clickie out of control?

[selutha]

How else would I get Deathward, GH, Earth Elemental, Stoneskin on a character without enough UMD?

Thats simple, get umd and use scrolls or team with someone that has your buffs.

Do you want to get rid of wands and scrolls too? How about just remove UMD?

Extremest view, not productive in any way, but I will bite. There is a diffrence from a change in game play to make gear choice matter more and simplifying gear choice by removing effects totally.

I like being self sufficient thank you very much.

Your not self sufficient only reliant on your clickies.

[Missing_Minds]

I think you have misread or misunderstood me, I will try again, how many boots, belts, armor, and gloves can you carry? The potions I am fine with, they never say how large they are; they could be just small vials or such. More talking of using a staff to summon, changing to freeze V weapon, inferno V weapon, then putting on 2 secpters for spell pen and focus. Now that seems silly doesn't it?

Welcome to a game and magic vs. real life and backpacking.

What are you going to ask for next? That coins actually have a force value?

[selutha]

I think clickies make playing more fun.

More things to manage => More fun.

And forget the "What would it look like?"-theme. There was never realism in DnD or DDO.

I think you should take a closer look at DnD then, they tried to model the real world and then add fantasy. DDO I do agree is breakage, but from a clickie view point why not just add every buff/spell to a character, then you can manage which one you activate with your action points, in the end it is the same effect, and everyone will just have a different class name in their bio.

[selutha]

Why couldn't you switch stuff and activate it? We all have bags of holding anyway, just keep taking out and putting on items.

DDO is just an over the top monty haul campaign that then has gone totally bananas, and could very well be run in D&D by an (insane) DM and his/her players. If a D&D character can have x magic goggles in his extradimensional mobile storage space, why couldn't ours as well.

And if you want to DDO to "make sense", you shouldn't stop with clickies. There's no sense whatsoever that a 150 pound human can kill a 20 ton (?) dragon - which is fighting back by the way, with feet long claws and teeth - with his fists and feet. But in DDO, and D&D he sure can.

If you being to unravel fantasy tropes, you cannot stop until you reach reality.

Another extreme view, just because I want to add some realism does not mean I do not want any fantasy. A little realism adds weight to the choices you make in gear.

[selutha]

Clickies FTW!

More is better. Clickies make you better, bigger, stronger, more independant.

Its the same in RL. If I go into wilderness, nature doesn't care if I 'role play non-clickie char' or not. If I don't want to freeze to death I need 'fire clickie', if hungry lions want a snack, I need 'boom boom clickie', etc.

So, if you are planning to go into cold woods and don't want to freeze to death you would take a 'fire clickie', it just means you can't take something else. If you don't have a plan then yes you should freeze to death. Look instead of having everything covered by and unrealistic inventory, your choice actually makes a difference.

On a side note:

As for the magic bag of holding, in DnD they do have limits always.

[selutha]

Welcome to a game and magic vs. real life and backpacking.

What are you going to ask for next? That coins actually have a force value?

No only a game that the game play is enhanced a little by having some realism in it. What would you like next a character that has all cleric/wiz spells, armor of a full plate fighter, backstab of a rogue, unlimited sp, and a weapon that kills every mob in one hit? Wanna play a single player game with /god cheat, go have fun.

[Khellendros13]

Thats simple, get umd and use scrolls or team with someone that has your buffs.



Extremest view, not productive in any way, but I will bite. There is a diffrence from a change in game play to make gear choice matter more and simplifying gear choice by removing effects totally.



Your not self sufficient only reliant on your clickies.

Not it is not that simple. I am not going to put an LFM up for a cleric or fvs to come and deathward me, or an arcane to cast jump on me, while I solo Sins or any other quest on my Paladin. I hate using hirelings too.

Read the opening paragraph - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sufficiency

So you don't like using key buffs from items - then don't. Wait around for that haste or deathward or GH instead of doing it yourself and getting on with the quest.

Just don't try to ruin my fun with ******** excuses as to why this is a problem and needs changing.

[GreenGurgler]

Good for you.

Don't like clickies? Don't use em... nuff said.

Its not like were talking about exploits or tactics.

Because you don't like it isn't reason enough to remove or amend the way they work.


That's my useless 2cp.

[Allistair]

... can you imagine what you character would look like at the start of an adventure telling the party "Hang on, i got 7 different belts, 3 shoes, 6 necklaces, 2 trinks, 1 helmet to use before we start."

My wife going on an over night trip???

[Khanyth]

2 cases:

1. The more clickies the player has, it's because they like being self sufficient

2. They don't group with others who like to buff them (for whatever reason)

[phalaeo]

You think 6 bars is a lot?

Check out my 14.


I love my clickies- have 'em for everything, even when I can cast the spell.

[eonfreon]

I'm just going to touch on a couple of points.

First of all as I've gotten higher level and as I've gotten more plat my dependence on clickies has gone down not up. Why carry a clickie with 3 Resist Poisons when I can carry a stack of potions? Same with Rage, Haste, etc.
I have the money and it does me no good sitting in a bank.

Second, the major reason I carry all these weapons and gear is because this is not PnP. As I log on I want to maximize my time and do various quests, not run back and forth to the bank to get the gear I'll need for the quest I'm going to run. In PnP we basically have unlimited space. Yes, because we have "homes" and banks that do not have a hard limit on what you can store in them in PnP.

In DDO I carry my smiting and Greater Construct Bane weapons on me all the time because if I decide to do a quest with constructs I want to be ready to go, not have to run to the bank and change gear around and my bank is clogged up with various nonstacking items that DDO requires I have for various reasons. Most of the time they don't get any use. For all intents and purposes they are not even "there". Heck, I have more space in my backpack then I have in the bank anyway.

In PnP that problem would not really exist. I would tell the DM I went and got my gear before the quest and presto, I have it and time has "passed".

I don't know any DM who would figure the time it would take in real life and use a clock and make us wait around and do nothing while time ticked away. When I say I walk over there, suddenly I'm there, the DM doesn't make me count out the steps and such.

As far as having all the buffs and activate them with AP or something, that sounds slightly interesting, but then you're talking about a complete overhaul of the system and not the same game. Perhaps in a future game, but pointless to even contemplate that for this game.

A good majority of the clickies one uses even before battle, so time is subjective. Maybe it's instant, maybe the game just makes it instant for the sake of my sanity. There's no point in making us wait for "realistic" timed gear changing, just like there's no reason to do it in PnP. All it would do is slow the game down for those of us who enjoy a fast paced game. As an example, people want the Rogue's search for traps animation shortened, not lengthened. Because it's pointless. When a DM tells a Rogue it takes him ten minutes to search an area, it doesn't take ten real minutes.

It's all about roleplaying and imagination. In my mind's eye I see feints and thrusts and parries and blocks that the computer doesn't animate.

This is a world of high magic. What's so "unrealistic" about magical items that are stored in a magical space that instantly materialize when you utter a "command word"?

[biggin]

Though I am curious earth elemental armies? Would you elaborate?

I didn't read until the end so I don't know if this got answered. They have Greensteel clickies that let you summon earth ellies, one at a time now. A few updates ago there was no cap on summoning. Myself and a lot of other players crafted multiple items, therefore letting us raise "ele armies", making soloing a breeze. They got hit with the nerf bat, leaving us with LOTS of useless clickies. Well, not useless, but one ele doesn't compare to 20.

[Qezuzu]

Too many clickies? Prepostorous, I only have Draconic Necklace, a DP ring and the Philarian Pendant.

And a Beholder optics when I need them, and a ring for each energy Resist, and a Disease Immunity ring, and a Underwater Action Item, and a haste clickie, and the Regrowth Cloak from Titan, and a Titan's Grip, and an Invisiblity ring, the Silver Flame pendant, a...

[KillEveryone]

True you would ether have to spend a lot of money or you would not have the buffs, but if it was that way then wouldn't the game play have more variance? I do admit you may not want it to have that much variance.

ex: low lv buffs you want, (yes I know there are many more)

-blur
-resist elements
-protection elements
-rage
-bull's str
-cat's grace

Now we can both agree that those buffs as as few as they maybe will make the quest easier. Normally you have them in clickies. Now lets say you only have these buffs in that you wear actively on your body and use:

-bull's str x3
-rage x3

Assuming 3 charges each, now isn't having a wiz in your party for buffs make it much nicer?

Now lets add a cleric to the mix:

Wiz buffs

-blur
-resist elements
-protection elements
-rage
-bull's str
-cat's grace

Cleric buffs

-aid
-bless
-protection vs evil
-shield of faith
-remove fear

Makes it even nicer, now gameplay and the tactics that you use to run though the quest could start chaning and the hardness level.

If you only use the clickies on you, then it turns that ring of bull's strength and belt of rage x3 from the norm to "Gonna save these for the boss at the end!" I feel it adds more value to that ring of and flavors the game play, but if it isn't for you thats cool. Just trying to get a feel for how others feel, while I personally feel clickies are alittle broken and take away from the game.

The Wizard isn't a buff bot so I don't ask for them to spend their SP on me. I can handle that myself. Clickies last long enough and the wiz can use their SP to play the way they want. They also might not have some of those memorized. Probably blur and resist and if they happly cast it on me I'm thankful but I can suck a pot when I need it and have no problem with the wiz using their SP for what they want to do.

There are very few times I ask for a specific buff from a caster and those times are raids or epic quests and the whole group gets buffed. Those times are harder than a normal quest...in theory at least...but the buffs then help more than a normal quest that can be stomped on.

I may ask for haste but I carry pots if they can't cast it yet at lower levels, same with rage. At low levels it doesn't last long anyway so it does get SP costly.

There are also new people that don't understand spells so they may be learning how to play. If I'm prepared, I don't have to worry about someone that doesn't understand yet.

I also don't like to ask for buffs unless it is for something like Freedom of Movement that you can't get on a clickie or buy scrolls for(Freedom scrolls off the AH is too few. I like to buy scrolls by a full stack of 100,) and the only item that gives that effect is from VoN 6 and it is a rare piece of gear.

I also like to be self sufficient. I also have a haggle bard and farm good vendor loot and buy and sell with that character so plat isn't an issue...been buying festivult coins though and that is puttng a slight crimp into things. Even before that bard though, I still prefered to be self sufficient and like to group with those types of players. They have a semblance of self preservation and that makes my gaming expierence better. Big difference between a player asking for every buff in the book then zerging and yelling hejalllzzzz and someone that can take care of things themselves while zerging.

I don't mind buffing with my caster types and if someone wants something then I'll typically cast it but not everyone has this philosophy.

The clickies last long enough to get between shrines. Low level quests there are typically enough shrines around to recharge them before the last boss. Other quests with several beholders I'll pack a item to even out my stat and work with that. I can also save a clickie for that last boss because trash is really quite easy to deal with anyway.

[selutha]

Not it is not that simple. I am not going to put an LFM up for a cleric or fvs to come and deathward me, or an arcane to cast jump on me, while I solo Sins or any other quest on my Paladin. I hate using hirelings too.

Read the opening paragraph - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sufficiency

So you don't like using key buffs from items - then don't. Wait around for that haste or deathward or GH instead of doing it yourself and getting on with the quest.

Just don't try to ruin my fun with ******** excuses as to why this is a problem and needs changing.

You are a fairly rude person, so this will be the last time I humor your posts before blocking you. I have read and do know the defination to self-sufficent, do you? You are very dependent on your "clickies" which in my eyes makes you not self-sufficient. I am glad that you enjoy the game as it is. I think it could be better so I do suggest a change. We both pay or not for the same game, it is with in my right to suggest a change just as it is in your right to disagree, but I do not believe your have a right to be rude and make me read it. Enjoy your game.

[selutha]

I didn't read until the end so I don't know if this got answered. They have Greensteel clickies that let you summon earth ellies, one at a time now. A few updates ago there was no cap on summoning. Myself and a lot of other players crafted multiple items, therefore letting us raise "ele armies", making soloing a breeze. They got hit with the nerf bat, leaving us with LOTS of useless clickies. Well, not useless, but one ele doesn't compare to 20.

No it was not answered and thanks for the info.

[selutha]

The Wizard isn't a buff bot so I don't ask for them to spend their SP on me. I can handle that myself. Clickies last long enough and the wiz can use their SP to play the way they want. They also might not have some of those memorized. Probably blur and resist and if they happly cast it on me I'm thankful but I can suck a pot when I need it and have no problem with the wiz using their SP for what they want to do.

There are very few times I ask for a specific buff from a caster and those times are raids or epic quests and the whole group gets buffed. Those times are harder than a normal quest...in theory at least...but the buffs then help more than a normal quest that can be stomped on.

I may ask for haste but I carry pots if they can't cast it yet at lower levels, same with rage. At low levels it doesn't last long anyway so it does get SP costly.

There are also new people that don't understand spells so they may be learning how to play. If I'm prepared, I don't have to worry about someone that doesn't understand yet.

I also don't like to ask for buffs unless it is for something like Freedom of Movement that you can't get on a clickie or buy scrolls for(Freedom scrolls off the AH is too few. I like to buy scrolls by a full stack of 100,) and the only item that gives that effect is from VoN 6 and it is a rare piece of gear.

I also like to be self sufficient. I also have a haggle bard and farm good vendor loot and buy and sell with that character so plat isn't an issue...been buying festivult coins though and that is puttng a slight crimp into things. Even before that bard though, I still prefered to be self sufficient and like to group with those types of players. They have a semblance of self preservation and that makes my gaming expierence better. Big difference between a player asking for every buff in the book then zerging and yelling hejalllzzzz and someone that can take care of things themselves while zerging.

I don't mind buffing with my caster types and if someone wants something then I'll typically cast it but not everyone has this philosophy.

The clickies last long enough to get between shrines. Low level quests there are typically enough shrines around to recharge them before the last boss. Other quests with several beholders I'll pack a item to even out my stat and work with that. I can also save a clickie for that last boss because trash is really quite easy to deal with anyway.

The fact that they don't need to memorize the buff decreases the value of the spell. This could in turn under value a wizard's value when compared to a nuking sorc.

Just because you ask for every buff in the game does not mean that you can get them. I believe that this fact makes the game a little more challenging. Now I personally don't see a reason to play a game that is not challenging. I am willing to accept that others do, but I am still happy suggesting a change for what I believe is the better.

"Accept the challenges so that you may feel the exhilaration of victory" - General George S. Patton

[eonfreon]

The fact that they don't need to memorize the buff decreases the value of the spell. This could in turn under value a wizard's value when compared to a nuking sorc.

Just because you ask for every buff in the game does not mean that you can get them. I believe that this fact makes the game a little more challenging. Now I personally don't see a reason to play a game that is not challenging. I am willing to accept that others do, but I am still happy suggesting a change for what I believe is the better.

"Accept the challenges so that you may feel the exhilaration of victory" - General George S. Patton

Actually, you've not made any real suggestions, simply a statement that "clickies are out of control" and inquired how many thought the same. Obviously not too many people at all feel the same way you do.
You've also muddied the waters by talking about items as well, such as weapons and scepters and robes and such.
I really don't have too hard a time imagining a Caster rummaging through his bag for the appropriate scepters and wands.

You suggested some vague ideas about Action Points powering our buffs, or increasing the time for changing items (the worst idea of all; time is subjective in PnP and DDO alike, there is no need to have a timer that emulates the real time involved in changing in and out of a suit of armor, that would just make Robe users even more powerful, because you can't really argue that a Robe isn't really darn fast to slip in and out of), and having to have the item in hand to get the benefit. Which would simply change all the clickies into boosting items.

And your quote is out of place.
No good General would ever knowingly hamstring himself. Patton would use every "clickie" he had on hand to win. I find it hard to believe otherwise. Overwhelming force and all that. The best battles are already won before the engagement. Any competent general would tell you that.

[hityawithastick]

See, I don't have the patience to swap a bunch of gear on and off before a quest.

I always figure--melee toons should be built to be self-sufficient without buffs, and any kind of spellcasters can buff themselves with their magic. And why bother investing in a clickie when so many potions drop from chests?