Advice needed for Rgr 12 / Rog 7 / Mnk 1

[Sibellya]

I'm working on a TWF build to mess around with. I've come up with a build based on the classic 'Exploiter' but with 6 Ranger levels substituted for Rogue levels. The final split is Rgr 12 / Rog 7 / Mnk 1 and offers the following benefits:
- Evasion and high Reflex save
- full TWF and ranged combat feat lines
- Tempest II for 100% off-hand attacks
- three Favored Enemies with +9 damage
- Assassin I for 5d6+9 sneak attack damage (with +2 to-hit)
- 20% reduced melee hate
- 25% haste boost, +4 damage boost, +5 skill boost and 40% sprint boost
- Wind Stance and fast Handwrap attack speed for skeleton/construct beating
- Wind Stance and Kama proficiency for fast vorpaling with Dream Edges
- decent AC (about 65-70 with gear)
- decent HP (about 450 with gear)
- no-fail Heal scroll usage through UMD
- trap skills

I'm not aiming to make a super-high AC build but I expect that this will have enough AC to make leveling easier (especially when combined with Evasion and high Reflex save). I don't expect this to be a #1 dps build but I think it should be able to contribute meaningfully.

I've chosen to design this build as a Dwarf simply to make use of cheap D-Axes. The build would probably be better as a Human with Khopeshes but I don't plan on spending lots of plat on gearing this guy.

Without further ado, here it is...

Dwarf
Lawful Good
Ranger 12 / Rogue 7 / Monk 1

PROGRESSION

Rogue 1, Monk 2, Ranger 3-14, Rogue 15-20

STATS

STR: 34 (16 + 5 levels + 2 tome + 2 size + 6 item + 3 exceptional)
DEX: 26 (16 + 2 tome + 2 enhancement + 6 item)
CON: 24 (16 + 2 tome + 6 item)
INT: 10 (8 + 2 tome)
WIS: 22 (14 + 2 tome + 6 item)
CHA: 8 (6 + 2 tome)

SKILLS

UMD, DD, Search, Spot, OL, Balance, Jump, Tumble

FEATS

1: Toughness
2: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
3: Mobility
3: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy Undead
6: Spring Attack
7: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy Construct
9: Power Attack
12: Improved Critical Slashing
12: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy Evil Outsider
15: Optional
18: Optional

Optional feats include: Oversized TWF, Quick Draw, Improved Critical Ranged, Zen Archery

ENHANCEMENTS

Rogue Damage Boost III
Rogue Haste Boost III
Ranger Skill Boost IV
Ranger Sprint Boost II
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Racial Toughness II
Ranger Favored Damage III
Ranger Tempest II
Rogue Assassin I
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Improved Hide II
Improved Move Silently II
Ranger Dexterity II

Please critique this build. I am especially looking for advice on two more feats to round it out. Ideas I've been considering include Stunning Blow (don't know if the DC would get high enough to be useful) and Quick Draw (to speed up all those action boosts).

[paan]

Rogue 7 would give an extra d6 or sneak damage.
But Mnk 2 would give you an extra monk feat and an extra save point of save for reflex, will and fort.

[hooblaboo]

I've seen you have put a lot of thought into this build, and it seems to be really well built.

One question on my mind was why you decided to go with 16 dex starting, as the requirement for tempest is minimum 13 dex. I guess it might be useful for +1 reflex and AC, but I couldn't help thinking the possibility of maybe starting with 14 dex, 12 wis to have 18 str at the beginning. Either way it won't make or break the build.

[Sibellya]

Rogue 7 is actually a fair bit more dps than Rogue 6 as it opens up higher tiers of the Sneak Attack and Haste Boost Enhancement lines. This build should have good enough Reflex save as it is and the majority of nasty things that can happen to you on a failed Fort or Will save can be countered by Death Ward and Freedom of Movement. I also don't really need a second Monk feat given that I already have two spare feats I'm trying to choose.

Dropping initial DEX and WIS in favour of STR would give me +1 to-hit and damage at the cost of -2 AC and -1 to Reflex and Will saves. At low levels I think the extra survivability will be more valuable than the extra dps since mobs tend to die pretty quick anyway until the mid-game. That said, it may be worth LR'ing later on to redistribute stats and it's something I would consider once I get a feel for playing this build.

Please keep the suggestions coming

[Jhaeran]

Returning player here, so take everything with a grain of salt:

What is your weapon focus? Slashing, ranged, handwraps? I see you have IC:slash but no focus?

I played around with this a bit, since I wanted a handwraps build..but heard conflicting info on tempest vs handwraps/unarmed. Seems offhand proc may work, but rest of tempest bonuses are not viable.

Seems like a great build...I think I have 2 or 3 versions saved on my builder.

I somewhat landed on a 18F/1Ro/1Mo and started him off...but I've always played some sort of rogue variant and the lack of skills is worrisome, although the kensei line should be nice.

Update the post once you try it out a bit and get it up to ~lvl 10 or so. Not sure on the end game viability (barely made it there with my main) but looking forward to hear more.

[Aerendil]

- Wind Stance and fast Handwrap attack speed for skeleton/construct beating
- Wind Stance and Kama proficiency for fast vorpaling with Dream Edges
- decent AC (about 65-70 with gear)

Please critique this build. I am especially looking for advice on two more feats to round it out. Ideas I've been considering include Stunning Blow (don't know if the DC would get high enough to be useful) and Quick Draw (to speed up all those action boosts).

There's only a few minor things to pick on with this build, so I've quoted the relevant bits. But suffice to say I think the build will work VERY well. 12/7/1 is the new 18/1/1 IMO, although 14/5/1 also works too if you'd prefer to be a bit more Ranger-y.

- regarding the AC, it will still take a LOT to get to that 65-70 range. Chances are you'll be in the 45-55 range for the most part, unless you've already farmed some of the really high end stuff or have the time/energy to farm it on this char. But even 45-55 is worth it IMO. The only time AC isn't useful it seems is in epic.
- wind stance. The important thing to keep in mind here is that wind stance haste does not stack with the Haste spell. So using kamas over, say, d. axes won't have you swinging any faster. You might, however, doublestrike with kamas - so it offers that advantage. But personally I'd forego the kamas and just go with d. axes for vorpalling. At least you're doing fantastic dps until you score a vorpal hit.
As for handwraps, most assuredly use these for slimes or rust monsters (unless you have muckdooms). Huge, huge advantage.

Otherwise, looks good!
As mentioned above, I'd be tempted to drop DEX to 14 and focus more on STR / CON, but up to you. Personal preference here.

[Sibellya]

What is your weapon focus? Slashing, ranged, handwraps? I see you have IC:slash but no focus?

No weapon focus; I don't think I need it as a pre-req for anything? IC:Slash is for the D-Axes, and I'll only be punching undead and constructs so I wasn't going to bother with feats to boost my unarmed.

I probably won't go all-out on gearing for AC but I expect I'll be happy with a quite achievable ~50 AC for most of the game.

I have a pair of Vorpal D-Axes banked so I'll be using those most of the time on trash, but if I do manage to get a couple of Vorpal Dream Edges down the track it will be nice to be able to swing those around. I'll have to try and get a pair of Banishing and Smiting Scimitars too. Now if only Mabar would come around again so I could get the Cloak and Handwraps...

Any suggestions for my final two feats?

[paan]

Any suggestions for my final two feats?

A few random ideas about feats.

I know some people like Sap a lot. Its a good melee based CC attack. It basicly is a no save stun attack. Works great in epics people said.

And of course you cant go wrong with the crowd favourite of getting one ( or few ) more toughness feat.

Quickdraw is arguebly useful, it lowers the downtime of switching weapon sets or triggering action boosts.

Or pickup some range feats, thats a bit usefull when you want to pull out your dusty bow for the occasional multishot dps burst. (Bows makes you uncentered though )

[qwert-y]

I am planning on Tring my human 12ftr/8rgr/2mk build into this tonight and it is making me wet thinking about it. I will stay human as I have a crapsload of the gear I need and khopedshes.

[grodon9999]

This is the highest DPS "Ranger" you can build.

[Sibellya]

I am planning on Tring my human 12ftr/8rgr/2mk build into this tonight and it is making me wet thinking about it. I will stay human as I have a crapsload of the gear I need and khopedshes.

Good to hear someone else is trying this out! I think Human with Khopeshes will be better since I don't really exploit much of the Dwarven racial advantages other than to-hit and damage bonuses with D-Axe.

[Jhaeran]

I am planning on Tring my human 12ftr/8rgr/2mk build into this tonight and it is making me wet thinking about it. I will stay human as I have a crapsload of the gear I need and khopedshes.

How can I get me some of this! 22 Cap! :P

On my horizon are a 12Ra/7Ro/1Mo Dwarf or human handwrap fighter. At some point, I'll try a 12 Fi/7Ro/1Mo for tempest vs kensei.

Dwarven "Prodigy"

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.2
DDO Character Planner Home Page

12Ra_7Ro_1Mo 
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Dwarf Male
(1 Monk \ 7 Rogue \ 12 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 370
Spell Points: 156 
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 19
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            14                    18
Constitution         18                    22
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    31
Bluff                -2                    -1
Concentration         4                    28
Diplomacy            -2                    -1
Disable Device        5                    25
Haggle               -2                    -1
Heal                  0                     1
Hide                  3                     5
Intimidate           -2                    -1
Jump                  7                    29
Listen                4                     6
Move Silently         4                     6
Open Lock             6                     8
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                5                    27
Spot                  4                    24
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                3                     5
Use Magic Device      2                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Ranger)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Dragon


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Ranger)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

vs Dwarf Kensei

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.2
DDO Character Planner Home Page

12F_7Ro_1Mo 
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Dwarf Male
(12 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 7 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 416
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 14
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    26
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    21
Bluff                -2                     3
Concentration         3                    13
Diplomacy            -2                     1
Disable Device        6                    25
Haggle               -2                    -1
Heal                  0                     1
Hide                  5                    10
Intimidate           -2                     1
Jump                  7                    21
Listen                4                     5
Move Silently         6                    11
Open Lock             6                     7
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     3
Search                6                    28
Spot                  4                    23
Swim                  3                     8
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      2                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Kensei Unarmed Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Unarmed Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) II
Enhancement: Fighter Unarmed Specialization I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III

[karl_k0ch]

When I leveled up my 13/6/1 rogue, I had the feeling that the early monk level that I took (at level 4) was hampering my overall progression as I didn't have the gear to benefit from the +AC bonus.

On your build, you will have a low bab on the first few levels. I'd shift the monk level a bit to the later levels, e.g. 1 rog 2-3 ran 4 mnk or even after you get tempest I. Putting in one or two rogues level in between your ranger levels will increase your amount of skill points. But if your build already gets everything it needs with the current progression, there is nothing wrong with getting Tempest II asap.