clickie out of control?

[selutha]

Actually, you've not made any real suggestions, simply a statement that "clickies are out of control" and inquired how many thought the same. Obviously not too many people at all feel the same way you do.
You've also muddied the waters by talking about items as well, such as weapons and scepters and robes and such.
I really don't have too hard a time imagining a Caster rummaging through his bag for the appropriate scepters and wands.

So are "clickies" not items?

-scepter's "clickie" effects - inferno, erosion, spark, freeze, cacophony, brilliance, beatitude, nihil, ardor, mending, impact, efficacy

-scepter's continuous effects - combustion, corrosion, magnetism, glaciation, resonance, radiance, benevolence, nullification, devotion, reconstruction, impulse, potency, spell lore.

-robes also can have a spell with X amount of charges.

I fail to see how this could not be clear for someone who has played DDO. Also if you read prior posts it is evidant from the language that I am talking about how many people carry.

The suggestions are there, perhaps I should list them out for you with #'s as I do not feel that you have properly read the posts.

You suggested some vague ideas about Action Points powering our buffs, or increasing the time for changing items (the worst idea of all; time is subjective in PnP and DDO alike, there is no need to have a timer that emulates the real time involved in changing in and out of a suit of armor, that would just make Robe users even more powerful, because you can't really argue that a Robe isn't really darn fast to slip in and out of), and having to have the item in hand to get the benefit. Which would simply change all the clickies into boosting items.

If time is subjective then why does it take time to pull a lever, put on full plate, cast spells? There is a measure of time, you seem to suggest that I am saying that in game it should take the same amount of time to put on plate mail as it does in real life. Please quote me where I have said this. Sure you can take a robe off but it still takes time to put one on and pack the other up.

Clickies should be better than static effects, for instance if you can not slot a high str item but want it. You can put it on a ring and have the spell bull's str cast on you for a temp +4 to str, take that ring off and the effect ends. You have also failed to say why this would be bad.

And your quote is out of place.
No good General would ever knowingly hamstring himself. Patton would use every "clickie" he had on hand to win. I find it hard to believe otherwise. Overwhelming force and all that. The best battles are already won before the engagement. Any competent general would tell you that.

Generals often hamstring themselves in a game, it is to make it more challenging so their mistakes are more evident and it make them use better tactics/strategic. You are talking about when it costs them lives a limited resource.

Chess was called the "King's Game" because it was used to teach war strategy in the middle ages. When you learn chess many times you are set up problem that you must move in a specific way to solve, the right answer, those problems hamstring one side. Also I do not think that a general will be interested in an easy game. My quote fits perfectly, maybe study history some more?

[noinfo]

You are a fairly rude person, so this will be the last time I humor your posts before blocking you. I have read and do know the defination to self-sufficent, do you? You are very dependent on your "clickies" which in my eyes makes you not self-sufficient...

Then you had better go back and read it again. Clikies are fine. Don't like them, then don't use them but don't expect others to fill in the gaps all the time for you. If you want to wait for particular party forms so that you get the buffs you need, no worries. A lot of us prefer to get on with it and run as is when possible. I do find it funny with the swapping of gear to activate a clickie myself but lets face it, swaping a magic item instantly is less fantastic then dropping a meteor swarm on an enemy...

You asked for feedback. Don't crack up when people give it too you.

[noinfo]

Thats simple, get umd and use scrolls or team with someone that has your buffs.



Extremest view, not productive in any way, but I will bite. There is a diffrence from a change in game play to make gear choice matter more and simplifying gear choice by removing effects totally.



Your not self sufficient only reliant on your clickies.

1. Gear clickies are limited in both duration and number of times per day. Scrolls and Pots are not. If you think people will not have enough money to fund pots and scrolls you need to go play a bit more.

2. Everyone in this game IS gear dependant. If you think otherwise once again play for a bit longer at end game to actually get an understanding of this. It does not matter what class, what race etc you are, YOU ARE DEPENDANT on gear. Ensuring you have the right gear is self sufficiency...

[shagath]

You are losing dps, toughness and overall effectiveness if you are skipping clickies you don't wear constantly. Also you will probably make some quests or raids fail too. I don't see that as a fun but hey, you can play however you want anyhow.

I don't like clickies too much(have only 14 shortcut bars) but for my own play, I use whatever makes said quest/raid easier. I like challenge but not by preventing yourself to be effective.

One idea that has been in my mind for quite some time is to just have clickies from items on shortcut bars so you can active them without swapping gear.

[selutha]

Then you had better go back and read it again. Clikies are fine. Don't like them, then don't use them but don't expect others to fill in the gaps all the time for you. If you want to wait for particular party forms so that you get the buffs you need, no worries. A lot of us prefer to get on with it and run as is when possible. I do find it funny with the swapping of gear to activate a clickie myself but lets face it, swaping a magic item instantly is less fantastic then dropping a meteor swarm on an enemy...

You asked for feedback. Don't crack up when people give it too you.

Ok, let me point out the statement that I felt was rude and explain:

Originally Posted by Khellendros13

"Read the opening paragraph - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sufficiency"
"Just don't try to ruin my fun with ******** excuses as to why this is a problem and needs changing."

Now the first no so bad but its more like saying do you know what suelf-sufficency is you should read, here your too foolish to know.

The second tries to invilidate what I have pointed out in my arguement and tries to belittle it as a ****** excuse. I do not have the need or desire to carry a discussion with such statements because they are no productive.

In short I did not fault him for giving me feed back but for how the feed back was presented.

Now lets answer your argument:

I am saying that the holes that exist because you don't have every buff make the game a little more interesting. Every quest I have run, if I was missing a few buffs it was not the end of the world. If you can not complete a quest because you don't have bull's str, blur, gh, haste, and rage then I would think that game play/strategic/tactics are suspect or perhaps the quest is not intended to be soloed?

True some has just to say well you have never run level 16+ quests on elite. Your right I have not, solo.

[selutha]

You are losing dps, toughness and overall effectiveness if you are skipping clickies you don't wear constantly. Also you will probably make some quests or raids fail too. I don't see that as a fun but hey, you can play however you want anyhow.

So you are saying in a raid that if you don't use 15 clickies before the start of a quest it is fail? I find that hard to believe. You will miss out on some dps, sure if you don't have haste (I know there are many others, but just using this as an example.), but then haste spell from a wiz/sorc/bard/theif become oh so nice and needed for the raid.

I don't like clickies too much(have only 14 shortcut bars) but for my own play, I use whatever makes said quest/raid easier. I like challenge but not by preventing yourself to be effective.

I still believe that you can make yourself effective w/o using 3 sets of clickies at the start. Please explain how you would not be effective without a clickie.

One idea that has been in my mind for quite some time is to just have clickies from items on shortcut bars so you can active them without swapping gear.

This idea I like, using the clickies that you have on your body is fine its when someone puts on five different belts and uses them all is my complaint.

I think that people have gotten the idea that I think clickies should be removed from the game, this is not so. What I am saying is put all your gear on at the beginning of the game and use only the clickies that you have on at that time, maybe switch out at a shrine for a completely new set. (I do this only at shrines so the buffs from the previous set goes away first. Like a quest that you need fire resist in the beginning and at one point turns to ice damage. keep fire resist gear on until you hit a shrine, then move to cold resist gear.

My main complaint was eximplefied by an earlier screen shot how many belts does he have for clicking 8?

[Lithic]

Personally I avoid clickies (and short duration scrolls) as much as possible. Takes long enough to buff at the beginning of a quest with just a couple clickies, I don't need to add to it. Its part of the reason I don't really like playing monks or paladins, theres too much of a clickfest.

The only ones I use these days are

GH clickies (I carry 2 girds)
Deathward clickies (I carry 2 goggles from tangleroot)
Detect doors 3xday (at least until I get to 13 and wear my tharnes goggles)
Invisibility 3xday (helps zerg tons of quests)
exp. retreat 5xday(until lvl 4 when I get haste pots)

[DougGlyndwyr]

Quite simply put, as a Cleric, I appreciate when my players bring pots and/or clickies to be self sufficent. Every time I do not have to put resist energy on five different people can result in two extra casts of a heal or a destruction which can save their lives. My bard, in the same situation, can get off extra Dancing Spheres or Facinates. And both appreciate the ability to remove curses, 'cause I ain't got the time to wipe your curse and then drop a heal, and that just adds 15-25 spell points to something that should be a clickie or a pot away.

My melees usually only carry a remove poison, remove curse, death ward, and feather fall clickies. It's just the way I play, and I don't insist on buffs 'cause I usually use statted gear or enhancements to get what I need. You make the assumption that when you go out into a party with a Cleric, Wizard, or Bard he's there to service YOUR buff needs, but that may not be his build if he's a facination Bard, a Boomstick Wizard, or a Destruction/Undead Cleric... all of which have a valid use in the game. So you can do with out the buffs. But the clickies are there, as magical items, with reasonable restrictions in terms of per-day use, to help the people who prefer buffs in their questing, which, for good or for ill, is a fairly important part of the game.

[eonfreon]

Now lets answer your argument:

I am saying that the holes that exist because you don't have every buff make the game a little more interesting. Every quest I have run, if I was missing a few buffs it was not the end of the world. If you can not complete a quest because you don't have bull's str, blur, gh, haste, and rage then I would think that game play/strategic/tactics are suspect or perhaps the quest is not intended to be soloed?

True some has just to say well you have never run level 16+ quests on elite. Your right I have not, solo.

And we're saying if you don't want every buff in the book that's your right, play how you want to. The rules and mechanics of the game do not have to change so that you can play your way. You assume that everyone needs clickies. It's not even true.

Example of my clickies on my capped Paladin:
I hit GH on my Draconic Necklace and I keep it on because it's also currently my +6 Con booster. I cast my spells (I'm a Paladin, I have those), resists, Zeal, Divine favor. I switch from my DT vestment that gave me spell points and switch to my DT vestment with Armor bonus and Radiance Guard. I do the quest.
Barkskin: pot. Rage: pot. Haste: pot. Raise Dead when someone dies: UMD scroll. Level drained? Restore scroll (that way I don't have to keep the spell).

Weapons I only switch around a couple, usually I just use my Holy Sword and my LIt II.

So under your "rules" I'm perfectly alright.

If you have issues with how much things can go in your backpack then limit them yourself. If you think it should take longer to equip something then wait between actions.

In chess one may place themselves in a bad situation to see if they can figure out a way out of it. What they don't do is change the rules so that the knight can suddenly move diagonally instead. And even if they do, it's in isolation. The rules of chess are the rules of chess. A couple of players may change it for their individual game if they like, but the rules for everyone else stays the same. If you wish to play a modified game with DDO, there's absolutely nothing stopping you, I simply don't wish to play your version of DDO.

Play the least self-sufficient class; the Barbarian and limit how much gear you carry. You'll really like the Barbarian. He can't use clickies when he's Raged.

Also, really want to challenge yourself? Play perma-death.

[karnokvolrath]

I think you have misread or misunderstood me, I will try again, how many boots, belts, armor, and gloves can you carry?

42.



Clickies ftw.

[shagath]

So you are saying in a raid that if you don't use 15 clickies before the start of a quest it is fail?

No, I said some might probably fail.

I still believe that you can make yourself effective w/o using 3 sets of clickies at the start. Please explain how you would not be effective without a clickie.

I wasn't talking about 3 sets of clickies, don't put words on my mouth and be so defensive when I wasn't even attacking.. For example melee dps isn't doing damage fast enough. If you think high level raids on hard/elite or some middle level on epic, this really matters. Weak party is a strain on everyones resources, mostly clerics. Try doing elite tod or epic chronoscope without clickies.. or try even find a healer that's ok with it.

I think that people have gotten the idea that I think clickies should be removed from the game, this is not so. What I am saying is put all your gear on at the beginning of the game and use only the clickies that you have on at that time, maybe switch out at a shrine for a completely new set. (I do this only at shrines so the buffs from the previous set goes away first. Like a quest that you need fire resist in the beginning and at one point turns to ice damage. keep fire resist gear on until you hit a shrine, then move to cold resist gear.

I got your point when you made original post.. I just said what I think about it.

My main complaint was eximplefied by an earlier screen shot how many belts does he have for clicking 8?

For a caster belts are important. If you aren't using amrath belt as a clickie for freeze(or eardweller), polar ray isn't worth sp spent. If you aren't using clickie for superior inferno, delayed blast fireball(it's level VII so you need either belt for it or regalia of the phoenix to name few) or wall of fire isn't worth casting at higher levels. You can still keep on casting these even without but that sp would serve usually better as just being a party buff bot. Some save sp by doing gh from belt instead from scroll or spell. I can see situation someone wanting to have 8 belts for clickies. It's easier to have one slot for clickies instead all different slots.

I don't care what people think or even what I think(don't like) about using clickies. If you use the right ones, it makes you more effective. If your whole party decided not to use clickies, that makes whole party ineffective. Sometimes it means strain, sometimes it means fail, sometimes it means nothing but the fact remains: you are more effective by using clickies and not just a strain to your party.

[KillEveryone]

The fact that they don't need to memorize the buff decreases the value of the spell. This could in turn under value a wizard's value when compared to a nuking sorc.

Just because you ask for every buff in the game does not mean that you can get them. I believe that this fact makes the game a little more challenging. Now I personally don't see a reason to play a game that is not challenging. I am willing to accept that others do, but I am still happy suggesting a change for what I believe is the better.

"Accept the challenges so that you may feel the exhilaration of victory" - General George S. Patton

Just because they memorize the spell doesn't mean that the value goes up.

It is their character to play. It is their blue bar to use as they see fit.

I play a wizard. I remember how much SP I actually had a lower levels. Every shrine it was important for me to burn off any remaining SP to buff other people before I shrine to conserve what SP I had. All casters do this. We do understand the importance of buffs.

A caster is NOT a buff bot. A hireling can be. Hirelings don't care if they are abused. People don't like to be abused...some do but that is a different topic.

A player is NOT there for me. A player is there to have fun. I play to have fun. I want my buffs so I carry clickies and pots.

Patton would also use every resource he had access to attain victory. Every victorious general did. If they had clickies, they would use them at the most appropriate time to get the most effect from their use.

Another extreme view, just because I want to add some realism does not mean I do not want any fantasy. A little realism adds weight to the choices you make in gear.

Don't mess up my game just because you don't want to use clickies.

If you don't want to use clickies, then you have yourself to police. Don't force me to give up my clickies just because YOU don't want to use clickies.

That is all YOUR choice, not mine.

I'll use my clickies thank you very much.

I think that people have gotten the idea that I think clickies should be removed from the game, this is not so. What I am saying is put all your gear on at the beginning of the game and use only the clickies that you have on at that time, maybe switch out at a shrine for a completely new set. (I do this only at shrines so the buffs from the previous set goes away first. Like a quest that you need fire resist in the beginning and at one point turns to ice damage. keep fire resist gear on until you hit a shrine, then move to cold resist gear.

no, No, NO. NO!

If I need a buff, I'll hit my clicky thank you.

I don't want to swap gear for certain buffs when I hit the shrine with no chance of having other effects on just because I can't wear all my clicky gear.

If I want a resist item on, I can wear one. If I want a resist item on and have a different effect going, I will hit my clicky or clickies.

Thats simple, get umd and use scrolls or team with someone that has your buffs.

Extremest view, not productive in any way, but I will bite. There is a diffrence from a change in game play to make gear choice matter more and simplifying gear choice by removing effects totally.

Your not self sufficient only reliant on your clickies.

The best players are typically self sufficient.

They have a semblance of self preservation. They can zerg hard and survive without a need for a baby sitter.

Some of that self sufficiency comes in the form of clickies. I have no problem with using clickies for self preservation. Just because they use clickies, does not mean they are not self sufficient.

If you want to equate clickie use to being not self sufficient, you should also include pots in your thinking because you have essentially stated that if you can't heal yourself without a blue bar, you are not a self sufficient melee. If you cannot haste yourself without a blue bar, you are not self sufficient.

You are saying that you need to bring someone along to keep you healed.

You are saying that you need to bring someone along to keep your resistances up.

You may be OK with pots but by your thinking, you are reliant on pots, not self sufficient.

Self sufficientcy means that a person can take care of their own heals, resists, and buffs that their character needs. Some have a blue bar to help with that. Others don't.

[Aloro]

If your concern is realism (in a fantasy game but we'll let that go) then imagine that every lvl 1 adventurer has a Heward's Handy Haversack. Problem solved!

If your concern is that clickies can render content too easy, then you are free to handicap yourself however you wish until you achieve the desired difficulty. You are not however free to impose your own desires and views onto other players.

All the tools you need to play the game your way are already at your disposal.

[selutha]

I wasn't talking about 3 sets of clickies, don't put words on my mouth and be so defensive when I wasn't even attacking.. For example melee dps isn't doing damage fast enough. If you think high level raids on hard/elite or some middle level on epic, this really matters. Weak party is a strain on everyones resources, mostly clerics. Try doing elite tod or epic chronoscope without clickies.. or try even find a healer that's ok with it.

That is the point I am talking about 3 sets of clickies. So, please don't be so defensive as I was not placing words in your mouth. I have reread the post and still do not see it as being defensive, if you took it that way it was not intended.

I got your point when you made original post.. I just said what I think about it.

This was not nesserly to you but to others that would read the post, I will make sure in the future to exclude a section that I was writting that is not directed at you as that was not my intention.

For a caster belts are important. If you aren't using amrath belt as a clickie for freeze(or eardweller), polar ray isn't worth sp spent. If you aren't using clickie for superior inferno, delayed blast fireball(it's level VII so you need either belt for it or regalia of the phoenix to name few) or wall of fire isn't worth casting at higher levels. You can still keep on casting these even without but that sp would serve usually better as just being a party buff bot. Some save sp by doing gh from belt instead from scroll or spell. I can see situation someone wanting to have 8 belts for clickies. It's easier to have one slot for clickies instead all different slots.

I was not that impressed by fire wall w/o a 50% inferno secpter, so I can easily believe this. Also I guess not every player belives that you are not there to give buffs. Every team I have been in asks for a few buffs. Also I did find it very funny that a guildie was kicked from a team because he did not have blur memorized. I do hope this is not the norm, but funny to me none the less.

I don't care what people think or even what I think(don't like) about using clickies. If you use the right ones, it makes you more effective. If your whole party decided not to use clickies, that makes whole party ineffective. Sometimes it means strain, sometimes it means fail, sometimes it means nothing but the fact remains: you are more effective by using clickies and not just a strain to your party.

Are you saying that there is something that you don't like about clickies? I would be intrested in your opinion about that or I may have read your first sentence poorly, please feel free to elaborate. As for being ineffective I think I would disagree there, less effective sure.

[selutha]

Just because they memorize the spell doesn't mean that the value goes up.

No, but because they memorized it says that the spell has a value to it. A spell that there is no reason or benefit to memorize means it has a lower value to the wizard/sorc.

A player is NOT there for me. A player is there to have fun. I play to have fun. I want my buffs so I carry clickies and pots.

So do you also expect a cleric/fvs/bard to never heal? I mean if they did that would mean there were there for you in a way. take that with a grain of salt just having some fun.

Patton would also use every resource he had access to attain victory. Every victorious general did. If they had clickies, they would use them at the most appropriate time to get the most effect from their use.

I feel I have answered this fairly well in a previous post, please re-read if your interested.

Don't mess up my game just because you don't want to use clickies.

If you don't want to use clickies, then you have yourself to police. Don't force me to give up my clickies just because YOU don't want to use clickies.

That is all YOUR choice, not mine.

I'll use my clickies thank you very much.

I do hope this answers this line of thought once and for all. I do not have the ability to mess up YOUR game. If I did we would not be talking about it would we?

no, No, NO. NO!

If I need a buff, I'll hit my clicky thank you.

I don't want to swap gear for certain buffs when I hit the shrine with no chance of having other effects on just because I can't wear all my clicky gear.

If I want a resist item on, I can wear one. If I want a resist item on and have a different effect going, I will hit my clicky or clickies.

Great, then don't play like me? ... I am perfectly happy that you don't want to play like me.

The best players are typically self sufficient.

They have a semblance of self preservation. They can zerg hard and survive without a need for a baby sitter.

Some of that self sufficiency comes in the form of clickies. I have no problem with using clickies for self preservation. Just because they use clickies, does not mean they are not self sufficient.

If you want to equate clickie use to being not self sufficient, you should also include pots in your thinking because you have essentially stated that if you can't heal yourself without a blue bar, you are not a self sufficient melee. If you cannot haste yourself without a blue bar, you are not self sufficient.

You are saying that you need to bring someone along to keep you healed.

You are saying that you need to bring someone along to keep your resistances up.

You may be OK with pots but by your thinking, you are reliant on pots, not self sufficient.

Self sufficientcy means that a person can take care of their own heals, resists, and buffs that their character needs. Some have a blue bar to help with that. Others don't.

I feel that you have missed several posts and points if this is what you are getting out the discussion. I don't think I can explain it in a diffrent way if you do not understand what I am talking about as I think the discussion has moved past the base point of defining the problem. I am sorry and I am glad that you enjoy the game as it is.

[selutha]

If your concern is realism (in a fantasy game but we'll let that go) then imagine that every lvl 1 adventurer has a Heward's Handy Haversack. Problem solved!

from google:

A bag of holding appears to be a common cloth sack of about 2 by 4 feet (0.61 by 1.2 m) in size. It opens into a nondimensional space (similar to magic satchel) or a pocket dimension, making the space larger inside than it is outside. Each bag always weighs the same amount, between 15 and 60 pounds (6.8 and 27 kg), regardless of what is put into it. It can store a combined weight of up to forty times its own weight, and a combined volume of 30 to 250 cubic feet (0.85 to 7.1 m3). A living creature put in a bag of holding will suffocate after about 10 minutes.
If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if a sharp object pierces it (from outside or inside), the bag will rupture and be ruined, the contents lost forever in non-space.

It does have a limit and sharp objects would cause a problem. Problem NOT solved. Yes, I do love taking sarcasm as truth.

If your concern is that clickies can render content too easy, then you are free to handicap yourself however you wish until you achieve the desired difficulty. You are not however free to impose your own desires and views onto other players.

All the tools you need to play the game your way are already at your disposal.

Answered this just now, so I will say again: I do feel that using entire sets of clickies renders the content too easy, I do handicap myself and IF I could impose my wish on you would we even be discussing this? I am free to suggest/discuss a change or views that I feel would better the game. You are FREE to disagree with me, but to tell me that I cannot do a thing is something that you can not enforce.

Sorry if that reads alittle aggressive but I am free to do what I am doing and getting of accused of not being able to do this is getting tire some, please don't take it personally or singled out there are others that have said the same. It is to all of their statements that I direct this at.

One more small thing: Many fantasy "things" have realism in them. Why should my toon walk, swing a sword, have a hit do damage, have a limited inventory, not be permadeath on dieing, and the list can go on and on, (but we will let that go, will we not?)

[selutha]

42.



Clickies ftw.

The simple irony of this statement brings a grin to my face. Thanks!

[KillEveryone]

No, but because they memorized it says that the spell has a value to it. A spell that there is no reason or benefit to memorize means it has a lower value to the wizard/sorc.

A wizard at lvl 7 can memorize 2 level 4 spells.

Wall of fire is pretty much given because of how effective it is for the SP cost. Some may opt for something else but most will take this spell because it is the most effective damage spell with the amount of SP used.

Even if they didn't take wall of fire, they still have only two slots available.

Which spell should the wizard take?

There are a lot of useful spells for that level.

Dimension Door has uses and can't be bought in scroll.
Ice storm is getting a buff to be much more effective and the scrolls and wands will probably be taken out of the vendors much like firewall was.
Phantasmal Killer is a really nice spell.
If they are warforged they will probably take repair critical.

They can't memorize more that 2 at level seven but according to you they are all of less value since they don't memorize them.

Also at that level is remove curse...comes in clickies.
Stoneskin...come in clickies from Shroud and can be UMD from a wand if someone has a high enough UMD unless someone gives that wand to the wizard and ask them to keep wanding you which is baby sitting.

These are not valued less just because the arcane doesn't memorize them.

My wizard took firewall and phantasmal killer. I have clickies for remove curse and can wand stoneskin. If we are in a quest that dimension door is very handy I'll swap out phantasmal killer but I will really wish I still had phantasmal killer. I've ran a warforged and had repair crittical instead of phantasmal kill because the spell works much better than the wands and scrolls.

All these spells have value. You have suggested that I get my buffs from a wizard...stoneskin in this case. Why should they cast it on me if I have a Shroud clicky that does the exact same thing and lasts just as long as a non extended version?

It doesn't devalue the spell just because I have it in clicky form. If I crafted that item just for that clicky then it would seem there is greater importance to that spell. However, just because I put importance upon a spell, doesn't mean that another player puts that same importance on that spell. A warforged will find repair crittical much more important since it is healing. Why should a warforged wizard swap out that spell or any other spell they want to use....on THEIR character...just to cast stoneskin on me? They are not there to babysit me.

So do you also expect a cleric/fvs/bard to never heal? I mean if they did that would mean there were there for you in a way. take that with a grain of salt just having some fun.

Why should they heal in a quest?

THAT IS NOT THEIR JOB! THAT IS NOT NOT NOT THEIR JOB!!!!!!!

They may toss out a healing spell but seriously they are not a babysitter. There are very few quests that a dedicated healer is needed. The rest of the quests don't need someone to babysit you. Suck a pot.

I expect a divine to play their class with all their abilities. If they can toss a heal then I do appreciate it but I don't require it. I would rather they use that SP to kill and CC because I can suck a pot.

They also can't heal around a corner or through a barrier. Ritual sacrifice has barriers that go up and if the party isn't through a certain part, they get separated until the critters are dead inside that barrier. There are other quests similar...can't think of the house K one that has a chest with mephets...anyway a barrier goes up. The "healer" can't heal through that barrier.

If you have some semblance of self preservation, you have heal pots and will most likely survive that encounter simply because you are prepared.

They are not in my way at all. I don't sit around waiting for a dedicated healer. Since I don't sit around waiting for a divine, I get what useful buff spells available on a clicky. Even if they were in my group, I don't require them to buff me because that is NOT their job.

Any caster is not a buff bot like you suggested in your previous post.

Snipped the rest

Reread some posts so here we recapp...

500 pots will take up a load of room. I typically start with a full stack of 100 of each type of pot. Do you really think I could in reality carry 500 pots? Do you really think that 500 pots is going to be smaller than 10 scepters. Even if they were a small vial, they will take up a lot of space and that is not including the 300 haste pots, 100 heroism pots(I can get this on clickies,) 100 rage pots, 100 lesser restoration pots, 300 healing pots. I'll also pack 50 of each protection pot so that is another 250 pots.

How about having a dozen or so hams? They are not a ham sandwich...they are hams.

A stack of 1000 of each spell component. 1000 hearts of hens is going to take up much more space than 10 scepters.

We do have a finite amount of space. We have 100 slots available in our backpacks. Of those slots, there are limits to stacks.

Ring clickies would actually take up less bag space if this was PnP and we had a bag of holding. I don't think we'd be able to carry much more than a hundred pots. Belts would take up less space...look at a real belt to see how much space they actually occupy.

If you want to play by your rules, you have to limit the number of pots you can carry because you would not be able to carry that much in PnP unless the DM is generous.

Do you actually limit yourself by your rules? If you don't then you are being a bit hypocritical.


Now realism.

In a fantasy game. Really? I shoot fireballs and lighting from my hands. I kill critters from a distance with finger of death and phantasmal killer.

Really? Seriously?

We fight devils and orthons that will teleport around the field.

We can teleport around town.

We fight critters that shoot lightening at us.

Realism? Really? Seriously?

We fight beholders and dragons.

We can raise dead.

Realism? Seriously?


Generals and hamstringing themselves.

How do I hamstring myself. I'll grab a group of non self-sufficient people and open on elite right away.

I then use my clickies and show them how the quest gets done while they are ****ing and moaning about not having certain buffs and this shows them the value of being prepared...that includes having clickies with buffs so you don't have to rely on a caster that may not be in a group.

I want to play the game. I'm not going to wait for the perfect group because that is wasting time. If you want to wait around, go ahead.

--------

I don't want my clickies changed because someone else doesn't like them.

Stay out of my backpack.

They are not game breaking.

They allow my non-UMD characters to be self sufficient.

They allow my caster characters cast a spell that is not available to that particular caster class.

They do not make me immortal.

They allow me to be self sufficient.

They allow me to play the game without having to wait for classes that can cast the spell I'd like to have.

They allow me to NOT IMPOSE upon others blue bars because I'm sure there are people that would like to do other stuff with their blue bar.


If you don't like clickies, don't use them. Leave mine alone.

[AndyD47]

bought 500 haste potions,300 rage potions,200 cure serious wounds potions,,and 200 heroism potions for a paladin I made a week ago.

I'm now both broke and in clickie heaven.

I spend more time looking at timers than where I'm going now.

[selutha]

A wizard at lvl 7 can memorize 2 level 4 spells.

Wall of fire is pretty much given because of how effective it is for the SP cost. Some may opt for something else but most will take this spell because it is the most effective damage spell with the amount of SP used.

Even if they didn't take wall of fire, they still have only two slots available.

Which spell should the wizard take?

There are a lot of useful spells for that level.

Dimension Door has uses and can't be bought in scroll.
Ice storm is getting a buff to be much more effective and the scrolls and wands will probably be taken out of the vendors much like firewall was.
Phantasmal Killer is a really nice spell.
If they are warforged they will probably take repair critical.

They can't memorize more that 2 at level seven but according to you they are all of less value since they don't memorize them.

Also at that level is remove curse...comes in clickies.
Stoneskin...come in clickies from Shroud and can be UMD from a wand if someone has a high enough UMD unless someone gives that wand to the wizard and ask them to keep wanding you which is baby sitting.

These are not valued less just because the arcane doesn't memorize them.

My wizard took firewall and phantasmal killer. I have clickies for remove curse and can wand stoneskin. If we are in a quest that dimension door is very handy I'll swap out phantasmal killer but I will really wish I still had phantasmal killer. I've ran a warforged and had repair crittical instead of phantasmal kill because the spell works much better than the wands and scrolls.

All these spells have value. You have suggested that I get my buffs from a wizard...stoneskin in this case. Why should they cast it on me if I have a Shroud clicky that does the exact same thing and lasts just as long as a non extended version?

It doesn't devalue the spell just because I have it in clicky form. If I crafted that item just for that clicky then it would seem there is greater importance to that spell. However, just because I put importance upon a spell, doesn't mean that another player puts that same importance on that spell. A warforged will find repair crittical much more important since it is healing. Why should a warforged wizard swap out that spell or any other spell they want to use....on THEIR character...just to cast stoneskin on me? They are not there to babysit me.

Well I would suggest that you read your own post for it proves the point that spells have a value.

You choose firewall and phantasmal killer, why? Why not the others this is because you find them more VALUABLE than the other spells at that level. Further more in the quests that you switch out Dimensional Door you have decided that, that spell has a higher VALUE than phantasmal killer for that quest.

Really after reading your post you still say that spells can not be more valuable than other spells is really perplexing. If you can't see this fact from your own argument then I would say you and I have reached an impasse and will just have to agree or disagree, for I can not see how any more discussion between us on this one point will be fruitless.

Why should they heal in a quest?

THAT IS NOT THEIR JOB! THAT IS NOT NOT NOT THEIR JOB!!!!!!!

They may toss out a healing spell but seriously they are not a babysitter. There are very few quests that a dedicated healer is needed. The rest of the quests don't need someone to babysit you. Suck a pot.

I expect a divine to play their class with all their abilities. If they can toss a heal then I do appreciate it but I don't require it. I would rather they use that SP to kill and CC because I can suck a pot.

They also can't heal around a corner or through a barrier. Ritual sacrifice has barriers that go up and if the party isn't through a certain part, they get separated until the critters are dead inside that barrier. There are other quests similar...can't think of the house K one that has a chest with mephets...anyway a barrier goes up. The "healer" can't heal through that barrier.

If you have some semblance of self preservation, you have heal pots and will most likely survive that encounter simply because you are prepared.

They are not in my way at all. I don't sit around waiting for a dedicated healer. Since I don't sit around waiting for a divine, I get what useful buff spells available on a clicky. Even if they were in my group, I don't require them to buff me because that is NOT their job.

Any caster is not a buff bot like you suggested in your previous post.

When did I call a caster a buff bot, where did I imply this? Let define a buff bot to make sure we are using the same definition. To me a buff bot would just be a toon that follows you and all they do is buff you, no attacking, no healing, no pulling switches, or anything. I personally can not read my posts and see where this is even remotely implied. Please do not try to put words in my mouth as I do endeavor to do the same for your arguments.

One question, have you managed to complete raids that are at your level solo. Shroud maybe, it must be wonderful to me a one man raid. You should really post that build I am sure the noobs of DDO would love you for it.

Reread some posts so here we recapp...

500 pots will take up a load of room. I typically start with a full stack of 100 of each type of pot. Do you really think I could in reality carry 500 pots? Do you really think that 500 pots is going to be smaller than 10 scepters. Even if they were a small vial, they will take up a lot of space and that is not including the 300 haste pots, 100 heroism pots(I can get this on clickies,) 100 rage pots, 100 lesser restoration pots, 300 healing pots. I'll also pack 50 of each protection pot so that is another 250 pots.

Ok, since we are going to get this specific, tell me how large is the pot? Do you happen to have their dimensions?

[QUOTE=KillEveryone;3468621
How about having a dozen or so hams? They are not a ham sandwich...they are hams.

A stack of 1000 of each spell component. 1000 hearts of hens is going to take up much more space than 10 scepters.

We do have a finite amount of space. We have 500 slots available in our backpacks. Of those slots, there are limits to stacks.

Ring clickies would actually take up less bag space if this was PnP and we had a bag of holding. I don't think we'd be able to carry much more than a hundred pots. Belts would take up less space...look at a real belt to see how much space they actually occupy.

If you want to play by your rules, you have to limit the number of pots you can carry because you would not be able to carry that much in PnP unless the DM is generous.

Do you actually limit yourself by your rules? If you don't then you are being a bit hypocritical.[/QUOTE]

Yes I do. I even limit myself on spell components, so no I am not a hypocrite.

Now realism.

In a fantasy game. Really? I shoot fireballs and lighting from my hands. I kill critters from a distance with finger of death and phantasmal killer.

Really? Seriously?

We fight devils and orthons that will teleport around the field.

We can teleport around town.

We fight critters that shoot lightening at us.

Realism? Really? Seriously?

We fight beholders and dragons.

We can raise dead.

Realism? Seriously?

This has been answered before, bringing to focus again does not make a point or a productive argument. Though you do seem to be getting a little upset which I am starting to find mildly amusing. Perhaps you should remember this is a game.

Generals and hamstringing themselves.

How do I hamstring myself. I'll grab a group of non self-sufficient people and open on elite right away.

I then use my clickies and show them how the quest gets done while they are ****ing and moaning about not having certain buffs and this shows them the value of being prepared...that includes having clickies with buffs so you don't have to rely on a caster that may not be in a group.

I want to play the game. I'm not going to wait for the perfect group because that is wasting time. If you want to wait around, go ahead.

Once again, glad you don't need anyone it must be truly fun to not need anyone in an mmo on god mode.

--------

I don't want my clickies changed because someone else doesn't like them.

Clear statement, your position has been presented a few times at this point. Though clear not really meaning full at this stage.

Stay out of my backpack.

I was never aware that I was in your back pack. If I was I would fill it full of flowers for your and hope that you would have a better day after seeing it.

They are not game breaking.

There can be an argument for this now as you can solo everything with your clickies.
Also what I see as an abuse of the game mechanics could be considered to be game breaking.

They allow my non-UMD characters to be self sufficient.

There is also a previous post about this, I see it different and have explained so. You simply claim it is so, but I feel you will never consider the other side. Glad you can accept at least one view point.

They allow my caster characters cast a spell that is not available to that particular caster class.

This has been very obvious from the start

They do not make me immortal.

I am glad that you can be killed in game, but if there was a clickie that did make you immortal I feel you would use it.

They allow me to be self sufficient.

Ehhh, this again... I will just say see above.

They allow me to play the game without having to wait for classes that can cast the spell I'd like to have.

From this it is obvious you see this as good, from my position it is obvious to say I think this could be bad, but this is a recap, carry on.

They allow me to NOT IMPOSE upon others blue bars because I'm sure there are people that would like to do other stuff with their blue bar.

You are very polite to consider other people so much, it is very sad that I feel our discussion is becoming less so.

If you don't like clickies, don't use them. Leave mine alone.

I have already given a breif outline of how I play and I have yet to click on one of your clickies. Wonder what feat it is that allows me to use your clickies while they are in your bag. Really, the first statement I have already agreeded to why you insist on repeating it is some what humorous.
The second part of "Leave mine alone" though intresting is irrevelent, tell me how do I get to YOUR clickies? It must be some feat that I don't know about... Oh please won't you share? I think it would be funny for you to be in a quest and then look at your clickies only to see that they have no charges 30 seconds into the quest. It may only be fun for me, but I wonder if you could do it without them.


Please forgive any spelling/language mistakes it is very late here.