The best all-around method of clonk melee damage

[CrankVulcan]

If you are going for #1 then DPS is pretty important and handwraps offers the best damage potential of the options.

Well what about for less of melee/caster viewpoint as much as a straight up killer/survivalist. When comparing fists and staves, is the difference MASSIVE? Like double? or is it like 20% more damage? whats the comparison between unarmed and quarterstaff when no feats are invested?

Another thought when it comes to survivability....what's the difference in attack speed in the two attack forms? It might matter when FoL is involved. Obviously unarmed with TWF is going to be faster...but how much faster?

Also consider the huge stat investment to get to a 17 base dex for Itwf...

[Arlathen]

Just to answer the original question:
the staff is pretty well garbage compared to the fists. You just get so much more damage out of the wraps!
Feat investment is a small problem - but not massive:
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PAttack, Toughness, Quicken, Extend, Empower Heal, Maximise
You can fit in Empower with a human (makes for nice BBs).
Spell Pen will be down slightly - but that's not insurmountable.

The Quarterstaff as a weapon is not 'Garbage' compared to fists - please qualify this argument. I'll explain my personal point of view below.

I think there are two kinds of Clonks

1. Those that want to beat up monsters
2. Those that want evasion on their healer (but may fight at times for fun)

If you are going for #1 then DPS is pretty important and handwraps offers the best damage potential of the options. This is especially true if you are going to run Tower of Despair since you can get pretty easily make a holy burst ring and use mettaline hand-wraps for boss beating. The attack rate will trump the extra damage on the quarterstaff quite easily if you have only two of the TWF feats.

If #2 is your aim its a bit more of a toss up. I'm not buying the "lets you have less dex" argument much as your reflex save is important on Clonk and your AC is probably important to you and both are dex driven. IF you aren't taking advantage of that stuff and you aren't interested in DPS, why take the monk levels at all? I think the better argument for quarterstaff is you want to use all your feats for casting and the monk bonus feats for toughness. Quarterstaff is your best option if you want to not invest feats. If you are investing feats, go with TWF feats and use fists for damage, kamas for vorpal.

I think it may be possible to do a half orc clonk where staff makes more sense but I suspect in utility and DPS it won't match TWF styles at higher levels. At lower levels, the staff likely wins.

I think your missing something if your not balancing both having DPS Output and 'a cleric with evasion' when building a Clonk. It can do both equally very well.

Just dumping to no feats and Quarterstaff is a bad idea, as is just defaulting to Fists for 'DPS'. Again, I'll try and explain this below.

Also, the 'Dex as dump stat' is entirely viable, depending on race choice, enhancements, equipment etc etc. My Drow Clonk with Base 10 Dex did 'ok' if not spectacular with evasion. My newer Half-Elf version can achieve a much better Reflex now, at +5 with the Paladin Dilletante. Thats also +5 Fort/Will as an aside.

Well what about for less of melee/caster viewpoint as much as a straight up killer/survivalist. When comparing fists and staves, is the difference MASSIVE? Like double? or is it like 20% more damage? whats the comparison between unarmed and quarterstaff when no feats are invested?

Another thought when it comes to survivability....what's the difference in attack speed in the two attack forms? It might matter when FoL is involved. Obviously unarmed with TWF is going to be faster...but how much faster?

Also consider the huge stat investment to get to a 17 base dex for Itwf...

This all comes down to Unarmed Fighting vs. Quarterstaffs. I'll put my case together later and post back.

[CrankVulcan]

This all comes down to Unarmed Fighting vs. Quarterstaffs. I'll put my case together later and post back.

I agree. I understand why kamas are "garbage" when it comes to melee. But I don't see that in the quarterstaff. There are a number of nice named quarterstaves for melee AND casting....combine the melee ones with power attack and a 1.5x str. bonus, and I can only imagine the dps would be acceptable to say the least.

Cant wait to here your "case" later.

[TPICKRELL]

Not a clonk, but helping my wife think through some options as she levels hers.

She's leaning towards a healing clonk who can fight and can be in close. I've not played one, but on paper it looks to me like the clonk could be a great asset by not focusing on personal DPS, but instead focusing on attack effects rather than straight damage.

For example, destruction/improved destruction, vorpals, paras, stat damage, stone prison... whatever works on the particular mob you are hitting.

With this line of thinking, attack speed is the king, so hand wraps with the flurry of blows speed boost would be the obvious winner except where the desired effect is not available on wraps (vorpals, tendon slice, limb chop...)

[AtomicMew]

I agree. I understand why kamas are "garbage" when it comes to melee. But I don't see that in the quarterstaff. There are a number of nice named quarterstaves for melee AND casting....combine the melee ones with power attack and a 1.5x str. bonus, and I can only imagine the dps would be acceptable to say the least.

Cant wait to here your "case" later.

The fact that there are good casting qstaffs doesn't really matter, because a fist clonk can use them just as well as a qstaff clonk.

But I agree, can't wait to here his case for qstaffs.

Just thinking out loud (could be far off base):

Handwraps are (base + 1x STR + bonus damage + 5 PA) * (1.8 GTWF) + (1.8x procs)

Staffs are (base + 1.5x STR + bonus damage + 10 PA) * (1.75x glancing blows) + (1x procs)

...And I still have no idea. Obviously, if you add enough bonus damage and enough procs, handwraps will have better DPS on paper... but staffs have a higher crit mod which will push it back up when dealing with autocrits in epics.

Also, I think another BIG advantage to qstaffs that isn't reflected in the numbers, is the larger range. If the raw DPS turns out to be a ~10% difference, I would easily choose qstaffs.

[Arlathen]

A numeric comparison of Quarterstaff vs. Unarmed for the Average Clonk Build

Ok, Here's what I've found by looking into the numbers side of Quarterstaff vs. Unarmed Attacks.

Spreadsheet Link Here

Assumptions (Theres a lot!)

Unarmed Clonk: Str, Dex, Con and Wis based character
Quarterstaff: Str, Con, Wis and Cha based character

Strength: Strength is assumed as 26 for both characters. A Moderate amount in hindsight, but one that shows a more average players likely ending strength score.

Criticals: It is assumed that neither character has improved critical for there respective weapon or chosen fighting style. A case could be made for Rahls Might, but at thus stage I've left absolute weapons out. This allows for a better direct comparison of the fighting styles.

Magical Effects 1: Base Weapons: In the initial Case Scenarios, a +5 Weapon / +5 Holy Burst weapon of Pure Good is assumed.

Magical Effects 2: ToD Rings: To be fair to unarmed fighting potential, I have included a late game scenario where dual ToD rings with Holy Burst and Shocking Burst has been crafted to improve damage output. A Quarterstaff based monk would spend the same time farming and crafting, but possibly for other Clonk related effects (Greater Devotion 8, Exc. Str +2 or Exc. Wis +2 are all possibilities).

Divine Might: Due to the high base attribute required, the Unarmed fighter is assumed to only achieve at best Divine Might rank 1 for +2 Damage. The Quarterstaff fighter is assumed to achieve Divine Might rank 3 for +6 damage.

Greensteel: I have not included a Greensteel weapon for Quarterstaff fighting, in this first round. Again, this is to leave out explicit weapon case scenarions to give a better feel for unarmed style vs. quarterstaff style.

Speed: Speed of Attack is ignored. These damage calculations work over amount of damage generated from a set number of swings. Although there is an argument for the speed improvement of unarmed attacks versus weaponed two weapon fighting, Quarterstaff swings faster than other equivalent THF weapons. For the purposes of calculating damage over set number swings, this is ignored.

Glancing Blows: The initial set of calculations assumes Glancing Blows generated against main target only. Later calculations may include case scenarions where more than one target is within range.


Formula Discussions

No. of Attacks: The Case scenarions are worked out over a series of 20 attack. The first attack is assumed an automatic miss, while the 20th attack is assumed a confirmed critical attack as both unarmed and quarterstaff fighting share the same 20/x2 critical hit profile.

Offhand Hand Attacks: Offhand attacks are assumed the Unarmed fighter has the full Two Weapon Fighting chain, and thus strikes at 80% efficiency (16 attack out of 20).

Glancing Blows: Glancing Blows are calculated on the 1st, 3rd and 4th attacks, ie 75% efficiency (15 attacks out of 20).

Chance to Hit: Chance to hit is taken as hitting enemy mob on 2+, and thus the first main attack is calculated as an automatic miss. Offhand and Glancing Blow attacks are all calculated as hitting but not causing any critical hits.



Calculation Obversations

Strength: Strength applies at 1x on a main hand attack and at 1.0x on the offhand attack. Combined, this is a total 2.0x modifier to strength when both a Main Hand attack and Offhand attack is delivered. For THF, Strenght counts at 1.5x on the main attack. As strength is factored into the base damage amount, this means that strength is applied at 0.75x on the Glancing Blow. Thus Strenght is actually applied at 2.25x when both a main hand attack and glancing blow attack are delivered.

Power Attack: Despite the gain of 2x PA Damage for THF, The same amount of damage applies to an offhand attack for unarmed fighting. However, PA Damage also applies to the base damage amount, and thus GTHF Glancing Blow receives 50% of this applied damage. Thus, PA counts 2x for TWF and 2.5x for THF when both an Offhand or Glancing Blow are delivered.

Divine Might: Again, Divine Might applies to the base damage roll of both the Mainhand and Offhand attacks when TWF. THF also count Divine Might into the base main hand damage, and thus TWF counts Divine Might 2x and and THF counts Divine Might 1.5x when both an Offhand or Glancing Blow is rolled.

Divine Favour: DF counts at base +3 to damage for both a Mainhand attack and for an offhand attack in the TWF style, and thus counts at 2x when both attacks are delivered. For THF, the Divine Favour bonus is counted as a base damage modifier, and thus 0.5x damage of DF is applied to Glancing Blows. DF thus counts at 1.5x for THF when both a main hand attack and a glancing blow is delivered.


Case Scenarios

1) +5 Weapon, Power Attack, Strength 26

Unarmed DPS: 744 total
Quarterstaff DPS: 854 Total
Percentage Difference: Quarterstaff leads by 15% over unarmed

The initial scenario pits justs the basics against each other here: a normal +5 Weapon, Strength, Power Attack and base weapon damage itself. Averaged out with offhand attacks and Glancing Blows vs. a single target the Quarterstaff wins out. This is due to the hidden influence of Strength and Power Attack on the Glancing Blow damage.

2) As Case Scenario 1 - Weapon upgraded to +5 Holy Burst of Pure Good

Unarmed DPS: 1152
Quarterstaff: 1084
Percentage Difference: Unarmed leads by 6%

Static linear factors such as average damage from magical effects work in significant favour of unarmed attacks. Glancing Blows work well with increases to base damage - additional effects will benefit unarmed TWF much more. As a simple mathematical multiplier, each magical effect improves TWF by 2x while it only improves THF at 1.09x (counted as 1.1x in the spreadsheet for ease of representation).

3) As Case Scenario 2 - Divine Favour and Divine Might integrated

Unarmed DPS: 1323
Quarterstaff: 1336
Percentage Difference: Negligible


This scenario again highlights the increasing fact base damage increases really influence the Quarterstaff numbers. This is perhaps the most 'optimal' scenario a Clonk will experience, outside of Raid loot and ToD rings. And its a dead heat, pretty much.

One significant factor in the calculation cannot be overlooked however - this situations are calculated using with only a single main target and thus only 1 Glancing Blow being produced per swing. With more targets in Range, Glancing Blows produce significantly more DPS (will look into actual numbers later).

4) As Case Scenario 3 - ToD Rings with Holy Burst and Shocking Burst integrated

Unarmed DPS: 1667
Quarterstaff DPS: 1336.5 (Unchanged from Case 3).
Percentage Difference: Unarmed leads by around ~24%

So once your all geared up with ToD rings, Unarmed strips ahead by 24% give or take. The only way in this situation for Quarterstaff fighting to keep up is to produce more glancing blows, which means standing in bigger packs of mobs - doable, depending on your Clonk build.


Overall Conclusion

In all in all, if you are fully raid equipped and willing to sacrifice your ToD Rings slots to melee magical effect damage, then Unarmed is the choice in single target DPS situations. This also assumes you are fighting mobs fully susceptible to your magical effects attacks.

If you want better base damage numbers with the potential of larger damage versus greater enemy mobs, or if you want to spend your ToD Ring Slots on exceptional stats or Greater Devotion VIII, then Quarterstaff is your choice.

I think I'll go away and look at specific weapon situations. It's obvious to me now that a Rahls Might isn't the greatest weapon of choice when comparing with the possibilities of unarmed fighting. Despite its D10 base damage and x3 Critical multiplier, there isnt enough critical action in a Clonk build to warrant this as a weapon choice outside of Epic trash beating. That said, I think this is one of the better staff I would want for beating down an Epic Trash mob, and glancing blows would be stellar in a pack of Held Mobs as well. An Unspressed Dreamspitter also make this list here, but more for the level draining aspect on auto crits.

Glancing Blow analysis is warranted. It fairly easy to farm a group of Mobs together to better utilise Glancing Blows.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

A numeric comparison of Quarterstaff vs. Unarmed for the Average Clonk Build

Ok, Here's what I've found by looking into the numbers side of Quarterstaff vs. Unarmed Attacks.

Spreadsheet Link Here

Assumptions (Theres a lot!)

Unarmed Clonk: Str, Dex, Con and Wis based character
Quarterstaff: Str, Con, Wis and Cha based character

Strength: Strength is assumed as 26 for both characters. A Moderate amount in hindsight, but one that shows a more average players likely ending strength score.

Criticals: It is assumed that neither character has improved critical for there respective weapon or chosen fighting style. A case could be made for Rahls Might, but at thus stage I've left absolute weapons out. This allows for a better direct comparison of the fighting styles.

Magical Effects 1: Base Weapons: In the initial Case Scenarios, a +5 Weapon / +5 Holy Burst weapon of Pure Good is assumed.

Magical Effects 2: ToD Rings: To be fair to unarmed fighting potential, I have included a late game scenario where dual ToD rings with Holy Burst and Shocking Burst has been crafted to improve damage output. A Quarterstaff based monk would spend the same time farming and crafting, but possibly for other Clonk related effects (Greater Devotion 8, Exc. Str +2 or Exc. Wis +2 are all possibilities).

Divine Might: Due to the high base attribute required, the Unarmed fighter is assumed to only achieve at best Divine Might rank 1 for +2 Damage. The Quarterstaff fighter is assumed to achieve Divine Might rank 3 for +6 damage.

Greensteel: I have not included a Greensteel weapon for Quarterstaff fighting, in this first round. Again, this is to leave out explicit weapon case scenarions to give a better feel for unarmed style vs. quarterstaff style.

Speed: Speed of Attack is ignored. These damage calculations work over amount of damage generated from a set number of swings. Although there is an argument for the speed improvement of unarmed attacks versus weaponed two weapon fighting, Quarterstaff swings faster than other equivalent THF weapons. For the purposes of calculating damage over set number swings, this is ignored.

Glancing Blows: The initial set of calculations assumes Glancing Blows generated against main target only. Later calculations may include case scenarions where more than one target is within range.


Formula Discussions

No. of Attacks: The Case scenarions are worked out over a series of 20 attack. The first attack is assumed an automatic miss, while the 20th attack is assumed a confirmed critical attack as both unarmed and quarterstaff fighting share the same 20/x2 critical hit profile.

Offhand Hand Attacks: Offhand attacks are assumed the Unarmed fighter has the full Two Weapon Fighting chain, and thus strikes at 80% efficiency (16 attack out of 20).

Glancing Blows: Glancing Blows are calculated on the 1st, 3rd and 4th attacks, ie 75% efficiency (15 attacks out of 20).

Chance to Hit: Chance to hit is taken as hitting enemy mob on 2+, and thus the first main attack is calculated as an automatic miss. Offhand and Glancing Blow attacks are all calculated as hitting but not causing any critical hits.



Calculation Obversations

Strength: Strength applies at 1x on a main hand attack and at 0.5x on the offhand attack. Combined, this is a total 1.5x modifier to strength when both a Main Hand attack and Offhand attack is delivered. For THF, Strenght counts at 1.5x on the main attack. As strength is factored into the base damage amount, this means that strength is applied at 0.75x on the Glancing Blow. Thus Strenght is actually applied at 2.25x when both a main hand attack and glancing blow attack are delivered.

Power Attack: Despite the gain of 2x PA Damage for THF, The same amount of damage applies to an offhand attack for unarmed fighting. However, PA Damage also applies to the base damage amount, and thus GTHF Glancing Blow receives 50% of this applied damage. Thus, PA counts 2x for TWF and 2.5x for THF when both an Offhand or Glancing Blow are delivered.

Divine Might: Again, Divine Might applies to the base damage roll of both the Mainhand and Offhand attacks when TWF. THF also count Divine Might into the base main hand damage, and thus TWF counts Divine Might 2x and and THF counts Divine Might 1.5x when both an Offhand or Glancing Blow is rolled.

Divine Favour: DF counts at base +3 to damage for both a Mainhand attack and for an offhand attack in the TWF style, and thus counts at 2x when both attacks are delivered. For THF, the Divine Favour bonus is counted as a base damage modifier, and thus 0.5x damage of DF is applied to Glancing Blows. DF thus counts at 1.5x for THF when both a main hand attack and a glancing blow is delivered.


Case Scenarios

1) +5 Weapon, Power Attack, Strength 26

Unarmed DPS: 744 total
Quarterstaff DPS: 854 Total
Percentage Difference: Quarterstaff leads by 15% over unarmed

The initial scenario pits justs the basics against each other here: a normal +5 Weapon, Strength, Power Attack and base weapon damage itself. Averaged out with offhand attacks and Glancing Blows vs. a single target the Quarterstaff wins out. This is due to the hidden influence of Strength and Power Attack on the Glancing Blow damage.

2) As Case Scenario 1 - Weapon upgraded to +5 Holy Burst of Pure Good

Unarmed DPS: 1152
Quarterstaff: 1084
Percentage Difference: Unarmed leads by 6%

Static linear factors such as average damage from magical effects work in significant favour of unarmed attacks. Glancing Blows work well with increases to base damage - additional effects will benefit unarmed TWF much more. As a simple mathematical multiplier, each magical effect improves TWF by 2x while it only improves THF at 1.09x (counted as 1.1x in the spreadsheet for ease of representation).

3) As Case Scenario 2 - Divine Favour and Divine Might integrated

Unarmed DPS: 1323
Quarterstaff: 1336
Percentage Difference: Negligible


This scenario again highlights the increasing fact base damage increases really influence the Quarterstaff numbers. This is perhaps the most 'optimal' scenario a Clonk will experience, outside of Raid loot and ToD rings. And its a dead heat, pretty much.

One significant factor in the calculation cannot be overlooked however - this situations are calculated using with only a single main target and thus only 1 Glancing Blow being produced per swing. With more targets in Range, Glancing Blows produce significantly more DPS (will look into actual numbers later).

4) As Case Scenario 3 - ToD Rings with Holy Burst and Shocking Burst

Unarmed DPS: 1667
Quarterstaff DPS: 1336.5 (Unchanged from Case 3).
Percentage Difference: Unarmed leads by around ~24%

So once your all geared up with ToD rings, Unarmed strips ahead by 24% give or take. The only way in this situation for Quarterstaff fighting to keep up is to produce more glancing blows, which means standing in bigger packs of mobs - doable, depending on your Clonk build.


Overall Conclusion

In all in all, if you are fully raid equipped and willing to sacrifice your ToD Rings slots to melee magical effect damage, then Unarmed is the choice in single target DPS situations. This also assumes you are fighting mobs fully susceptible to your magical effects attacks.

If you want better base damage numbers with the potential of larger damage versus greater enemy mobs, or if you want to spend your ToD Ring Slots on exceptional stats or Greater Devotion VIII, then Quarterstaff is your choice.

I think I'll go away and look at specific weapon situations. It's obvious to me now that a Rahls Might isn't the greatest weapon of choice when comparing with the possibilities of unarmed fighting. Despite its D10 base damage and x3 Critical multiplier, there isnt enough critical action in a Clonk build to warrant this as a weapon choice outside of Epic trash beating. That said, I think this is one of the better staff I would want for beating down an Epic Trash mob, and glancing blows would be stellar in a pack of Held Mobs as well. An Unspressed Dreamspitter also make this list here, but more for the level draining aspect on auto crits.

Glancing Blow analysis is warranted. It fairly easy to farm a group of Mobs together to better utilise Glancing Blows.

Great Post but a few other sources of damages you did not include:

1. You listed STR being applied at 0.5 on offhand attacks for handwraps - you get full STR mod on offhand strikes for handwraps, not 0.5 like most weapons, this should have a fairly significant impact on your calculations. (EDIT: I looked at the spreadsheet, and I think you did calculate it as full but your post says 0.5, can you clarify?)

2. You mentioned TOD rings, but did not do a calculation for them, and yet this is one of the larger sources of unarmed damage. (EDIT: This is incorrect.)

3. Sneak attack, if any - but many people roll halfling clonks, is applied on a per hit basis, not suggesting you do a calculation on this, but it deserves to be mentioned.

4. Ki strikes, can also proc on offhand attacks. Earth ki strike is +4 damage.

5. You can fight in wind stance for an additional 10% offhand rate.

6. if you are a 17/3 and you have fol you heal more, and gen more ki for finishers with more attacks - meaning more ki strikes, like the earth finisher for a x4 crit. (This would also be a huge pain to calculate - not asking you to, but again it deserves to be mentioned.)

So that said, I agree that the glancing blows thing is huge - especially if you are standing in your blade barrier fighting 10+ mobs getting those glancing blows.

I know that on my character though, things die faster when I use handwraps. The attack speed was not calculated, and I understand why - it would be a bit of a pain, but the fact of the matter is that it is important and to not do it invalidates the entire spreadsheet, because I would be willing to hazard that handwraps attack speed are at least 10-15% faster than a quarterstaff's.

Again though solid effort, if you can find a way to incorporate attack speed into it, i think it would be an awesome tool to reference in future discussions.

+1. but another +1 when you do it right - with attack speed! (EDIT: Didn't realize you had rep turned off... LOL!)

[CrankVulcan]

Ok, Here's what I've found by looking into the numbers side of Quarterstaff vs. Unarmed Attacks.

Awesome job dude, thanks for shining up my thread.

I do have question tho....

Did you consider ToD rings and handwraps vs. a greensteel staff? I can't tell if it would keep up or not but the extra effects and higher base damage might end up helping a little(?).

Once again Ariathen, thank you very much

[sigtrent]

Its a good effort Arlathen but the primary reason why unarmed is so good is the attack speed which is a fair bit faster than any other combat style. It also tends to win long run based on additional attacks and is more versatile for weapon effects like vorpal, disruption etc...

I do think your work goes a long way to saying that quarterstaff is viable and a decent choice to make. I certainly find at low levels its often preferable on a DPS oriented monk.

[Arlathen]

Great Post but a few other sources of damages you did not include:

1. You listed STR being applied at 0.5 on offhand attacks for handwraps - you get full STR mod on offhand strikes for handwraps, not 0.5 like most weapons, this should have a fairly significant impact on your calculations. (EDIT: I looked at the spreadsheet, and I think you did calculate it as full but your post says 0.5, can you clarify?)

2. You mentioned TOD rings, but did not do a calculation for them, and yet this is one of the larger sources of unarmed damage. (EDIT: This is incorrect.)

3. Sneak attack, if any - but many people roll halfling clonks, is applied on a per hit basis, not suggesting you do a calculation on this, but it deserves to be mentioned.

4. Ki strikes, can also proc on offhand attacks. Earth ki strike is +4 damage.

5. You can fight in wind stance for an additional 10% offhand rate.

6. if you are a 17/3 and you have fol you heal more, and gen more ki for finishers with more attacks - meaning more ki strikes, like the earth finisher for a x4 crit. (This would also be a huge pain to calculate - not asking you to, but again it deserves to be mentioned.)

So that said, I agree that the glancing blows thing is huge - especially if you are standing in your blade barrier fighting 10+ mobs getting those glancing blows.

I know that on my character though, things die faster when I use handwraps. The attack speed was not calculated, and I understand why - it would be a bit of a pain, but the fact of the matter is that it is important and to not do it invalidates the entire spreadsheet, because I would be willing to hazard that handwraps attack speed are at least 10-15% faster than a quarterstaff's.

Again though solid effort, if you can find a way to incorporate attack speed into it, i think it would be an awesome tool to reference in future discussions.

+1. but another +1 when you do it right - with attack speed! (EDIT: Didn't realize you had rep turned off... LOL!)

Seems the Cleric forum thread has descended into Trolldom, and since this thread has garnered a few actually sensible comments I'll respond to them here.

1. To clarify, the figures in the Case Scenarios and on the spreadsheet use the full strength modifier for the offhand attack. So yeah, my bad but its properly calculated. I'll update the first post.

2. As stated on your edit, Case Scenario 4 uses a pair of ToD rings - Holy Burst and Shocking Burst. It massively increases the DPS on Unarmed, attack speed aside.

3. I didnt include Sneak attack at this stage as I didnt consider it in all honesty. For Halflings, clearly Unarmed benefits from there Sneak Attack bonuses better - Sneak Attack would apply on both attacks, while Glancing Blows would not benefit from the bonus at all. I may factor in these bonuses is I can find the enthusiasm to go over the spreadsheet again after the trolldom of the Cleric thread.

However, I would say Human would be the top choice for Clonks, simply for the extra feat. Half-Elves Clonks are much better served by taking Paladin Dill if they can find the Charisma to round out the full +5 to all saves. That just my opinion though.

4. Ki Strikes can indeed Proc on Offhand attacks - I rarely use them on my Clonk, I find I'm better served using Light attacks for Healing Curse/Finisher.

However, for the sake of clarity, Earth Ki Strike would apply at 2x for the Unarmed attacks, and at 1.5x for Quarterstaff fighting - Earth attacks add to the base damage and thus Glancing blows benefit.

For the other elemental strikes, they apply at 2x for Unarmed attacks, and at 1.09x for Glancing Blows. Thus again, additional Magical Effects favour the unarmed fighting.

However, due to cool down and player skill, we can't have a Ki Strike reliably represented in the spreadsheet over twenty swings - theres the cooldown to consider and also Ki costs. For simplicity, I will assume Ki is purely used for Light strikes that benefit the Clonk healing output and don't (*generally - undead excepted*) affect DPS.

5. Wind Stance doesnt affect Offhand percentages. It gives an Enhancement bonus to Attack rate (same type as Haste) and also a small chance to Double strike. At 2.5% chance for base Windstance, double strike doesn't factor into the 20 swing calculation cleanly. A minimum of 25 attacks would have to be sampled to receive the bonus of 1 double strike attack.

That said, the double strike would apply equally to Unarmed or Quarterstaff fighting. As Doublestrike doesnt apply to offhand attacks or to glancing blows, then both forms of style would be affected at the same percentage rates.

6. Appreciate it has to be mentioned, but this is where a little common sense has to prevail. Generally, most trash mobs are dead by the 3-4th swing if TWF, or the 4-5 swing if THF. There isn't enough hits delivered to generate the Ki potential to power both FoL and Healing Ki finisher, and then drop Earth attacks as well for an Earth finisher. Much better to narrow your play here and restrict yourself to 'Lighting Up' an enemy on the first strike with Healing Curse, and then finish off a Healing Ki move after the third mob is dead.

Boss fighting is different of course - you have time to build Ki and repeatedly hit Earth finishers.

Many Thanks for posting a sensible reply - hope this gives fair comment back to you.

[Arlathen]

Awesome job dude, thanks for shining up my thread.

I do have question tho....

Did you consider ToD rings and handwraps vs. a greensteel staff? I can't tell if it would keep up or not but the extra effects and higher base damage might end up helping a little(?).

Once again Ariathen, thank you very much

Arlathen says your welcome

I did consider ToD Rings in Case Scenario 4 in my Post. It's obvious this is a massive amount of DPS potential for unarmed attacks, and it would be completely unfair to Unarmed attacks to not include this in the first round of numbers.

As stated in my Post, where weapons are even and attributes distributed sensibly, the usually chosen ToD rings will raise Unarmed DPS approx. 24% above Quarterstaff fighting in Single target situations.

Where Quarterstaff obviously will win out is in multiple opponent situations - the more opponents you throw at a Clonk with a Quarterstaff, the better the melee damage output will be. I might look into the necessary numbers for Quarterstaff fighting to exceed ToD Ring equipped unarmed.

As for Greensteel, this would obviously improve Quarterstaff fighting numbers significantly. However, in the interest of trying to compare like for like as far as possible, Greensteel was left out at this point.

[Arlathen]

Its a good effort Arlathen but the primary reason why unarmed is so good is the attack speed which is a fair bit faster than any other combat style. It also tends to win long run based on additional attacks and is more versatile for weapon effects like vorpal, disruption etc...

I do think your work goes a long way to saying that quarterstaff is viable and a decent choice to make. I certainly find at low levels its often preferable on a DPS oriented monk.

I'll concede the Attack Speed issue - it needs looking at, absolutely.

In all fairness, this is a comparison on damage output - I'd be the first person to say ditch the Quarterstaff and go Wind stance & Kama for Vorpalling, or unarmed for Banishing/Smiting/Disruption etc.

I just firmly believe that if operated in the right manner, a Quarterstaff Clonk can compete well with Unarmed, and bring something different to the mix other than TWF.

[voodoogroves]

The single biggest advantage to choosing the staff is the 3 feats + dex you'll save.


Your melee DPS will be lower, at the core. Your other capabilities should be stronger. What can you put in with those 3 feats?

[wax_on_wax_off]

1.5x Divine Might Bonus - As DM adds to base damage, it improves Glancing blow damage as well at the same rate if you have Greater Two Handed Fighting

While DM certainly adds to glancing blows it won't give 1.5x for THF afaik. I'm fairly certain that it simply adds +2/4/6/8 damage which favours TWF.

I've come to the conclusion that a strength based cleric without uber gear won't have the SP pool to raid heal without excessive use of resources.

The question for my clonk is comparing the DPS of rapiers vs handwraps for a drow being a 18/2 or 18/2/1 fighter or 18/3 finesse build.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Divine Might: Due to the high base attribute required, the Unarmed fighter is assumed to only achieve at best Divine Might rank 1 for +2 Damage. The Quarterstaff fighter is assumed to achieve Divine Might rank 3 for +6 damage.

Divine Might: Again, Divine Might applies to the base damage roll of both the Mainhand and Offhand attacks when TWF. THF also count Divine Might into the base main hand damage, and thus TWF counts Divine Might 2x and and THF counts Divine Might 1.5x when both an Offhand or Glancing Blow is rolled.

This is incorrect as I have just tested, DM just gives +2/4/6/8 damage without any influence from fighting style. Therefore, TWF benefits from it vastly more than THF and when I roll a clonk I want to attain at least DMII.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

While DM certainly adds to glancing blows it won't give 1.5x for THF afaik. I'm fairly certain that it simply adds +2/4/6/8 damage which favours TWF.

I've come to the conclusion that a strength based cleric without uber gear won't have the SP pool to raid heal without excessive use of resources.

The question for my clonk is comparing the DPS of rapiers vs handwraps for a drow being a 18/2 or 18/2/1 fighter or 18/3 finesse build.

Not trolling or anything, but I would appreciate it if you would view my build then, and tell me if you still hold to that statement - because I honestly do not know, and if you are right then I need to adjust my build accordingly.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=290046

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Seems the Cleric forum thread has descended into Trolldom, and since this thread has garnered a few actually sensible comments I'll respond to them here.

1. To clarify, the figures in the Case Scenarios and on the spreadsheet use the full strength modifier for the offhand attack. So yeah, my bad but its properly calculated. I'll update the first post.

2. As stated on your edit, Case Scenario 4 uses a pair of ToD rings - Holy Burst and Shocking Burst. It massively increases the DPS on Unarmed, attack speed aside.

3. I didnt include Sneak attack at this stage as I didnt consider it in all honesty. For Halflings, clearly Unarmed benefits from there Sneak Attack bonuses better - Sneak Attack would apply on both attacks, while Glancing Blows would not benefit from the bonus at all. I may factor in these bonuses is I can find the enthusiasm to go over the spreadsheet again after the trolldom of the Cleric thread.

Also keep in mind that half-elves can get sneak attack damage as well, not to mention many pieces of gear.

However, I would say Human would be the top choice for Clonks, simply for the extra feat. Half-Elves Clonks are much better served by taking Paladin Dill if they can find the Charisma to round out the full +5 to all saves. That just my opinion though.

My 17/3 clonk has 0 build points invested into Cha. But then I went human, the feat is too much to pass up.

4. Ki Strikes can indeed Proc on Offhand attacks - I rarely use them on my Clonk, I find I'm better served using Light attacks for Healing Curse/Finisher.

However, for the sake of clarity, Earth Ki Strike would apply at 2x for the Unarmed attacks, and at 1.5x for Quarterstaff fighting - Earth attacks add to the base damage and thus Glancing blows benefit.

For the other elemental strikes, they apply at 2x for Unarmed attacks, and at 1.09x for Glancing Blows. Thus again, additional Magical Effects favour the unarmed fighting.

However, due to cool down and player skill, we can't have a Ki Strike reliably represented in the spreadsheet over twenty swings - theres the cooldown to consider and also Ki costs. For simplicity, I will assume Ki is purely used for Light strikes that benefit the Clonk healing output and don't (*generally - undead excepted*) affect DPS.

I will typically do the same, but since I fight in sun stance and save my ki for when i need it, its not uncommon for me to run into a high priority target and shoot off fire, lightning, earth, fire, lightning, earth until its dead or I am out of ki. That plus human versatility gives me some extra burst dps. I also understand that there is really no representing this in the spreadsheet, but felt it deserved to be mentioned.

5. Wind Stance doesnt affect Offhand percentages. It gives an Enhancement bonus to Attack rate (same type as Haste) and also a small chance to Double strike. At 2.5% chance for base Windstance, double strike doesn't factor into the 20 swing calculation cleanly. A minimum of 25 attacks would have to be sampled to receive the bonus of 1 double strike attack.

That said, the double strike would apply equally to Unarmed or Quarterstaff fighting. As Doublestrike doesnt apply to offhand attacks or to glancing blows, then both forms of style would be affected at the same percentage rates.

Yeah I misread/understood that.

6. Appreciate it has to be mentioned, but this is where a little common sense has to prevail. Generally, most trash mobs are dead by the 3-4th swing if TWF, or the 4-5 swing if THF. There isn't enough hits delivered to generate the Ki potential to power both FoL and Healing Ki finisher, and then drop Earth attacks as well for an Earth finisher. Much better to narrow your play here and restrict yourself to 'Lighting Up' an enemy on the first strike with Healing Curse, and then finish off a Healing Ki move after the third mob is dead.

Boss fighting is different of course - you have time to build Ki and repeatedly hit Earth finishers.

Many Thanks for posting a sensible reply - hope this gives fair comment back to you.

To be fair... the boss fights are where dps matters the most though.

Its also where I'm more likely to be using my healing finishers if i am meleeing.


As far as thanking me... its unfortunate that people have such bad social etiquette as for my post to stand out.

[kernal42]

Its a good effort Arlathen but the primary reason why unarmed is so good is the attack speed which is a fair bit faster than any other combat style. It also tends to win long run based on additional attacks and is more versatile for weapon effects like vorpal, disruption etc...

I do think your work goes a long way to saying that quarterstaff is viable and a decent choice to make. I certainly find at low levels its often preferable on a DPS oriented monk.

This. Also, so you know, "DPS" means "damage per second". Your values for "DPS" are really "Damage per 20 attacks."

Cheers,
Kernal

[CrankVulcan]

this. Also, So You Know, "dps" Means "damage Per Second". Your Values For "dps" Are Really "damage Per 20 Attacks."

Cheers,
Kernal

"dp20a"

[Arlathen]

While DM certainly adds to glancing blows it won't give 1.5x for THF afaik. I'm fairly certain that it simply adds +2/4/6/8 damage which favours TWF.

I've come to the conclusion that a strength based cleric without uber gear won't have the SP pool to raid heal without excessive use of resources.

The question for my clonk is comparing the DPS of rapiers vs handwraps for a drow being a 18/2 or 18/2/1 fighter or 18/3 finesse build.

It does add a straight bonus - where the 1.5x comes from is the way it improves the Glancing Blow damage as well. If DM1 for example adds +2 to base damage, then it also adds +1 to glancing blow damage, and hence works at 1.5x its value. It works at 2.0x for unarmed attacks, as it applies the full value to both attacks when unarmed fighting.