The best all-around method of clonk melee damage

[CrankVulcan]

I am about to start leveling my first clonk, and I have had so many thoughts about how to build him. Races, stats, feats, hair styles, skills, and damage output. Most 17/3 builds are built around staying centered, otherwise they would have stopped at 2 lvls of monk. Only other thing a 3rd lvl monk brings to a build is healing amp.

So basically Clonk melee is narrowed down to these options:

<FISTS>
Pros-Most likely the highest DPS choice, wraps+ToD rings, full off hand bonuses, etc.

Cons-Costs 3 feats to max out DPS with fists, no Greensteel wraps, harder to beat harry

<KAMAS>
Pros-Can be useful if crafted for casting or AC, sorta cool looking(?)

Cons- Horrible DPS weapon due to low base damage, terrible crit profile, and costs 3 feats to use "effectively"

<STAFF>
Pros- no feats required, 1.5x str mod for damage, double power attack damage, GS/Rahl's might/dreamspitter are pretty effective compared to named/GS kamas.

Cons-lower DPS(maybe) than fists, can't dual-wield for casting purposes.

<LONGSWORDS>
Pros- Cool looking sorta like kamas(lol), best crit profile available to a centered monk, Dual-wieldable for casting or fighting puposes.

Cons-DPS is pretty lame for the HUGE list of feats needed, -2 to-hit for TWF...-2 more for oversized....Blah


So those are the basic choices for melee if you want to stay centered.

Can I get some opinions on each? Experiences that would sway you in one direction or another? Anything I overlooked? I have one Question concerning damage. How does the Staff compare to unarmed when you consider GS possibilities and glancing blows? Also consider the feat cost for each. Is the staff option complete garbage? Is it even worth swinging a staff or is it completely useless? I hoped to use the extra feat slots to help my clonk's casting...

[Raoull]

wraps all the way. Kamas or staff for casting purposes but wraps for melee.

[FuzzyDuck81]

The main advantage of using quarterstaff is that if you're using power attack you'll get +10 damage instead of the +5 if you were using handwraps or kamas.

Kamas are a good bet for casting (eg. potency etc), and its easier to get hold of DR-beaters on kamas (or quarterstaves for that matter) than wraps, plus you can get vorpals.

For most other circumstances, handwraps are likely your best bet.

A handy enchantment to find on whatever weapon you choose is vicious, as it adds a nice amount of untyped damage & between Fists Of Light & the radiant servant healing aura you wont have to worry about the HP loss incurred.

I tend to use vicious PG handwraps (or vicious greater bane) on my clonk, with a pair of DR beater kamas (iirc a +3 holy silver of enfeebling & a +4 thundering silver of PG) for bosses & vorpals for high-HP trash.

[Kriogen]

Do not forget that fists and staff have higher attack speed. Many forget this. That DPS is 'damage per hit' and 'speed'. Maybe wraps/staffs have low crit range, but are fast.

Wraps if you can spare 3 feats and DEX 15 (and +2 tome), staff if not.

If possible i'd go wraps. Divine Favor/Might is 'per hit' so favors TWF. But staff will also do as long as you don't dump STR (1.5 STR bonus). Staff is also much, much cheaper (no need for feats, greensteel, some nice utility staffs ingame).

If you will go with high WIS (caster with melee), then you'll probably be short on stat points, not much left for STR, DEX and you'll want many meta-magic feats. Go staff and try to put as much as possible into STR.

If you don't care much about offensive casting (low, medium WIS, maybe just good enough BB), then go wraps.

[Therigar]

One possibility is to use handwraps in most situations and swap to quarterstaff if you need a Harry beater.

Both are bludgeoning so any feats you use on weapons can apply to either.

OTOH, tough to justify having a cleric toe-to-toe with Harry in most groups. And, while I am a big proponent of battleclerics, it is likely that a fighter or barbarian or ranger or rogue is bringing more damage to the encounter -- meaning that it is hurtful to most groups to take the battlecleric for a melee role against Harry.

So, worrying about a Harry beater might be needless worry most of the time.

My experience is that battleclerics that melee Harry create more of a problem for the group than those that stay back and join the mass cure/heal fest. I have seen one or two players able to get in toe-to-toe and still manage the healing. But most fail.

By fail I mean they are first to die and then the lack of added healing causes the party wipe.

Not saying that this will be the case for you. Just saying that it is something that I see pretty routinely.

A serious issue with battleclerics is the lack of feats to do everything. Assuming you will go with the TWF line this becomes even more of an issue. As you've observed, the damage profiles for most of the available weapon choices is pretty low. The accepted wisdom is that handwraps with the TWF line gives the best overall damage.

So, most advice is probably going to be to use handwraps. And, I'd guess that 80% of the TWF builds are going to rely on weapon finesse. That is almost suggested by concerns over centered bonuses (as that implies a concern over AC). I do understand that there is also some concern over stances and that this may be your situation.

One possibility is to accept being uncentered regardless of the impact on AC and/or stance. That would let you dual wield maces or clubs. Since a lot of the spell boosts are found on these it overcomes your concerns in that area. And, because these are bludgeon weapons it also takes advantage of any weapon feats you may take. Lastly, by using light maces you still benefit from weapon finesse if you go that route. You can go 1 heavy/1 light if you go the STR route w/o taking an oversize penalty.

[sirgog]

OTOH, tough to justify having a cleric toe-to-toe with Harry in most groups. And, while I am a big proponent of battleclerics, it is likely that a fighter or barbarian or ranger or rogue is bringing more damage to the encounter -- meaning that it is hurtful to most groups to take the battlecleric for a melee role against Harry.

So, worrying about a Harry beater might be needless worry most of the time.

My experience is that battleclerics that melee Harry create more of a problem for the group than those that stay back and join the mass cure/heal fest. I have seen one or two players able to get in toe-to-toe and still manage the healing. But most fail.

By fail I mean they are first to die and then the lack of added healing causes the party wipe.

Don't change your playstyle based on the failures of bad players. Some Rogues are unhealable in melee with Harry, should all rogues stand back and use ranged weapons?

Don't go into melee with Harry unless you have the hitpoints to do so - but once you do, don't pike by standing on the back lines, and don't risk the group by centering mass cures/heals on someone that might unpredictably run out of combat - i.e. someone that isn't you.

[Hellllboy]

Can I get some opinions on each? Experiences that would sway you in one direction or another? Anything I overlooked? I have one Question concerning damage. How does the Staff compare to unarmed when you consider GS possibilities and glancing blows? Also consider the feat cost for each. Is the staff option complete garbage? Is it even worth swinging a staff or is it completely useless? I hoped to use the extra feat slots to help my clonk's casting...

For the majority of mobs, ive found that a simple pair of vorpal Kamas does the trick.

Handwraps (with path of light) are very helpful-especially in a circumstance (such as a Harry Scrum) where you can heal the party while dealing damage and not burn mana.

I almost never use a staff.

[Kriogen]

...
OTOH, tough to justify having a cleric toe-to-toe with Harry in most groups. And, while I am a big proponent of battleclerics, it is likely that a fighter or barbarian or ranger or rogue is bringing more damage to the encounter -- meaning that it is hurtful to most groups to take the battlecleric for a melee role against Harry.
...

OP is making a Clonk, Cleric17/Monk3. And a Radiant Servant. And wants to be centered. My bet is OP wants to use monks lightside buffs.

So he/she has on-hit, PBAoE monks buffs, PBAoE radiant servant regen and burst cures, quicken cures/heals, solid melee damage (i guess thats why OP is asking what to use in melee), solid saves, evasion, even ok-ish AC.

As long as OPs build is not CON6 squishy it *must* be in melee for best effect. Half of what centered lightside Clonk has is point-blank AoE, on-hit effect. And with Quicken you never fail casting spells.

[Chai]

Don't change your playstyle based on the failures of bad players. Some Rogues are unhealable in melee with Harry, should all rogues stand back and use ranged weapons?

Don't go into melee with Harry unless you have the hitpoints to do so - but once you do, don't pike by standing on the back lines, and don't risk the group by centering mass cures/heals on someone that might unpredictably run out of combat - i.e. someone that isn't you.

This.

I see alot of anti battle cleric moaning on the forums, and most of it is coming from either people who witnessed bad play from a battle cleric, or people who failed to build one in the past that met their expectations. They then give in to bantering the absolute and try to convince other players that all battlepriests are a bad idea.

[Raoull]

I forgot about boss beaters...

Do get yourself some metalline kamas of PG. Even if you don't go toe to toe with a Raid boss, if you ever solo, you'll eventually be meleeing something that you're having DR problems with. I carried some around for quite a while unneeded... but when beating on a vampire I realized my wraps were pointless. The kamas took him down. I've also used them occasionally on zombies in elite quests. In normal, the DR isn't high enough to switch away from wraps, but in elite it can be.

[grodon9999]

Wraps all the way. The Longswords aren't worth the feats and kamas are only good for vorpalling.

My Clonk has the Epic Mabar wraps with a Holy and shocking burst on ToD rings. When I remember to move a bloodstone over to him his auto-crit DPS is high enough that it's actually worth the bother. Even in a quest like Epic OOB he can still fight with the melee and keep everyone alive (for the most part . . .). The damage is decent and he's a weak DEX-build with no power-attack.

I'm considering an LR for him that dumps Wisdom/AC a little and goes with more STR with enough CHR for Divine Might II, taking Power Attack instead of Weapon Finesse. I'm just not sure the DPS difference is worth the loss of an already small SP-pool.

[TFPAQ]

Wraps all the way. The Longswords aren't worth the feats and kamas are only good for vorpalling.

My Clonk has the Epic Mabar wraps with a Holy and shocking burst on ToD rings. When I remember to move a bloodstone over to him his auto-crit DPS is high enough that it's actually worth the bother. Even in a quest like Epic OOB he can still fight with the melee and keep everyone alive (for the most part . . .). The damage is decent and he's a weak DEX-build with no power-attack.

I'm considering an LR for him that dumps Wisdom/AC a little and goes with more STR with enough CHR for Divine Might II, taking Power Attack instead of Weapon Finesse. I'm just not sure the DPS difference is worth the loss of an already small SP-pool.

Only difference people need to realize that with only 3 lvls of monk, wraps or kamas are the same. Once you get set up on your ToD rings, then it changes.

My halfling is Dex/Wis based with PA. Adding PA along with his divine mights actually does excellent damage (for a realatively non-dps build). He uses two holy kamas of pure good most of the time (don't have ToD rings on him yet to swap out for wraps). Vorp kamas are also pretty nice.

His AC is 63 self-buffed with PA on (68 with CE which isn't a mana hog because of curse of healing and radiant servant running). So he can stay in the front lines mostly (only 384 hp however so several bosses can be a problem).

Still the best solo build I've run (other than WF Arcanes ...)

[Therigar]

OP is making a Clonk, Cleric17/Monk3. And a Radiant Servant. And wants to be centered. My bet is OP wants to use monks lightside buffs.

So he/she has on-hit, PBAoE monks buffs, PBAoE radiant servant regen and burst cures, quicken cures/heals, solid melee damage (i guess thats why OP is asking what to use in melee), solid saves, evasion, even ok-ish AC.

As long as OPs build is not CON6 squishy it *must* be in melee for best effect. Half of what centered lightside Clonk has is point-blank AoE, on-hit effect. And with Quicken you never fail casting spells.

This is exactly the build that I see run in Shroud and fail. Doesn't have to do with the CON, has to do with over-estimating the value of light side buffs and radiant servant.

Same cleric standing outside melee lives and contributes their spell pool in mass cures through the entire encounter.

A player really has to have the build right, have the right gear and be an exceptional player to pull it off.

[CrankVulcan]

Wraps all the way. The Longswords aren't worth the feats and kamas are only good for vorpalling.

Well whats the situation on the quarterstaff? How does it compare with the unarmed or kamas/longswords methods of fighting. If your geared to the max with Power attack and the TWF line(not for the staff of course) how far behind is the QS in raw DPS? I am leaning strongly towards QS's because they seem to net the most DPS without losing 3 feats, leaving me more room for metamagics....

[CrankVulcan]

Only difference people need to realize that with only 3 lvls of monk, wraps or kamas are the same.

Even without TOD wrings, wraps are exceptionally more powerful due to better 2hit bonus and full str. bonus to each hand. For the purpose of raw DPS, there is no comparison. I think unarmed attack sequences are slightly faster than kamas if I remember correctly...

[grodon9999]

Even without TOD wrings, wraps are exceptionally more powerful due to better 2hit bonus and full str. bonus to each hand. For the purpose of raw DPS, there is no comparison. I think unarmed attack sequences are slightly faster than kamas if I remember correctly...

Yes it it. Un-armed is MUCH better DPS than kamas.

Un-armed is better than even maces/hammer for TWFs even if you only have 1 level of monk. The full off-hand STR and 10% additional attack speed is huge when bashing skellies/litches.

[sirgog]

This is exactly the build that I see run in Shroud and fail. Doesn't have to do with the CON, has to do with over-estimating the value of light side buffs and radiant servant.

Same cleric standing outside melee lives and contributes their spell pool in mass cures through the entire encounter.

A player really has to have the build right, have the right gear and be an exceptional player to pull it off.

No, they just need hit points.

I healed dozens of Shrouds on a Clr15/Ftr1 when the cap was 16, I had 462 hp and two-rounders were the norm and bad groups took three. 462 is a lot less HP than a 20th level Clr17/Mnk3 should have, and they have Evasion.

The only times I didn't heal from melee range back then were Elite runs, and even then, the main reason was because I needed to be able to cast scrolls without interruption.

[CrankVulcan]

462 is a lot less HP than a 20th level Clr17/Mnk3 should have, and they have Evasion.

How is my clonk supposed to reach more than 462 hp?0.o

My starting Con is only gonna be a 12 I think. Can I get a breakdown please-_-

[ConnorMacLoad]

My dps option has been stunning fist. I went with a dwarf and will have a 39 SF DC. Going the dwarf route gives me a little extra survivability but my charisma sucks.

I figure a nice SF DC with dual burst rings and some force burst stunner +10 wraps will be a nice bump to dps.

I also switch to the staff to get my potency option for healing right now, but that can easily be put into an item later on.

[ConnorMacLoad]

How is my clonk supposed to reach more than 462 hp?0.o

My starting Con is only gonna be a 12 I think. Can I get a breakdown please-_-

there are two ways I can see a clonk getting 500hp's

1) is with unrealistic situational buffs (like double madstone) in other words, epeen HP's that only happen once every 4 hours of game play. (I appreciate some people are on it enough to sustain those yugo/madstone buffs for longer, but we have to agree that is not the norm)

2) If you are a WF or Dwarf. My dwarf will end up with raged HP's close to 500.