Pale Master: Wich form is better?

[frznvimes]

I've found that I usually run around in wraith form when solo for the stealth and incorporeal effect, which is more useful than I anticipated. However, if you have to pick just one I'd definitely say lich form as it's less specialized (it still makes you more survivable, the extra dc is nice for everything, and survivability matters a bit less when teaming).

+63 HP (why? Don't you gain +4 constitution? That is 42 hps. I seriously consider EACH wizard with at least one toughness feat)

Because the op only has room for mental toughness or toughness, which is why they can only fit in 1 form in the first place.
I'd also call it +83 hp because you should definitely take at least the first two racial enhancements.

[Delolith]

Because the op only has room for mental toughness or toughness, which is why they can only fit in 1 form in the first place.
I'd also call it +83 hp because you should definitely take at least the first two racial enhancements.

Sorry but I do not agree with this analysis. Firstly, in the case he puts the benefits of Toughness feat on Lich he should also put the benefits of Mental Toughness for Wraith which he did not. Also these are generic feats that have nothing to do with the PRE perse apart from being prereqs. I play a hybrid caster and I have both since I want both toughness and Wraith form. I do not consider it either this or that. If you cannot afford toughness AND mental toughness then wraithform is out of the question anyway. If you can, then you can consider using it.

I hope I made myself clearer.

[sephiroth1084]

Sorry but I do not agree with this analysis. Firstly, in the case he puts the benefits of Toughness feat on Lich he should also put the benefits of Mental Toughness for Wraith which he did not. Also these are generic feats that have nothing to do with the PRE perse apart from being prereqs. I play a hybrid caster and I have both since I want both toughness and Wraith form. I do not consider it either this or that. If you cannot afford toughness AND mental toughness then wraithform is out of the question anyway. If you can, then you can consider using it.

I hope I made myself clearer.

As the poster above you stated, the OP is considering only one form because h has only a single feat to spare, hence the comparison also includes that between Toughness and Mental Toughness. Yes, I did forget to include the extra 105 SP gained from MT in my comparison.

Not sure why I put down 63 HP...think the addition I did slipped away between my thoughts and my fingers. Anyway, I'd say that 83 HP > 105 SP at endgame where spells can routinely hit for 400+ and where quaffing a mana pot, while not ideal, is certain a realistic option and very rarely will that delay in being "full" result in something really bad happening, whereas being low on HP can very quickly equal dead.

Here's another way to look at it:
Both forms offer added protection vs. physical attacks (lich more HP and temporary HP gained back, wraith 25% miss chance), but only lich form offers any protection vs. spells or traps.

In PnP, incorporeality also works on spells, but that might be too powerful in DDO (likely not so much for the wizard, but definitely for the monk who already has quite a lot of defense against them).

[Delolith]

As the poster above you stated, the OP is considering only one form because h has only a single feat to spare, hence the comparison also includes that between Toughness and Mental Toughness. Yes, I did forget to include the extra 105 SP gained from MT in my comparison.

Not sure why I put down 63 HP...think the addition I did slipped away between my thoughts and my fingers. Anyway, I'd say that 83 HP > 105 SP at endgame where spells can routinely hit for 400+ and where quaffing a mana pot, while not ideal, is certain a realistic option and very rarely will that delay in being "full" result in something really bad happening, whereas being low on HP can very quickly equal dead.

Here's another way to look at it:
Both forms offer added protection vs. physical attacks (lich more HP and temporary HP gained back, wraith 25% miss chance), but only lich form offers any protection vs. spells or traps.

In PnP, incorporeality also works on spells, but that might be too powerful in DDO (likely not so much for the wizard, but definitely for the monk who already has quite a lot of defense against them).

Don't get me wrong...you are absolutely right. A pure caster PM has almost no reason to go Wraith instead of Lich. Still Wraith form is amazing for swordmages.

In order to make Wraith form more appealing in general I would really like to see a +4 dexterity (like the +4 const) and maybe extend the constitution drain on critical attacks even when using weapons (not just unarmed) since incorporeality negation also extends to weapons.

[karnokvolrath]

Wraith form has situational usefullness.

Lichform is almost always useful.

If i could only choose one, Lich > Wraith

[Varr]

Granted that circumstances of every encounter drastically change, but it would seem I survived about 30-80% longer during intensive kitting in Wraith vs. Lich.
everyone.

From some of my limited testing I survived -40% to +30% and at other time it was about the same, but occationally I would see a very large +75% or around that. Unless it was when there was only a tiny difference.....and that happens some of the times.

This is not my opinion, but fact........except those times that it isn't, once in a while.

Hehehe