Petition to keep the bonus from manual with true reincarnation

[Macroscian]

I've read through surprisingly much of this.


The main argument seems to be

As with everything else in DDO you should plan your character beforehand to get a nice result and some chat about making something already easy mode even easier.

And the counterargument is more along the lines of 'well it would be nice'.


I'm firmly on the Plan Ahead side. While cool to get an item back, I do feel it is rather like stats distribution. Should TR retain their stats through all lives, perhaps? With whatever modifications they ate along the way.

[manumase]

the tome loses its magic after being read, with no tome to use and being a totally different person it wouldnt make sense
edit: also stops people just using the tomes to build the character than relying on what they get

[eonfreon]

And the downside to all those BENEFITS to a TR is that you loose your Tomes.

What people really want here is to TR for the bonus +2 points AND keep Tomes without ANY downside.

You want your cake and eat it to. Sorry, but TS, not going to happen.

Not unless the 'gimme' crowd can come up with an equally painful downside to TR. Likelihood of that happening, as evidence in this thread, is zero.

Don't want to 'pay the price' of a TR then don't do it.

You are probably right that it won't happen. But you aren't really in position to make that absolute claim. Once people said that respecs would never happen, just suck it up and reroll.

I can certainly understand that there are costs associated with the benefits. But those costs are just rules. And rules can change.

[Noelemahc]

What is with all the "petitions" lately asking for stupid things? Keeping tomes after TR? You'll get more. Don't waste devs' time on things like this. Also, online petitions never work for anything. Ever. Especially something trivial like keeping tomes after a TR. That devalues petitions to begin with, so when a serious issue does come up people just look at petitions and go "lol another petition". I wish people would stop wanting to petition about everything. It's getting old.

[eonfreon]

the tome loses its magic after being read, with no tome to use and being a totally different person it wouldnt make sense
edit: also stops people just using the tomes to build the character than relying on what they get

It would make sense if the DM (Turbine) said it would. You know as little as I do about the "workings" of magic and the soul.

All it is currently is a way to keep people grinding for the same item that they got before at some point.

As far as the plan ahead scenario that someone else mentioned. Yes, I am now planning ahead. Any further Tomes will go into storage until I TR. Especially the Tomes that replace the ones I've already used.

It was a little hard to plan ahead for something that didn't exist. However had I started playing the game on April 2010 I would certainly have been able to plan ahead.

[bobbryan2]

And the downside to all those BENEFITS to a TR is that you loose your Tomes.

What people really want here is to TR for the bonus +2 points AND keep Tomes without ANY downside.

You want your cake and eat it to. Sorry, but TS, not going to happen.

Not unless the 'gimme' crowd can come up with an equally painful downside to TR. Likelihood of that happening, as evidence in this thread, is zero.

Don't want to 'pay the price' of a TR then don't do it.

I don't think the tome loss was an intended 'cost.' I think it was something they couldn't easily fix with coding, and then after enough thought they figured it wasn't that big a deal.

The 'cost' of TRing is having to relevel and pay a grand worth of turbine points. Saying the tomes are the cost seems silly to me.

[BladedThesis]

They need to just pop the highest inherent bonus you've eaten for each stat into the reincarnation bank.

Tomes are as much loot as anythink else in DDO. They shouldn't have special treatment.

This. Just give us back the tomes and allow them to be eaten at the appropriate min level, so you dont pop in Korthos at lvl 1 w/ a bunch of +4 tomes eaten.

[Hendrik]

A week (or much more for some) of concentrated effort isn't painful enough?

There is nothing wrong with advocating for a change to the current TR system. Removing any trace of the classic delete/reroll pains is not "gimmie", it's "let me keep what I already earned once".

We got a change to respec options once, it can happen again.

Sure advocate away. Best to advocate with at least some idea of what you are going to do to replace the downside to a TR that you want removed.

You can sugar coat it as much as you wish, still 'gimme'.

[Hendrik]

You are probably right that it won't happen. But you aren't really in position to make that absolute claim. Once people said that respecs would never happen, just suck it up and reroll.

I can certainly understand that there are costs associated with the benefits. But those costs are just rules. And rules can change.

They sure can and will, of that we can be sure.

One other thing we can be sure of, Turbine WILL NOT remove the downside to TR. Currently that downside is loss of Tomes you have read. Until people coming up with these petitions find a viable and equally 'painful' downside to TR, just not going to happen. Again, as evidence in this thread, they don't want the downside. Want it all, want it now and to the Nine Hells with established rules that have been in place for decades and the ruleset that we draw upon to play this game.

Might have better luck here to petition WoTC to change the base rules on Tomes.

[Krag]

They sure can and will, of that we can be sure.

One other thing we can be sure of, Turbine WILL NOT remove the downside to TR. Currently that downside is loss of Tomes you have read. Until people coming up with these petitions find a viable and equally 'painful' downside to TR, just not going to happen. Again, as evidence in this thread, they don't want the downside. Want it all, want it now and to the Nine Hells with established rules that have been in place for decades and the ruleset that we draw upon to play this game.

Might have better luck here to petition WoTC to change the base rules on Tomes.

The downsides of TR are TP/token cost and insane exp curve. They will not go even if they get rid of the tome annoyance.

[bobbryan2]

Sure advocate away. Best to advocate with at least some idea of what you are going to do to replace the downside to a TR that you want removed.

You can sugar coat it as much as you wish, still 'gimme'.

I have another downside. How about a ton of epic tokens or TP... and then more xp grinding.

Would that be a suitable downside?

[Phidius]

... Until people coming up with these petitions find a viable and equally 'painful' downside to TR, just not going to happen. Again, as evidence in this thread, they don't want the downside...

Why Turbine would want to cause "pain" in a game that is supposed to be fun is entirely beyond me, but I have absolutely no doubt that it is job #1 to them.

[Tobril]

Sure advocate away. Best to advocate with at least some idea of what you are going to do to replace the downside to a TR that you want removed.

You can sugar coat it as much as you wish, still 'gimme'.

My proposal was extra TP. (or tokens for those who don't want to use the store)

Paying money/tokens seems enough of a cost to me.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I've read through surprisingly much of this.


The main argument seems to be

As with everything else in DDO you should plan your character beforehand to get a nice result and some chat about making something already easy mode even easier.

And the counterargument is more along the lines of 'well it would be nice'.


I'm firmly on the Plan Ahead side. While cool to get an item back, I do feel it is rather like stats distribution. Should TR retain their stats through all lives, perhaps? With whatever modifications they ate along the way.

Ok, you're on the "plan ahead" side.

So tell, according to you, what should these two people have done?

Person 1:

Did not even know about TR because it didn't exist yet. Earned several +3 and +4 tomes over the course of a year, and ate them. Are you telling me that person should have waited to use the tomes for some reason? At that point in time no one even knew what a TR was. There is no "plan ahead" there because you can't plan ahead for things that don't even exist yet.

Person 2:

Saves up all the tomes through multiple TRs and gets completionist. Upon getting completionist, the person eats the tomes because they feel they are finished TRing. A new class is introduced, and the completionist benefit goes away. As a playerbase, we have no idea when the devs will release a new class, or even how many new classes the devs will implement. How can you "plan ahead" in that situation? Answer: you can't, except to never eat your tomes...ever.


It's not just a "it would be nice" thing. It's a "we earned our tomes, now let us TR without having to redo a year or more of work" thing.

[dkyle]

And the downside to all those BENEFITS to a TR is that you loose your Tomes.

Doesn't change the fact that suggesting that GR is a suitable alternative to TR is an entirely disingenuous argument.

What people really want here is to TR for the bonus +2 points AND keep Tomes without ANY downside.

Epic tokens/TP and major XP grind is plenty of downside. Loss of tomes has degenerate effects on the game (people can't use their hard-won loot without fear of future changes to the game), and is not a well designed downside. As far as I can tell, they did it just because it was easy to program, not because they really thought it was a good game design.

You want your cake and eat it to. Sorry, but TS, not going to happen.

We already have our "cake and eat it too". We get to keep BtC items. They did that for a reason. I, and others, are arguing that there's no good reason to make a distinction between BtC items, and consumed tomes.

The precedent is already there.

Not unless the 'gimme' crowd can come up with an equally painful downside to TR.

Insults like this are also disingenuous. I suggest arguing in good faith.

And it's entirely reasonable to believe that certain aspects of the game are too "painful", or are "painful" in stupid, and pointless, ways.

Were LR and GR "gimme"s because they reduced the "painful downside" of respecing? I.e., that you'd lose your XP, and any BtC loot by rerolling?

Were Raid 20ths "gimme"s?

[Zerkul]

/Signed

There are some people which don't reincarnate because they read +3/+4 tomes. Happens especially when you don't have clear ideas about your toons, more often on secondary toons which you may think to not reincarnate and read tomes but then you find yourself stuck in your decision. Keeping the tomes over TR could be a way to convince with the store that kind of customers which would never reincarnate toons with +3/+4 tomes read because they didnt want to TR in first place but they changed idea after some time.

[eonfreon]

They sure can and will, of that we can be sure.

One other thing we can be sure of, Turbine WILL NOT remove the downside to TR. Currently that downside is loss of Tomes you have read. Until people coming up with these petitions find a viable and equally 'painful' downside to TR, just not going to happen. Again, as evidence in this thread, they don't want the downside. Want it all, want it now and to the Nine Hells with established rules that have been in place for decades and the ruleset that we draw upon to play this game.

Might have better luck here to petition WoTC to change the base rules on Tomes.

These rules have been established for decades?

I don't remember True Reincarnating back when I played AD&D. No one wanted to reincarnate under those old rules. You could wind up as a Badger!!

Even the 3.5 rules on the Druidic spell is very different from True Reincarnation as created by Turbine.

I've just read the 3.5 version online. Says nothing about keeping or losing your tomes. However if you roll a 01 you get to come back as a Bugbear!

You're right about one thing at least. I don't want to deal with the downside of losing by few +3 Tomes. So I simply won't TR until I at least find replacements for the Tomes I already used. Or the Devs put in some new magical item to store our tomes, or the rules change and they let us keep our tomes.

I don't even see the point of the xp increase. Especially with so little quests at the high end where you need the most xp. You can blast through without doing all that much of the low level content and then are stuck doing the same handful of quests over and over at the high end.

Why is this a needed downside? Because you had to do so everyone else should? Because you had to lose your tomes everyone else should?

[eonfreon]

And it's entirely reasonable to believe that certain aspects of the game are too "painful", or are "painful" in stupid, and pointless, ways.

Were LR and GR "gimme"s because they reduced the "painful downside" of respecing? I.e., that you'd lose your XP, and any BtC loot by rerolling?

Were Raid 20ths "gimme"s?

Unfortunately, in some people's mind, that is exactly what those developments were. I remember quite well the arguments against being able to upgrade a 28 pointer into a 32 pointer.

They were the same cries of "Suck it up. You want to create a "better" character then you have to accept the "downside" of having to reroll and lose any BtC items you have. It'll never happen. It'll take too much Developer time."

Even when we pointed out that we had earned the favor, why did we have to essential shelve our favor earner and start anew, what kind of twisted reward was that. We were told that's the best we could expect. It would take too much time and money to implement changes.

They were wrong then and we can hope they're wrong again.

[Hendrik]

My proposal was extra TP. (or tokens for those who don't want to use the store)

Paying money/tokens seems enough of a cost to me.

Buying your instant gratification is not a solution.

And still does not replace the downside to TR.

[dmslasher]

i can settle all of this argument they should just increase the drop rate of all tomes to every end reward table so every one will have every stat buffed 2 the max and we will never hear about this stuff again...