to get, and more bickering over loot. If a +3 cha tome drops on a barb now people will keep it because i might TR into a paladin or sorc later, and they would do that even if they allready had a +3 tome in the bank.

[joneb1999]

ironically enough, some of us did actually farm shroud and craft at lvl 11 and 12 back in mod 6. It was nice to get the gear ASAP if you already had a bag of larges on another toon. Or god forbid you were one of the lvl 11's holding out for a 20th run to get a tome in order to qualify for particular feats (or maximize skill points)

With respect and no intention of offending you Im going to probably really anger you and a lot of vets like you and say in my opinion I think this is irrelevant completely to todays game and Shroud because I believe the Shrouds difficulty level has increased in relation to the increase in level limit and with other new and adapted mechanics that have evolved the game. Unless a member of Turbine such as a dev comes out and says the Shroud is exactly the same level of difficulty as it has been from the start to now and it isnt disputed by another Turbine member then I can not take such comments by yourself with any relevance.

The reason for writing this is that comments that are wrong or misinformed can shape a discussion wrongly and unfairly.

[eonfreon]

With respect and no intention of offending you Im going to probably really anger you and a lot of vets like you and say in my opinion I think this is irrelevant completely to todays game and Shroud because I believe the Shrouds difficulty level has increased in relation to the increase in level limit and with other new and adapted mechanics that have evolved the game. Unless a member of Turbine such as a dev comes out and says the Shroud is exactly the same level of difficulty as it has been from the start to now and it isnt disputed by another Turbine member then I can not take such comments by yourself with any relevance.

The reason for writing this is that comments that are wrong or misinformed can shape a discussion wrongly and unfairly.

And with all due respect, by what criteria do you gauge the Shroud's difficulty of now versus then? Did you play it "back then"? I've played the Shroud since it first came out. It is certainly not harder now.

A Raid group that has the same equipment and abilities we had then would have the same chance of failure as we did. Especially if the majority did not know what had to be done.

The fact is when he talks about level 12 and such doing it was because we had done it so many times that we knew exactly what to do and at that point everyone knew what equipment to have. It's not like we waltzed in when the Shroud came out with our level 12s and conquered it. Although some probably could.

You have to remember that Turbine was very slow to put out new content at that time. Veterans had time to farm for alot of equipment before new content finally came out. Other then rolling new alts that's all there was to do.

And it was a much smaller and thus tight-nit community. When someone went into the Shroud on their level 12 they went in with their friends and guildmates.

I just don't know how you can gauge the Shroud's difficulty of now versus then unless you played then. You may believe whatever you wish of course. But the players have more tools at their disposal then they did back then, namely Mass Heal and WoB to name a few

Besides Blacksteel didn't give any wrong or misinformed information. He simply stated the fact that level 12's did the Shroud. He made no comment on it's difficulty, now or then.

However, since you have no data to back up your statements, and actually since we've gone up in power and have more abilities and spells available (let's not forget the PREs too which increased every melee's dps), you are actually in danger of spreading wrong or misinformed information.

[dkyle]

And with all due respect, by what criteria do you gauge the Shroud's difficulty of now versus then? Did you play it "back then"? I've played the Shroud since it first came out. It is certainly not harder now.

A Raid group that has the same equipment and abilities we had then would have the same chance of failure as we did. Especially if the majority did not know what had to be done.

So a group with a bunch of non-good "transmuters" would fare then just as well as now, with those same weapons (having become "metaline" in the mean-time)? Point being, Harry-beaters used to be much easier to get.

Also, Mod9 changed how meteor swarm works, making Harry significantly nastier.

The raid has changed since it first came out, and it's difficulty has increased. Not necessarily saying toons of that era couldn't hack it now, but they would have a harder time with it.

[Missing_Minds]

So a group with a bunch of non-good "transmuters" would fare then just as well as now, with those same weapons (having become "metaline" in the mean-time)? Point being, Harry-beaters used to be much easier to get.

Also, Mod9 changed how meteor swarm works, making Harry significantly nastier.

The raid has changed since it first came out, and it's difficulty has increased. Not necessarily saying toons of that era couldn't hack it now, but they would have a harder time with it.

The raid has not. Weapons properties, weapon attack (TWF/2HF), and spells have. The only bit of the raid that changed is in part 2 where they can't get stuck any more.

The only thing more difficult about the raid now for 16s comapred to then is meteor swarm. It just means the healers have to be on the ball a bit more.

And with 2 years since release, there are a LOT of "harry beaters" out there. Starting at min lvl 6 that so MANY seem to forget.

[Emili]

More so than the ESOS, Greensteel at around 12. 3 or 4 GS items and 2 weapons...even on the 1st round TR's I've grouped with at that level the quest is instantly a cake walk collect, your loot & reward.

At least the ESOS doesn't kick in until 20.

Besides, the tomes don't kick in until the appropriate levels anyway, so you'd get your +1 at 3, +2 at 7 and so on. I suppose the game design is setup to ensure that you currently have 2 sets for completionist, one for now & one for when they release druid. Still though, that is one asinine grind.

I built GS items on level 12 rerolls at times before the cap increased to 20... I do not know if you know it but vale quests were full of level 12 alts at one time for near a year and a half.

there are plenty of items in the game that are far far far more overpowered than greensteel. And most of them are available before 12.

ironically enough, some of us did actually farm shroud and craft at lvl 11 and 12 back in mod 6. It was nice to get the gear ASAP if you already had a bag of larges on another toon. Or god forbid you were one of the lvl 11's holding out for a 20th run to get a tome in order to qualify for particular feats (or maximize skill points)

When level caps were 10, 12, 14 and 16 we farmed the bloody hell of the - at time - end game therefore most these characters were loaded up with raid gear of the times... the loot is saturated and siting in banks...

When I did TR my main ... My biggest surprise was it was not her min level 11 and 12 greensteel but her min lvl 8 GS which gained attention. Yes some of us have GS older than dirt.

[dkyle]

The raid has not. Weapons properties, weapon attack (TWF/2HF), and spells have. The only bit of the raid that changed is in part 2 where they can't get stuck any more.

There is no real difference between a raid changing, and the game mechanics changing. Either way, many characters doing shroud two years ago would have trouble with the raid today, in today's game.

The only thing more difficult about the raid now for 16s comapred to then is meteor swarm. It just means the healers have to be on the ball a bit more.

It means people need more HP. Which might pose an issue for many level 12s.

[Missing_Minds]

It means people need more HP. Which might pose an issue for many level 12s.

So.. what was a lvl 16 raid (now a 17) and you are saying it might pose an issue for lvl 12s....

How about the phrase... DUH.

[Emili]

So a group with a bunch of non-good "transmuters" would fare then just as well as now, with those same weapons (having become "metaline" in the mean-time)? Point being, Harry-beaters used to be much easier to get.

Also, Mod9 changed how meteor swarm works, making Harry significantly nastier.

The raid has changed since it first came out, and it's difficulty has increased. Not necessarily saying toons of that era couldn't hack it now, but they would have a harder time with it.

As I recall they still needed to be transmutting of pg - transmutting did metal and weapon type dr not alignment... the real power transmutting had over metalline was the fact a transmutting slasher overcame bludgeoning dr, piercing dr etc... so you did not need different weapons for skeles etc...

It means people need more HP. Which might pose an issue for many level 12s.

... and HP a lot easier to get these days than they were back at the time the raid was released (racial toughness for other races - beside dwarf/wf - were added after by my memories). Emili was just over 300hp maybe 340s? I know she had no GFL item fit a slot well... She walked into the shroud with a transmuting khopesh of PG and a holy silver khopesh - the later she paid 52k pp on the AH for. Two weeks later she was in the raid on elite until we finally got it done after third attempt - We wanted the favor.

This was attitude, strive and persistance back then which won our raids ... I saw the same approach time and again among the die-hard DDO fans i.e. ToD was still pretty new (but a couple weeks old) and Matt had a group running ... I joined and as we went in - he noticed some of us may he included had done hard - so he picked elite.

Khyber like Reidra before it was littered with the hard DDO gamer - pug or not - you knew each other and knew what you were getting... todays standards sometimes you're not quite sure you're picking a casual player or someone who's esperience stems but a month ago from krothos? Just bout a week ago was in an Abbot and the group - as filling - was teaching a cleric how to set up key mapping for straffing left and right (apprantly somewhere he changed his keystrokes and never knew people could run left/right from character perspective).

Team play: Is what won the early shrouds and all raids previous.

I know it well ... as I often put it - I rode the shoulders of giants - 't is true. 'Bout the time the Sub T was introduced FH was at a the level of team playing I could pit them against anything the DDO Devs tossed at us. I could anticipate near every single action each FH would take giving little speciffic instruction as to role. I took a hiatis to Eire for a few months and come back finding I had to rebuild as Chad left our heroes scatter to the wind... slowly rebuilt to sway my guild's power wax and wain like the moon as people come and leave ... with EU more so and the core of heores once strong is few and ride the crests of the pugs.

[patang01]

It would be 'logical' if lesser and greater reincarnation wasted your tomes as well. But they don't. Someone said that it's not like a true reincarnation because you don't change class (although you can multi class and if you're low class enough you could potentially change class entirely) and race, but you can redo all your stats - physically and mentally including all your skills. It is essentially a complete change including how you look except for your 'job'.

The argument against keeping your tomes feels like the one against greensteel deconstruct. Tough tittie. It's a 'easy' button in the sense it got easier. Except the person already put the time down to get it, lesser and greater permits it and the biggest surprise of all - bar meta physical discussions it's a 'game'.

Meaning it's pointless to argue how it's done considering unless we can do exactly what we do in the game in real life (like kill dragons, evaporate annoying bosses with implosions and be near death and heal ourselves without scar) the reverse - this not mimicing real life is pointless as well.

The only thing would be if it's game breaking, waste of time coding or if it serves the community less or better.

Here it would actually serve the community better. I've read that making BTC items in say raids BTA would 'break' some functionality where people would hord items instead of letting someone else roll on it. BTC means that you're more likely to share the item if it's only going to take up space in your inventory.

Allowing long time players who TR and keep their tomes will most likely make them share the tome with someone else since they already applied it.

Is it game breaking? No - if the same person TRing already have another +3 tome they just lost they will (perhaps) apply that one too and the net result will be the same.

I think what it boils down to is 'I got one and you have to go through the same sh!t I did in order to get one too'.

Note that there's a +4 Tome for sale that someone pulled and saved from last years festivult. It's not bound. Potentially causal Bob with Rich friends could buy it without putting any grind into it.

In other words - if you put down all that time and have +4 tomes saved and applied, how is it 'fair' that someone who might not have put down the time can get one and apply it?

It's all a mental game. Accomplishments and its worth is not based on if I happen to pull a +4 tome running irestone on elite (meaning getting a gold coin and get lucky) if it takes you 70 elite ToD runs to get the same.

Likewise letting a TR keep its tomes will not diminish your accomplishment because TRing is not a challenge for a fully geared TR even if they keep their tomes.

Grinding the same quest 7 times is punishment enough - tough tittie argument just sound spiteful to me.

That's my 2 cents anyways.

[Aeolwind]

I built GS items on level 12 rerolls at times before the cap increased to 20... I do not know if you know it but vale quests were full of level 12 alts at one time for near a year and a half.

Completely =). I'd played for a short time during when Shroud was released after I'd left EQ and saw what kind of grind it was and exited, chased by a bear...so to speak.

Couldn't handle another grindfest at the time, it's bad game design =(. Wish I'd endured back then, but hindsight 20/20.

[BlackSteel]

There is no real difference between a raid changing, and the game mechanics changing. Either way, many characters doing shroud two years ago would have trouble with the raid today, in today's game.



It means people need more HP. Which might pose an issue for many level 12s.

not true on both accounts.

I never saw a lvl 11 or 12 in the raid that couldnt handle it. They came prepared, which is alot more than I can say for some of the players today.

to top it off, theres not a huge list of changes that have happened to the quest. In general, the quest is ALOT easier now than it was back at the 16 cap. Simply b/c divines have mass heal, arcanes have more potent debuffs, and the melees generally do more DPS b/c of prestige classes.

falling back on meteor swarm changing is a joke argument. The original shroud had something far more deadly than a meteor swarm being cast. I called them lagballs. You know what a lagball is? Its where you go from full to zero on a high HP character in less than a second, you check the combat log and see that Harry didnt just cast 1 delay blast fireball. He casted 5 in one animation.

Maybe your standards of the shroud getting 'harder' takes credit if you're comparing to the brief time (by turbine standards) where Harry was broken and wouldnt attack in p4. Yes, I guess the raid is harder now, compared to a raid boss that would just stand there and take it from the rear.