The best all-around method of clonk melee damage

[CrankVulcan]

I am about to start leveling my first clonk, and I have had so many thoughts about how to build him. Races, stats, feats, hair styles, skills, and damage output. Most 17/3 builds are built around staying centered, otherwise they would have stopped at 2 lvls of monk. Only other thing a 3rd lvl monk brings to a build is healing amp.

So basically Clonk melee is narrowed down to these options:

<FISTS>
Pros-Most likely the highest DPS choice, wraps+ToD rings, full off hand bonuses, etc.

Cons-Costs 3 feats to max out DPS with fists, no Greensteel wraps, harder to beat harry

<KAMAS>
Pros-Can be useful if crafted for casting or AC, sorta cool looking(?)

Cons- Horrible DPS weapon due to low base damage, terrible crit profile, and costs 3 feats to use "effectively"

<STAFF>
Pros- no feats required, 1.5x str mod for damage, double power attack damage, GS/Rahl's might/dreamspitter are pretty effective compared to named/GS kamas.

Cons-lower DPS(maybe) than fists, can't dual-wield for casting purposes.

<LONGSWORDS>
Pros- Cool looking sorta like kamas(lol), best crit profile available to a centered monk, Dual-wieldable for casting or fighting puposes.

Cons-DPS is pretty lame for the HUGE list of feats needed, -2 to-hit for TWF...-2 more for oversized....Blah


So those are the basic choices for melee if you want to stay centered.

Can I get some opinions on each? Experiences that would sway you in one direction or another? Anything I overlooked? I have one Question concerning damage. How does the Staff compare to unarmed when you consider GS possibilities and glancing blows? Also consider the feat cost for each. Is the staff option complete garbage? Is it even worth swinging a staff or is it completely useless? I hoped to use the extra feat slots to help my clonk's casting...

[Raoull]

wraps all the way. Kamas or staff for casting purposes but wraps for melee.

[FuzzyDuck81]

The main advantage of using quarterstaff is that if you're using power attack you'll get +10 damage instead of the +5 if you were using handwraps or kamas.

Kamas are a good bet for casting (eg. potency etc), and its easier to get hold of DR-beaters on kamas (or quarterstaves for that matter) than wraps, plus you can get vorpals.

For most other circumstances, handwraps are likely your best bet.

A handy enchantment to find on whatever weapon you choose is vicious, as it adds a nice amount of untyped damage & between Fists Of Light & the radiant servant healing aura you wont have to worry about the HP loss incurred.

I tend to use vicious PG handwraps (or vicious greater bane) on my clonk, with a pair of DR beater kamas (iirc a +3 holy silver of enfeebling & a +4 thundering silver of PG) for bosses & vorpals for high-HP trash.

[Therigar]

One possibility is to use handwraps in most situations and swap to quarterstaff if you need a Harry beater.

Both are bludgeoning so any feats you use on weapons can apply to either.

OTOH, tough to justify having a cleric toe-to-toe with Harry in most groups. And, while I am a big proponent of battleclerics, it is likely that a fighter or barbarian or ranger or rogue is bringing more damage to the encounter -- meaning that it is hurtful to most groups to take the battlecleric for a melee role against Harry.

So, worrying about a Harry beater might be needless worry most of the time.

My experience is that battleclerics that melee Harry create more of a problem for the group than those that stay back and join the mass cure/heal fest. I have seen one or two players able to get in toe-to-toe and still manage the healing. But most fail.

By fail I mean they are first to die and then the lack of added healing causes the party wipe.

Not saying that this will be the case for you. Just saying that it is something that I see pretty routinely.

A serious issue with battleclerics is the lack of feats to do everything. Assuming you will go with the TWF line this becomes even more of an issue. As you've observed, the damage profiles for most of the available weapon choices is pretty low. The accepted wisdom is that handwraps with the TWF line gives the best overall damage.

So, most advice is probably going to be to use handwraps. And, I'd guess that 80% of the TWF builds are going to rely on weapon finesse. That is almost suggested by concerns over centered bonuses (as that implies a concern over AC). I do understand that there is also some concern over stances and that this may be your situation.

One possibility is to accept being uncentered regardless of the impact on AC and/or stance. That would let you dual wield maces or clubs. Since a lot of the spell boosts are found on these it overcomes your concerns in that area. And, because these are bludgeon weapons it also takes advantage of any weapon feats you may take. Lastly, by using light maces you still benefit from weapon finesse if you go that route. You can go 1 heavy/1 light if you go the STR route w/o taking an oversize penalty.

[sirgog]

OTOH, tough to justify having a cleric toe-to-toe with Harry in most groups. And, while I am a big proponent of battleclerics, it is likely that a fighter or barbarian or ranger or rogue is bringing more damage to the encounter -- meaning that it is hurtful to most groups to take the battlecleric for a melee role against Harry.

So, worrying about a Harry beater might be needless worry most of the time.

My experience is that battleclerics that melee Harry create more of a problem for the group than those that stay back and join the mass cure/heal fest. I have seen one or two players able to get in toe-to-toe and still manage the healing. But most fail.

By fail I mean they are first to die and then the lack of added healing causes the party wipe.

Don't change your playstyle based on the failures of bad players. Some Rogues are unhealable in melee with Harry, should all rogues stand back and use ranged weapons?

Don't go into melee with Harry unless you have the hitpoints to do so - but once you do, don't pike by standing on the back lines, and don't risk the group by centering mass cures/heals on someone that might unpredictably run out of combat - i.e. someone that isn't you.

[Chai]

Don't change your playstyle based on the failures of bad players. Some Rogues are unhealable in melee with Harry, should all rogues stand back and use ranged weapons?

Don't go into melee with Harry unless you have the hitpoints to do so - but once you do, don't pike by standing on the back lines, and don't risk the group by centering mass cures/heals on someone that might unpredictably run out of combat - i.e. someone that isn't you.

This.

I see alot of anti battle cleric moaning on the forums, and most of it is coming from either people who witnessed bad play from a battle cleric, or people who failed to build one in the past that met their expectations. They then give in to bantering the absolute and try to convince other players that all battlepriests are a bad idea.

[Kriogen]

...
OTOH, tough to justify having a cleric toe-to-toe with Harry in most groups. And, while I am a big proponent of battleclerics, it is likely that a fighter or barbarian or ranger or rogue is bringing more damage to the encounter -- meaning that it is hurtful to most groups to take the battlecleric for a melee role against Harry.
...

OP is making a Clonk, Cleric17/Monk3. And a Radiant Servant. And wants to be centered. My bet is OP wants to use monks lightside buffs.

So he/she has on-hit, PBAoE monks buffs, PBAoE radiant servant regen and burst cures, quicken cures/heals, solid melee damage (i guess thats why OP is asking what to use in melee), solid saves, evasion, even ok-ish AC.

As long as OPs build is not CON6 squishy it *must* be in melee for best effect. Half of what centered lightside Clonk has is point-blank AoE, on-hit effect. And with Quicken you never fail casting spells.

[Therigar]

OP is making a Clonk, Cleric17/Monk3. And a Radiant Servant. And wants to be centered. My bet is OP wants to use monks lightside buffs.

So he/she has on-hit, PBAoE monks buffs, PBAoE radiant servant regen and burst cures, quicken cures/heals, solid melee damage (i guess thats why OP is asking what to use in melee), solid saves, evasion, even ok-ish AC.

As long as OPs build is not CON6 squishy it *must* be in melee for best effect. Half of what centered lightside Clonk has is point-blank AoE, on-hit effect. And with Quicken you never fail casting spells.

This is exactly the build that I see run in Shroud and fail. Doesn't have to do with the CON, has to do with over-estimating the value of light side buffs and radiant servant.

Same cleric standing outside melee lives and contributes their spell pool in mass cures through the entire encounter.

A player really has to have the build right, have the right gear and be an exceptional player to pull it off.

[Kriogen]

Do not forget that fists and staff have higher attack speed. Many forget this. That DPS is 'damage per hit' and 'speed'. Maybe wraps/staffs have low crit range, but are fast.

Wraps if you can spare 3 feats and DEX 15 (and +2 tome), staff if not.

If possible i'd go wraps. Divine Favor/Might is 'per hit' so favors TWF. But staff will also do as long as you don't dump STR (1.5 STR bonus). Staff is also much, much cheaper (no need for feats, greensteel, some nice utility staffs ingame).

If you will go with high WIS (caster with melee), then you'll probably be short on stat points, not much left for STR, DEX and you'll want many meta-magic feats. Go staff and try to put as much as possible into STR.

If you don't care much about offensive casting (low, medium WIS, maybe just good enough BB), then go wraps.

[Hellllboy]

Can I get some opinions on each? Experiences that would sway you in one direction or another? Anything I overlooked? I have one Question concerning damage. How does the Staff compare to unarmed when you consider GS possibilities and glancing blows? Also consider the feat cost for each. Is the staff option complete garbage? Is it even worth swinging a staff or is it completely useless? I hoped to use the extra feat slots to help my clonk's casting...

For the majority of mobs, ive found that a simple pair of vorpal Kamas does the trick.

Handwraps (with path of light) are very helpful-especially in a circumstance (such as a Harry Scrum) where you can heal the party while dealing damage and not burn mana.

I almost never use a staff.

[sigtrent]

I think there are two kinds of Clonks

1. Those that want to beat up monsters
2. Those that want evasion on their healer (but may fight at times for fun)

If you are going for #1 then DPS is pretty important and handwraps offers the best damage potential of the options. This is especially true if you are going to run Tower of Despair since you can get pretty easily make a holy burst ring and use mettaline hand-wraps for boss beating. The attack rate will trump the extra damage on the quarterstaff quite easily if you have only two of the TWF feats.

If #2 is your aim its a bit more of a toss up. I'm not buying the "lets you have less dex" argument much as your reflex save is important on Clonk and your AC is probably important to you and both are dex driven. IF you aren't taking advantage of that stuff and you aren't interested in DPS, why take the monk levels at all? I think the better argument for quarterstaff is you want to use all your feats for casting and the monk bonus feats for toughness. Quarterstaff is your best option if you want to not invest feats. If you are investing feats, go with TWF feats and use fists for damage, kamas for vorpal.

I think it may be possible to do a half orc clonk where staff makes more sense but I suspect in utility and DPS it won't match TWF styles at higher levels. At lower levels, the staff likely wins.

[CrankVulcan]

If you are going for #1 then DPS is pretty important and handwraps offers the best damage potential of the options.

Well what about for less of melee/caster viewpoint as much as a straight up killer/survivalist. When comparing fists and staves, is the difference MASSIVE? Like double? or is it like 20% more damage? whats the comparison between unarmed and quarterstaff when no feats are invested?

Another thought when it comes to survivability....what's the difference in attack speed in the two attack forms? It might matter when FoL is involved. Obviously unarmed with TWF is going to be faster...but how much faster?

Also consider the huge stat investment to get to a 17 base dex for Itwf...

[sigtrent]

Its a good effort Arlathen but the primary reason why unarmed is so good is the attack speed which is a fair bit faster than any other combat style. It also tends to win long run based on additional attacks and is more versatile for weapon effects like vorpal, disruption etc...

I do think your work goes a long way to saying that quarterstaff is viable and a decent choice to make. I certainly find at low levels its often preferable on a DPS oriented monk.

[Arlathen]

Its a good effort Arlathen but the primary reason why unarmed is so good is the attack speed which is a fair bit faster than any other combat style. It also tends to win long run based on additional attacks and is more versatile for weapon effects like vorpal, disruption etc...

I do think your work goes a long way to saying that quarterstaff is viable and a decent choice to make. I certainly find at low levels its often preferable on a DPS oriented monk.

I'll concede the Attack Speed issue - it needs looking at, absolutely.

In all fairness, this is a comparison on damage output - I'd be the first person to say ditch the Quarterstaff and go Wind stance & Kama for Vorpalling, or unarmed for Banishing/Smiting/Disruption etc.

I just firmly believe that if operated in the right manner, a Quarterstaff Clonk can compete well with Unarmed, and bring something different to the mix other than TWF.

[voodoogroves]

The single biggest advantage to choosing the staff is the 3 feats + dex you'll save.


Your melee DPS will be lower, at the core. Your other capabilities should be stronger. What can you put in with those 3 feats?

[kernal42]

Its a good effort Arlathen but the primary reason why unarmed is so good is the attack speed which is a fair bit faster than any other combat style. It also tends to win long run based on additional attacks and is more versatile for weapon effects like vorpal, disruption etc...

I do think your work goes a long way to saying that quarterstaff is viable and a decent choice to make. I certainly find at low levels its often preferable on a DPS oriented monk.

This. Also, so you know, "DPS" means "damage per second". Your values for "DPS" are really "Damage per 20 attacks."

Cheers,
Kernal

[CrankVulcan]

this. Also, So You Know, "dps" Means "damage Per Second". Your Values For "dps" Are Really "damage Per 20 Attacks."

Cheers,
Kernal

"dp20a"

[Arlathen]

This. Also, so you know, "DPS" means "damage per second". Your values for "DPS" are really "Damage per 20 attacks."

Cheers,
Kernal

It could also mean Damage Per Swing

But I like the DP20A mnemonic... hehe.