Stupid questiong about XP GRIND

[Templarion]

Here we go again...

Ailister is now living his 3rd life, meaning he has true reincarnated 2 times. That makes his experience required to achieve level cap over 100% more when compared to Ailister's 1st life (1,900,000 vs 4,378,500).

Stupid question: Why it has to be like this?


Yesterday I just grinded Gianthold quests because they are good and fast experience. I really would like to do other quests but I would like to reach the level 20 someday as well. So, I grinded: 11 times Cabal One, 11 times Trial by Fire, 11 times A Cry for Help...

After the grind was over and next level reached I realised it is just the same kind of grind waiting me there.

Why it has to be like this? I have understood that Turbine wants me to keep playing the game but this is not fun! This does not make me want to play the game anymore. Something is wrong here. It is not fun and I don't feel like I should return to the game. I call this bad desinging.

Now, how about adding those "more challenge, more experience"-modes to the game? Lots of good ideas here in the forums and I am sure devs have something in mind, too. So... how about adding them before any more cool junk is added? Or...

How about removing extra experience required for true reincarnated characters? Why it is actually even needed?

I just got an answer to my stupid question. Thanks to Dunklezhan! Here it is:

The answers, to me, are obvious Temp - but must come caveated with the knowledge that I generaly don't like the TR mechanic at all, so am very biased indeed. Please add a whole shovel full of salt in interpreting my views here (a mere pinch of salt simply won't cut it, I suspect):

People would acheive completionist much sooner, and characters generally throughout the game would be more powerful. People on their first life would be welcome only in non-TR groups because they'd be too underpowered, and content would need to be ramped up in difficulty to cope, thereby making nonTR characters even less welcome.

Of course, this will all happen with things as they are, and were most likely destined to happen as soon as they introduced the rather broken idea of TR in the first place - but it will take longer as things stand now, and hopefully allow the introduction of so much more new content beforehand that the impact will be limited.

The introduction of the TR mechanic has already introduced an escalating circle of despair, just like to hit numbers have done with AC, which they won't be able to fully resolve ever. All they can do now is mitigate the impact. Reducing the XP amounts required would allow less time to introduce the mitigations.

Best case scenario if they lowered the XP levels involved to the same as 1st life characters is more noobs with powerful characters able to mask their noobishness by sheer power. Vets will stop TRing at all because they learn that not being TR'd actually marks them out as something different, and the content is more challenging without the extra power anyway.

And here is what I answered (like anybody cares):

Excellent! Thank you. That was actually fun to read. I like doomsday theories.

So... DDO is doomed... because of TR-mechanic. So... they should remove it. But they cannot because soon they would lack of players. Lowering XP curve would also do that or maybe even break the game. Hmmh.

Now, after I have heard a good reason for my grind I go back to play! Let's break DDO together!

[Fecerak]

Personally I would say an extra difficulty level perhaps, which gives way more XP but is quite a bit harder than elite. That may perhaps both reduce the grind and add more challenge. However, the problem is how should this be dealt with when you think of the people who aren't TRed. Should they be blocked from it? :/

[ToKu]

Just for clarification... what level were you when you did GH quests? And how many times at each dificulty did you do them?

[blitzschlag]

Here we go again...

Ailister is now living his 3rd life, meaning he has true reincarnated 2 times. That makes his experience required to achieve level cap over 100% more when compared to Ailister's 1st life (1,900,000 vs 4,378,500).

Stupid question: Why it has to be like this?


Yesterday I just grinded Gianthold quests because they are good and fast experience. I really would like to do other quests but I would like to reach the level 20 someday as well. So, I grinded: 11 times Cabal One, 11 times Trial by Fire, 11 times A Cry for Help...

After the grind was over and next level reached I realised it is just the same kind of grind waiting me there.

Why it has to be like this? I have understood that Turbine wants me to keep playing the game but this is not fun! This does not make me want to play the game anymore. Something is wrong here. It is not fun and I don't feel like I should return to the game. I call this bad desinging.

Now, how about adding those "more challenge, more experience"-modes to the game? Lots of good ideas here in the forums and I am sure devs have something in mind, too. So... how about adding them before any more cool junk is added? Or...

How about removing extra experience required for true reincarnated characters? Why it is actually even needed?

i can partly agree.

but still you gain passive feats with your tr that do stack (up to 3 times). what you write is true for someone that just tr's for the sake of tr'ing or because he/she keeps building weak chars they want to fix with a tr.

however, if you have a plan beforehand what and how you reincarnate so the outcoming char has really added lots of power (like 3 wizard/fvs/cleric pastlives or 3 monk pastlives or 3 fighter pastlives for a 3/4 bab class) the grind is well worth it and justified.

sure, if youre just reincarnating your ranger to a rogue and then to a cleric because you feel like (not thinking of you, the op, here as i don't know you) then this might feel like a pain to grind the xp. its a grind and should be

[Jakarr]

Here we go again...

Ailister is now living his 3rd life, meaning he has true reincarnated 2 times. That makes his experience required to achieve level cap over 100% more when compared to Ailister's 1st life (1,900,000 vs 4,378,500).

Stupid question: Why it has to be like this?


Yesterday I just grinded Gianthold quests because they are good and fast experience. I really would like to do other quests but I would like to reach the level 20 someday as well. So, I grinded: 11 times Cabal One, 11 times Trial by Fire, 11 times A Cry for Help...

After the grind was over and next level reached I realised it is just the same kind of grind waiting me there.

Why it has to be like this? I have understood that Turbine wants me to keep playing the game but this is not fun! This does not make me want to play the game anymore. Something is wrong here. It is not fun and I don't feel like I should return to the game. I call this bad desinging.

Now, how about adding those "more challenge, more experience"-modes to the game? Lots of good ideas here in the forums and I am sure devs have something in mind, too. So... how about adding them before any more cool junk is added? Or...

How about removing extra experience required for true reincarnated characters? Why it is actually even needed?

Its made as a time sink which every MMO needs or else the people who have been playing awhile get bored and quit.

I'm on my second TR life as well and am happy with the current xp, before I TR'd I was dreading it and how long it would take to get back to 20...its actually pretty easy ya only gotta remember there are more quests(at least before lvl 18) then you have xp.

[blitzschlag]

Its made as a time sink which every MMO needs or else the people who have been playing awhile get bored and quit.

I'm on my second TR life as well and am happy with the current xp, before I TR'd I was dreading it and how long it would take to get back to 20...its actually pretty easy ya only gotta remember there are more quests(at least before lvl 18) then you have xp.

yeah, you just need some simple rules beforehand.

no shadowcrypt before lvl 9, no sands before lvl 12, no gianthold before lvl 14, no vale before lvl 16, no refuge/iq before lvl 18

and never levelup when you reach a lvl. just level up when you close to cap xp to the overnext lvl.

[dunklezhan]

It has to be this way because epic levels are too hard to balance, they don't want to give you an easy way to correct mistakes (I mean, lesser TR? At those prices? Very silly mechanism. No wonder people just suffer and TR at the end of it) and because it bought turbine some time while they focused on lower level content for new players after F2P launch. Simple really.

If I'd been turbine I'd have concentrated on new higher level content first because there was no shortage of lower level content. I know this to be true: I've been playing since F2P. I have every single pack in the store. I'm a total altoholic and my highest toon is consequently only L16, and that very recently. I have 13 toons, about 9 of which are around L10, 3 below 6, one at L16, and at least two that have been deleted around L7 and started again.

I have still yet to do every sub level 10 quest, and still haven't done a single quest in carnival. Conclusion - there's enough sub level 10 content.

As time goes by and more and more high level content comes out over the next year, that TR grind will become a bit easier because there will be more quests to choose from.

Right now, if you hate the TR grind I'd just roll up a brand new toon and have some fun for a bit. But of course, that's easy for me to say, I'm an altoholic.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Personally I do not think adding another difficulty level that is a lot harder than elite even if it's worth a good chunk of XP will matter. It will probably be less XP per minutes and really that seems to be what a majority of TR's are concerned with.

I'm a middle of the road leveler myself, sometimes I get XP quick and sometimes I just wanna sit back and actually enjoy my playing time....which means shutting off the XP/minute mentality and completing quests with graceful serenity instead of spastik fury.

Does the XP required to level a TR have to be more......most most most definitely yes....you are getting extra build points and free past life feats and in some case a very nice purchasble feat.

You are no longer playing a standard build, you're blowing thru mid level content with GS weaponry and items is you were wise and patient enough to make them before TR'ing.....u have probably a good amount of Raid Loot at your disposal as well.

So yes, being able to level with all that and get the extras should require a higher price.......does it have to be as extreme as it is.........that is another question....which I am sure will have a very large mixed opinion.

The one thing that I do completely disagree with is losing your tomes......if you are not going to lower the XP tables for TR's, at least let us retain our tomes......that in itself is a hefty price to pay, especially if you have used multiple +3 or higher tomes. Maybe make it an option before you start your TR, if you want to retain your tomes you have to TR level at the current XP tables, if you are willing to throw away your tomes then you get a lower amount required but still more than a 1st life leveler.

[Templarion]

Just for clarification... what level were you when you did GH quests? And how many times at each dificulty did you do them?

I started doing Gianthold quests on level 14, I did normal all 11 runs, then hard and then elite.

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sure, if youre just reincarnating your ranger to a rogue and then to a cleric because you feel like (not thinking of you, the op, here as i don't know you) then this might feel like a pain to grind the xp. its a grind and should be

Well, I don't enjoy DDO's end game content so I just keep incarnating. I could, of course, create other toons but it doesn't feel right. I like the TR concept but I don't like too much grind.

...or else the people who have been playing awhile get bored and quit...

But this is exactly what I tried to say. The grind here makes me want to quit even I like the game. I have lots of plans and lots of things I would like to do but why do I have to suffer hours and hours of BORING & UNCHALLENGING grind to see my plans to come true? And believe me... I won't stop when my plans come to true. I will simply reincarnate again.

yeah, you just need some simple rules beforehand....

Yep!

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As time goes by and more and more high level content comes out over the next year, that TR grind will become a bit easier because there will be more quests to choose from.

Too much grind is still too much grind - even with cookies.

[Templarion]

So yes, being able to level with all that and get the extras should require a higher price.......does it have to be as extreme as it is.........that is another question....which I am sure will have a very large mixed opinion.

I agree with you. But the point here is... The game should be fun and interesting to play. Not boring and uninviting.

PS. I have more fun talking with you about this subject here in the forums than playing DDO itself right now. What does that sound like?

[ToKu]

Uhh... If my guildies who are constantly running some TR or another are any indication, the grind is there but not 11 runs on normal neccessary. I think at most I hear them doing N/H/E with extra elites on some of the quests worth the extra runs.

Are you limited on content you can run?

[blitzschlag]

I agree with you. But the point here is... The game should be fun and interesting to play. Not boring and uninviting.

PS. I have more fun talking with you about this subject here in the forums than playing DDO itself right now. What does that sound like?

take a break or move on. no point in forcing yourself to do something.

maybe you will be back one day, maybe not.

farewell

[Dunklerlindwurm]

You dont have to TR. Noone forces you to do it.

Im on my 7th TR and i still enjoy playing. The day i see this game as "work" i would just stop playing.

I know alot of people see all these multible TR toons running around and think they have to have multible TRs to be good.
Then they realize when they have to grind for 4,3 million xp the first time that it is not as "easy" as they thought.

[dunklezhan]

Too much grind is still too much grind - even with cookies.

I agree 100%. Re-read my first paragraph - I am rather contemptuous of the whole TR process itself. As near as I can tell they introduced it as a cheap way to keep people playing while they worked on content, having neglected the game for so long. And people bought into it because they had nothing else to do.

More content was the answer, not more ways to grind the existing content.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I agree with you. But the point here is... The game should be fun and interesting to play. Not boring and uninviting.

PS. I have more fun talking with you about this subject here in the forums than playing DDO itself right now. What does that sound like?

Well, that is pretty easy to figure out....you're burnt out.......sounds like your a powerleveler that doesn't actually play the game anymore but let's the game play you.

Your ambition to attain level 20 is superceding your will to have fun......it is more important for you to attain cap than to enjoy the ride.

Simply put, with this attitude I doubt you will ever enjoy the game again. Put it aside and do something that you enjoy about the game.......get caught up in the maddening march of TR superiority and you will be nothing but a number.

[Lord_WC]

i can partly agree.

but still you gain passive feats with your tr that do stack (up to 3 times). what you write is true for someone that just tr's for the sake of tr'ing or because he/she keeps building weak chars they want to fix with a tr.

however, if you have a plan beforehand what and how you reincarnate so the outcoming char has really added lots of power (like 3 wizard/fvs/cleric pastlives or 3 monk pastlives or 3 fighter pastlives for a 3/4 bab class) the grind is well worth it and justified.

sure, if youre just reincarnating your ranger to a rogue and then to a cleric because you feel like (not thinking of you, the op, here as i don't know you) then this might feel like a pain to grind the xp. its a grind and should be

Oh yes, of course, why didn't I think of this? Since you only need like 4,4m xp, which is with 500xp/min (nowhere near sustainable) is ONLY 146,6 hours of grinding. Wow, this really worths the grind suddenly for like 5% heal amp or +2 to spell pen (and now I'm not talking about like cleric past life or something).

Soooo, for the meagre investment of 1319,4 gaming hours you really get +9 spell pen and +60 sp. Awesome deal! You should go for president!

Think about it. The investment is >> than the reward. Cut down the xp needed for trs or at least double/triple the rewards.

[Pape_27]

i am a slow leveler. I am in the planning stages of a two tr - 1st into wizzy then back to cleric. I am really dreading the xp grind that will be coming my way.

[ToKu]

Oh yes, of course, why didn't I think of this? Since you only need like 4,4m xp, which is with 500xp/min (nowhere near sustainable) is ONLY 146,6 hours of grinding. Wow, this really worths the grind suddenly for like 5% heal amp or +2 to spell pen (and now I'm not talking about like cleric past life or something).

Soooo, for the meagre investment of 1319,4 gaming hours you really get +9 spell pen and +60 sp. Awesome deal! You should go for president!

Think about it. The investment is >> than the reward. Cut down the xp needed for trs or at least double/triple the rewards.

/not signed

Some of the past lives are already pretty strong (such as +2 spell pen) and they are ALL OPTIONAL. There is no reason to do them at all unless you are trying to squeeze a few more stat points into a build or using the past lives to augment a build.

There is no content in this game denied to you if you do not TR. Dont like it? Dont do it.

[ToKu]

i am a slow leveler. I am in the planning stages of a two tr - 1st into wizzy then back to cleric. I am really dreading the xp grind that will be coming my way.

Its really not THAT bad, the biggest factor is personal experience with quests. If you do not know quests well and are pretty much going to join others groups then it can be slow. I run with guildies as often as possible and lead my own pugs and it hasnt been that bad, at least on TR1. That said other then TR2 taking a longer I expect no other issues.

The plus side of TR'n is I have seen alot more content at level which has been fun.

[redraider]

A 2nd TR isn't that bad until lvl 16 or so if you are a VIP with access to all content.

There are enough quests that you can get to lvl 15 with little repeating. On my 2nd TR Barb, I chose to focus on completing every quest in the game on elite as I leveled. I am now lvl 13 (almost 15 by xp points so will have to take 14 soon) and have barely touched Gianthold or the Orchard (maybe one run in each quest).

The focus on every quest elite has actually been a lot of fun! I have 2234 favor at lvl 13!

I have everything to lvl 10 except Devil Assualt (which is 18 on elite), Shadow Lord and Shadow Crypt. Just can't find a group for Shadow Lord and you can't solo that one.

I dread getting to lvl 16 and starting to grind the vale and amarath. I have so ground that small number of quests that I don't look forward to them at all. The XP in Amarath is so low in proportion to the quest length that I just find grinding what are actually pretty well designed quests... tedious.

DDO needs another 40 or so quests above lvl 16. Come on Devs!