TWF Evasion UMD 18 Pal/2 Rogue, KotC

[Sorben_Dwarf]

Hi all,

This is my plan for a 36 pt Build and a final gear set. Could use your feedback if you have a sec. I prefer Dwarves, but if you want a human, add 2 cha (1 extra turn, 1 to hit on smites, 1x additional multiplier on LoH, 1 to resists) and healing amp 2, con 1, and str 1 on APs, one extra skill point per level and a feat that will have to be spent for khopeshes, vs the Dwarven +5 save vs all spells (with 6 APs), +2 con, etc racial boosts. There will be a net loss of about 20 hp for the human and no other real difference on stats, barring the Cha change and the addition of DM3.

36 pt Dwarf, 18 Pal / 2 Rogue (Rogue at 1 and 10)


Stats
Base........Stat item..........Level.............APs........Excep.. .......Tome...Total
Str 16...........6...................4................ 0.............3...............3........31

Dex 14...........7..................0................0 .............0...............3........24

Con 17...........6..................0................2 .............1..............3.........29

Int 10............0..................0................ .0............0...............2.........12

Wis 8.............6.................0................. 0.............0..............2..........16

Cha 14...........7.................1.................1 ............3..............3...........29


Stats are odd so that they can be balanced eventually with a +4 tome or (more easily) with a ship buff.

Skills
UMD 23 ranks (+6 shroud, 2 command, 10 cha, 4 gh, 5 seven-fingered, 2 boost, 2 head) = 54

Balance 17 ranks (+7 dex mod, +6 item, + 15 balance item if you have one that fits in the above gear, +4 gh, +5 Dwarf) = 39-54 Balance

Open Locks 6 ranks (+15 item, 7 tools, 2 boost, 4 gh, 2 head, 6 shroud, 7 dex) = 49

(No intimidate on this build. Pure hate if he has to tank, which isn't really the idea--he's a utility/dps/survival paladin)


Equipment
Head--Minos legions, heavy fort + toughness
Neck--epic adherent's pendant + 1 excep str
Eyes--Tharne's goggles: sneak attack +5, search +15, spot +15
Trinket--bloodstone
Cloak--epic mabar, 2 dodge, ethereal, deathblock, nightmare guard, invisible guard, dusk, 5 dr/good
Armor--dragontouched, +5 resists, Corrosive Salt guard, Disintegrate guard
Belt--KoTC set, 6 con, 1ac, (+22 SR for set)
Bracers--conc-opp, 6 wis, 45 hp, +6 con skills (concentration) 10 diplo/haggle
Gloves--epic spectral gloves, 7 dex, +4 to hit, GFL on yellow
Boots--Earthgrab or Lit II with 300 sp and +6 wis/cha skills, or anchor, or FoM
Ring1--KotC, 6 str, 1 excep Cha, (+2 excep str)
Ring2--epic ring of the silver concord, 7 cha, 6 prot, command, +1 excep con on yellow

Usual weapons
Lit 2 dwarven axe with +2 excep Cha
50% heal amp dwarven axe (raise dead click, greater disruption)

Other Weapons
Min 2s with 2 wis and 4 ac for DR breakers (last on the list, due to Holy Sword dwarven axes)
Sever (Tome pages turn in-- for the limp chopper 75% slow on a 20, no fail, no cure, doesn't work on bosses, undead, etc)


HP
~595 as a base (once you add a ship buff for +1 Con), plus rage boosts. Madstone x 2 plus a con yugo pot = 700hp Dwarf.

SP= ~320 as a base

APs...............................Cost
Rogue haste 1...................1
Rogue skills boost 1............1
Dwarven axe damage 2.......2
Unyielding sovereignty........6
Energy of the Templar 2......3
Dwarven spell resistance 3...6
Dwarven Con 2..................6
Racial toughness 3.............6
Paladin toughness 3...........6
KotC 3............................8
Courage of Good 2............3
Bulwark of Good 2.............3
Resistance of Good 2.........3
Extra Lay on Hands 3.........6
Extra Smite 3...................6
Divine Sacrifice 2..............3
Exalted Smite 2................3
Divine Might 3..................6
Paladin Charisma 1............3
Rogue sneak attack accuracy 1....1
Rogue sneak attack damage 1......1

Total: 79 AP (1 left)

Feats:
Toughness
Power Attack
TWF
Imp Crit. Slashing
Ov. TWF
Im TWF
Gr. TWF

In the end, the paladin has only +4 intimidate or diplomacy ranks (choose diplomacy at Rogue level 1 to make for a 36 Diplomacy = 4 gh, 6 shroud, 2 command, 10 cha, 10 conc-opp, 2 boost, 2 head, using just the gear above, which is plenty for most things), but deals quite nice dps, is very survivable, fun to solo or group with, and is very useful with UMD, heal, or raise dead scrolls. The dps is a little less than a rogue or fighter (take into account +6to hit/+6dmg divine favor, the +4 dmg Divine might, and its burst dps with 9-10 smites regenerating at 1x/90 sec), but this build has the Paladin heals, resists, buff, decent hp, etc. benefit.

I'm debating if there wouldn't be a better way to achieve similar ends as this build, perhaps with a different base class at 18. 18 Fighter/2 Rogue would have slightly better dps, but with scroll heals only.

If you go the Devotion 3 (+30% healing spells) route, add the epic adherent's pendant (+50% healing), the healing amp (+50%), and the major healing lore, then you have 230% amp with a 9% crit chance and a 2.5x crit modifier, I believe. That should turn a simple 25hp cure serious into something useful. Scroll healing is still going to be faster, however, which is why Dev is listed as an alternate above.

[k1ngp1n]

Pretty hefty tome requirements... do you have these laying around? Or is this your planned farm?

On my pally I dislike Open Locks and went for Concentration. I actually does help get those 'OH HOLY *BEEEEEEEEEEP!*' scrolls off. I tried it with and without concentration - with won. By a lot.

Change your Conc Opps bracers to hp. In your goggles slot Tharne's. You're already Fear immune - healing lore is useless to a pally for the larges. Feel free to keep the Wiz VI, so it becomes a Wiz 6, +35 hp, +6 Wisdom, +1 CHA Skills, CO bracers.

On a TR3, I would expect you to hit DM4. No exceptions. DM2 is essentially not a pally anymore.

[unbongwah]

Yeah, can you either start base CHA 15 or spare a lvl-up pt for it? That would get you to base CHA 18 and let you take DM3.

[Sorben_Dwarf]

I have a while to get the tomes (at least three more TRs), and it's not that bad. I'd simply buy +2 tomes to all or have them in the bank (already have a couple). I used a full set of +2s on my current Paladin. The +3 will take a little longer. One per 20 Shroud completions, perhaps, although I'll need to cleanse the bracers as well (dropped the air guard goggles for Tharne's).

DM4 isn't reasonably possible on a Dwarven Paladin. If you're doing human, you'll have it on this build (take Improved Recovery 2 instead of Spell Resistance, and recycle the 6 points in Axe Damage into DM4. You'll have three AP left over to put back into Resistance 3 or the like).

I can do DM3 on this build if I drop a level up point from Str into Cha, you're right. Sounds fair enough, since the Str stat is even. Ship buffs FTW. Edited.

Also, going Human or dropping Con by 1 and putting it into Int would allow for ~+20 points into a Concentration score. It's a 20hp loss either way--either go Human and lose 20 hp with -2 Con, or remain a Dwarf and lose 1 Con for having to boost Int to 12 instead. Debating if it's worth it to lose 20hp for Concentration. I had planned to scroll heal mostly while not getting hit (either kiting or after the fight).

For the conc-opp bracers, it's not about the fear so much as the poison immunity. Poison is simply annoying and Neut. Poison seems to get overwritten. I'm just using a clickie for it now, and could keep on doing that. If I did switch the conc-opp to hp, I'd go 45 hp and +6 con skills (=+6 concentration boost), and then lose the air guard goggles for Tharne's. Of course, I suppose I could play WF and have the same Constitution and Cha as a Dwarf, but I'd miss the use of Dwarven axes and would have to free up a feat somewhere--probably Oversized TWF.

Tharne's goggles are quite nice, you're right. The sneak attack bonus would be a nice bit of extra dps. Equipment list updated to include it, even if those goggles are rare and in high demand.

Also, updated the Cha and HP totals a bit, I'd forgotten to add one rank of Racial Toughness and to add the +2 excep Cha off of a Lit II.

By the way, does regular rage stack with Madstone?

[Sorben_Dwarf]

Yeah, can you either start base CHA 15 or spare a lvl-up pt for it? That would get you to base CHA 18 and let you take DM3.

Swapped one point of Str to Cha for that. Knocked off one point of AP Cha to free up the AP. 1 AP remaining. No change in 29 Cha score.

[Sorben_Dwarf]

I suppose the real question is back to Human vs Dwarf, and I suppose it boils down to this comparison.

Human
20 less HP (-1 fort save)
a decent concentration score
Free feat into Khopeshes
1x modifier on LoH
1 more Turn
1 more to resists (balances out to just +1 will, +1 reflex)
20% heal amp (2 ranks of Improved Recovery)
DM4


Dwarf
+20hp
+5 vs all spells and spell-like effects (pretty awesome)
+4 to balance
+2 vs poison
+4 AC vs giants
+1 to hit vs Orcs and Goblins
DM3



Bah. I still say the Dwarf is cooler. Time to check on Half-Elves, but without the free feat there's probably no reason to go that route.

Warforged Route has the same Con and Charisma as a Dwarf, so DM3 and the same hp, but -2 to wisdom, which is irrelevant on this build. The benefit there is immunity to negative levels etc., and the AP is similar (Healer's Friend 2 instead of Improved Recovery 2, for the same price, but your total healing amp will be -45% compared to the human version (= IR2 20%, 50% weapon, 100% normal, 15% past lives) and -25% compared to the dwarven). But on WF, you'll need to pick up a khopesh feat, and to do that you'll have to lose OvTWF (= -2 to hit).

[Sorben_Dwarf]

As I understand it, with the racial +2dmg to axes, there's no significant difference between khopeshes and dwarven axes. DAxes are 2d8 on greensteel, while khopeshes are 1d10 but twice the crit range.

[shadow_419]

And an even bigger crit range with exhalted smite

[unbongwah]

As I understand it, with the racial +2dmg to axes, there's no significant difference between khopeshes and dwarven axes.

That may be true for other melee builds, but paladins are more dependent on their crit range than others in order to get some of their abilities to proc more often (Exalted Smite Evil, Divine Sacrifice). IIRC, Junts has said dwarf paladin w/DAxes is pretty much the worst combo for a paladin and I'm inclined to believe his word.

[Sorben_Dwarf]

I'll have to drown my sorrows in a Dwarven pub before I go Human at some point. I'll wait until the 3rd Paladin life. I want to try out Warforged next and see how it goes, and I'm working on the Dwarf now. I'll pick among the three races for the 4th life.

[lord_of_rage]

Human and kopesh will do more dps. Youll also have more str. With a 2 lvl splash DM4 is not possible. It requires paladin lvl 20. Honestly if you plan a 36 point build go half orc. Youll get +2 str over human and pa3. Evasion is nice but I prefer the dps of a pure paladin with the capstone. Ive run the 18/2 rogue. They can be fun and heal scrolls are great but for survivability the 18p2m self healing build via torc and conc opp is much much better.

[Sorben_Dwarf]

Honestly if you plan a 36 point build go half orc. Youll get +2 str over human and pa3.

Hmm, could try that as a pure. Back to plate armor, etc. And they do have the haka.

I'd have to lose OvTWF for Khopesh feat on that still.

[lord_of_rage]

Hmm, could try that as a pure. Back to plate armor, etc. And they do have the haka.

I'd have to lose OvTWF for Khopesh feat on that still.

Honestly Id say play the build up. You plan on tring anyway. So enjoy it and find what works for you. You can keep the robes. Your ac will be useless anyway. So at that point its all looks or what the armor does.But have fun with the build and find your groove with it.