Opinions on Shintao

[ckorik]

After playing a light monk to 20 - and enjoying it - I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on Shintao. I've taken the PRE after it was made available - and I have really enjoyed it - even though the 'forum noise' indicated displeasure over how it was implemented.

I guess that also, after asking another monk in my guild (light based) if they planned on taking the PRE they responded like I had spit on them - that I'd like to see some more discussion on this. I'll also state that I'm having fun with the build and this isn't about making a choice as much as I'm trying to get some thoughts from others that might be using the PRE.

Opinions by PRE tier:

Shintao Monk I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 4 action points
Spent: 16 action points
Requires One of: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Discipline, Luck of Heroes, Self Sufficient, Precision, Resilience, Diehard
Requires All of: Stunning Fist, Monk Improved Recovery I, Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Available to Monk class level 6
You guide others on the path of enlightenment, leading by example. You gain the ability to expend ki to smite 'tainted' creatures (aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not Lawful Outsiders, and undead). You gain +2 to Diplomacy, Heal, and Intimidate, and a permanent Protection from Tainted Creatures effect (warding against mental domination and granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from extraplanar creatures, aberrations, and undead). Your unarmed attacks now bypass Byeshk damage reduction.

The only thing I don't like about this - is the feat requirement. I like the smite - it's not really a huge dps increase but it does allow me to use a dps move instead of FoL to build a finisher. I'm really not sure what the DR bypass gets me as I'm not sure what mobs really use that type of DR.

Shintao Monk II
Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Spent: 42 action points
Requires One of: Monk Improved Recovery III, Rise of the Phoenix
Requires All of: Shintao Monk I
Available to Monk class level 12
Invaders from other realities have learned to fear your prowess. You gain an additional +2 to Diplomacy, Heal, and Intimidate, and the ability to expend ki to dismiss outsiders, or to strike 'tainted' creatures (aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead) with an attack that increases their vulnerability to physical damage. Your Protection from Tainted Creatures bonuses increase to a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus (against attacks from extraplanar creatures, aberrations, and undead), and your unarmed attacks now bypass Cold Iron damage reduction.

Nothing outrageous on the requirements here - utility monks will almost always take the Res ability - and IR III is a no brainer for someone trying to work out a heal amp build.

+4 AC +4 Resistance (that resistance is a +4 stacking bonus to saves against most of the nastiest stuff you fight - not bad at all) - and cold iron damage - this is nice as it beats demon resistance - at this level (at least for me) I was running thernal and caverns of komar / Co6 and other dungeons with a high demon contingent - while I passed this before I had the PRE I could see why it would be nice.

Dismissal - this is excellent for vale quests - not so much elsewhere, but still nice.

Shintao Monk: Jade Strike
Usage: Active
Cost: 0 action points
You perform a melee attack that is anathema to tainted creatures, that increases their physical damage vulnerability by 10% and reduces their fortification by 25%. A successful Will save negates this effect (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability only functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead, and counts as a Light move. Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations, or undead receive double this effect. On critical hits, a tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate.

Now this is nice - something that I use end game. 10% more physical dps - 25% fort reduction (which stacks with the rogue opportunist feat) - usable on bosses and undead. Oh and did I mention it's a will save? This is usually the weakest save on tough as nails mobs. On crits this will tomb the mob - providing an auto stun situation. The tomb works on orange named and below. This + smite + FoL + finisher is a nice rotation that works on bosses and leaves you with some ki leftover for elemental/void attacks when you are not on this rotation.

Shintao Monk III
Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Spent: 66 action points
Requires One of: Master of Thunder, Master of Bonfires, Master of Stone, Master of the Sea
Requires All of: Shintao Monk II
Available to Monk class level 18
You have reached the heights of enlightenment, and are a defender of the natural world. You gain an additional +2 to Diplomacy, Heal, and Intimidate, and the ability to expend ki to stun opponents at range or lock 'tainted' creatures (aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead) in a tomb of jade. Your Protection from Tainted Creatures bonuses increase to a +6 deflection bonus to AC and a +6 resistance bonus (against attacks from extraplanar creatures, aberrations, and undead), and your unarmed attacks now bypass Silver damage reduction.

Well if you play a monk to 18 and don't have Master of something - erm in any case the requirements may as well be not listed - which is most likely a dev mea culpa to the stupid requirements from the first tier. +6 AC +6 to saves - nothing not to like here - um. SILVER - there isn't much else to say - this lets us use any holy/pg handwraps to bypass devil DR - very very nice.

Shintao Monk: Kukan-Do
Usage: Active
Cost: 0 action points
You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Charisma Modifier + your monk level). Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability. This ability counts as a Light move.

Ranged stun - on devils that like to port around as soon as you close into melee with them - this stun works on undead and elementals. What is not to like - did I mention it's a *will* save?

Shintao Monk: Tomb of Jade
Usage: Active
Cost: 0 action points
You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid this fate. This ability counts as a Light move.

This is like flesh to stone - only it's Jade - and instead of giving the mobs DR - it puts them into a stunned state. - so it's a stun - that works on will saves.

That gives you stunning fist (fort) and tomb of jade (will) and Kukan Do (will) to stun the mob. You are literally a stunning machine at this point and have the tools to stun against the mobs lowest save - and at range if needed.

All in all - I like the PRE and I'm happy with it - the only thing that I would have liked to see added is an increase to the times on our buffs per tier. I am approaching this as a light based monk (LN so I could switch to dark with a feat swap) and I enjoy the buffs and the 'skirmish' nature of the combat - I like having tools that help the party at my disposal and healing ability. It does feel good to have added tools which make a difference (stuns) that no one else has (will save stuns). I know it's not a max dps monk build - but then again who would play light for max dps - from that assumption I'm saying the PRE is almost a no-brainer for a light monk and I'm not sure why someone would *not* want it.

Thoughts?

[k1ngp1n]

Dismissal - this is excellent for vale quests - not so much elsewhere, but still nice.

See that elemental over there? BAI!!!!!!

[12floz]

Not to mention the DR bypass effects are pretty amaizing as well. Im a dark monk because of my play style, but there is nothing wrong with light monks. The only people who have problems with it are the min/maxxers that shoulda rolled a kensai warrior.

[FuzzyDuck81]

from a min/maxing point of view, i think dark monk is probably still better...

But as someone who plays a lot of alts (meaning resources are somewhat spread thin) & doesnt like to grind for the top-end gear the extra survivability, more stunning options & the ability to bypass the majority of DR with only easily-available gear.. its great

[12floz]

from a min/maxing point of view, i think dark monk is probably still better...

But as someone who plays a lot of alts (meaning resources are somewhat spread thin) & doesnt like to grind for the top-end gear the extra survivability, more stunning options & the ability to bypass the majority of DR with only easily-available gear.. its great

Better is all perspective. I like dark as well, but them **** light monks can have 6 epic mobs incapacitated before you exhale that drag off your cigarette lol. Im just saying both paths are very viable. =)

[Tobril]

Thoughts of a Shintao monk who only runs shroud, ToD, and epics: (in no particular order)

"No one" takes the raise dead line as it is mostly junk and raise clikies are not that hard to make.

The smite is terrible and actually lowers DPS.

Dark monks may do slightly more DPS but lack the extreme CC ability of the Shintao.

Shintao is ridiculously powerful and any light monk that doesn't take the PrE is not coming anywhere near their full potential.

[ckorik]

The smite is terrible and actually lowers DPS.

So if I'm going for a FoL finisher - you are saying I'm better off doing FoL (no dps) to trigger the finish than smite?

Add to that I'm thinking you want Jade Strike (light move) on the mob for the 10% dps increase - and you want FoL on the mob for the heal on hit - why not toss a third light move for the heal?

I'm *assuming* you want the heal to go off - in which case the smite gives you a dps light move.

I'm *not* saying smite is better than an elemental strike - what I'm saying is if you are chaining a FoL finish it is a dps increase in most cases over the other light moves available.

[Tobril]

So if I'm going for a FoL finisher - you are saying I'm better off doing FoL (no dps) to trigger the finish than smite?

Add to that I'm thinking you want Jade Strike (light move) on the mob for the 10% dps increase - and you want FoL on the mob for the heal on hit - why not toss a third light move for the heal?

I'm *assuming* you want the heal to go off - in which case the smite gives you a dps light move.

I'm *not* saying smite is better than an elemental strike - what I'm saying is if you are chaining a FoL finish it is a dps increase in most cases over the other light moves available.

I have better things to do than throw a rather ineffective heal on the party, plus my monk is usually madstoned.

Void/Elemental strikes proc on the off hand, whereas the light smite does not.

Void IV, Earth IV, Earth III, Fists of Iron, Earth Finisher, and Sun or Wind strike is about all I have time for between needing to restun a monster. (provided they survived several thousand points of damage plus the rest of your party)

Keep in mind though this attitude is due to my playstyle/needs. Your needs are likely different.

[ckorik]

Fair enough - I actually end up using stun/ele attacks on trash - I guess my thoughts were more on boss mobs (harry for instance) where I'm already tossing out jade strike to keep 10% dps increase up for the entire raid. As he's unstunnable I was thinking it was good use of Ki.

[whomhead]

The smite is terrible and actually lowers DPS.

I'm curious about this. Does it lower DPS because you don't get an off-hand attack with it? On stunned mobs I see it hit for some pretty impressive numbers, so am having a hard time seeing how it lowers DPS. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as to the reasoning.

[Tobril]

I'm curious about this. Does it lower DPS because you don't get an off-hand attack with it? On stunned mobs I see it hit for some pretty impressive numbers, so am having a hard time seeing how it lowers DPS. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as to the reasoning.

Pretty much what you said.

The extra smite damage isn't as much as a regular hit. (counting ring bursts, elemental/void strike, etc)

[QuantumFX]

Well, my only problem with monks is the lack of basic enhancements at levels 1-3, a thin amount of enhancements at levels 4-6 and then a glut of enhancements that you can’t afford because you had to waste action points on stuff like Human Versatility. (Translation: The enhancement chain prereqs for monks are borked and the devs don’t understand this.)

Dismissing Strike: Is actually much more useful than most players think. It can banish creatures with a 25+ HD. It’s a lot of fun in the Reaver Raid.

Tomb of Jade: It’s not just a stun. It stops elementals and undead in their tracks too. Very useful in epics. (It too is fun in the Reaver Raid. “Did someone just cast stoneskin on an air elemental?”)

[ckorik]

I didn't know that about dismissing strike. That's actually handy to know.

Thanks and +rep

[Mistycball]

Thanks for this threat it helps me to decide to do my 3rd TR on a shintao stunner monk.

[AzraelDB]

Three words:

I LOVE SHINTAO!

Okay, now for the breakdown:

DR breaking: Slap on a ToD Holy Burst ring and go to town. Even better, get the Shintao Set from ToD/Amrath and break any DR that isn't Mithral/Slashing/Piercing/Anarchic (of which there are 4-5 mob types).

Smite Tainted Creature: avg +40 damage (pre-crit) on Undead and Outsiders? Works on Double/Triple-Strike? Gimme more of that! Vorpal Jade Tomb? Yes, please!

Jade Strike: Ooh, look. More Crits and Damage. Happy ^_^. Crit-strike Jade Tomb. Gotta love those autocrits.

Dismissing Strike: Absolute awesome! The only mobs I haven't seen it work on are either Red/Purple Named or Warded. Great against eles, not so hot on devils, but that's what...

Tomb of Jade: ... is for. Autocrit city on Devils/Undead/Outsiders. Nothing like making enemy topiaries in the Shroud/Amrath/wherever.

Kukan-Do: THIS IS SO BROKEN! Stunners increase DC. Cha mod increase DC. Even a Cha-dump monk with a +6 Cha item can get a 41 DC for this ability. It has a range comparable to most ray attacks and goes through walls (try it in PvP, tick off your friends).

If you are a Light Monk and don't have this PrE, you may want to talk to Fred.

Just my 2cp.

[ekniff]

I really really REALLY like how there is such a strong case for both Dark and Light side. This is good balance.

[Carpone]

Monk Jade Strike:
Now this is nice - something that I use end game. 10% more physical dps - 25% fort reduction (which stacks with the rogue opportunist feat) - usable on bosses and undead. Oh and did I mention it's a will save? This is usually the weakest save on tough as nails mobs.

Jade Strike doesn't work in the one place you really want it to: Tower of Despair. When you're running elite and going for the extra chest, -25% fort on Suulo would be awesome.

Shintao is a great first life path, until you get a ToD ring unlocked with Holy Burst. After that, 5.25 SA damage per hit (50% fort) and 32 DPS from Touch of Death are much more attractive.