New spell crit system affects non-persistent spells?

[TechNoFear]

as i said in my original thread aswell drop it, and read the first one again, the first one also had more hits than just 1 per spell ur maths are wrong not mine as youre disregarding some critical hits from my first one, on top of that im actually favoring the new chance system a bit as you see since cast number 9 to 15 there are no more 10 monsters already, there are less and u still critical 1 of the remaining ones which ofc is not 10% anymore, its bigger.

Your first example has 121 hits generating 15 crits in total or a crit percentage of 12.4% (the first 50 hits only produce 5 crits, not the expected 9)

Your second example has 11 casts generating 2 crits (or 110 hits generating 20 crits) which is a 18.2% crit chance.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that these two percentages are not the same and so make your 'example' meaningless?

[TechNoFear]

You appear to be mistaking the average for the expected outcome. They are different.

Where have I used the average in those calcs?

[Matuse]

System comparison with a 10% crit percentage, with a 100/300 damage spell on a monster with 300 hp (since that seems to be the way of things in this thread). Current System:

Possibility 1 (and statistically, the most likely):

Cast #1:
Monster 1 takes 100
Monster 2 takes 100
Monster 3 takes 100
Monster 4 takes 100
Monster 5 takes 100
Monster 6 takes 100
Monster 7 takes 100
Monster 8 takes 100
Monster 9 takes 100
Monster 10 takes 100

Cast #2:
Monster 1 takes 100
Monster 2 takes 100
Monster 3 takes 100
Monster 4 takes 100
Monster 5 takes 100
Monster 6 takes 100
Monster 7 takes 100
Monster 8 takes 100
Monster 9 takes 100
Monster 10 takes 100

Cast #3:
Monster 1 takes 100 and dies
Monster 2 takes 100 and dies
Monster 3 takes 100 and dies
Monster 4 takes 100 and dies
Monster 5 takes 100 and dies
Monster 6 takes 100 and dies
Monster 7 takes 100 and dies
Monster 8 takes 100 and dies
Monster 9 takes 100 and dies
Monster 10 takes 100 and dies

Possibility 2 (non-statistically, the one you notice the most):

Cast #1:
Monster 1 takes 100
Monster 2 takes 100
Monster 3 takes 100
Monster 4 takes 100
Monster 5 takes 100
Monster 6 takes 100
Monster 7 takes 100
Monster 8 takes 100
Monster 9 takes 100
Monster 10 takes 100

Cast #2:
Monster 1 takes 100
Monster 2 takes 100
Monster 3 takes 100
Monster 4 takes 100
Monster 5 takes 100
Monster 6 takes 100
Monster 7 takes 100
Monster 8 takes 100
Monster 9 takes 100
Monster 10 takes 100

Cast #3: -SPELL CRIT-
Monster 1 takes 300 and dies
Monster 2 takes 300 and dies
Monster 3 takes 300 and dies
Monster 4 takes 300 and dies
Monster 5 takes 300 and dies
Monster 6 takes 300 and dies
Monster 7 takes 300 and dies
Monster 8 takes 300 and dies
Monster 9 takes 300 and dies
Monster 10 takes 300 and dies

In the new system, castings 1&2 are extremely likely to weed out a victim, thus reducing the possibility of incoming damage to the party, or maybe letting Monsters #11 and #12 crowd into the AOE and get thumped themselves.

Obviously people will scream about the sky falling under any circumstances, but this one is a lot more childish than most.

[Legendary_Agent]

Your first example has 121 hits generating 15 crits in total or a crit percentage of 12.4% (the first 50 hits only produce 5 crits, not the expected 9)

Your second example has 11 casts generating 2 crits (or 110 hits generating 20 crits) which is a 18.2% crit chance.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that these two percentages are not the same and so make your 'example' meaningless?

sigh.. can u please make up ur mind and stick on 1 thread instead of double posting in 2 threads? ive already explained why ure wrong to think that way in the first thread, read it there.

[Tumarek]

Very well said except for the end game, ppl used to laugh at me when i used damage spells instead of whails in shroud....

Shroud endgame? Naaa...

[Legendary_Agent]

Shroud endgame? Naaa...

lol why ppl keep saying shround isnt end game? it looks pretty end game for me, sure not the hardest one around but still pretty hard on elite

[lobode]

It doesn't change anything. It sucks that no more crit fishing on bosses but other than that no difference. Normally better off with insta death than damage. And in those spots where you need damage DOTs are better.

[Legendary_Agent]

It doesn't change anything. It sucks that no more crit fishing on bosses but other than that no difference. Normally better off with insta death than damage. And in those spots where you need damage DOTs are better.

it has already been proven that it nerfs the one tick aoe spells, so yes this change a things a bit.

[kernal42]

Taking one or two more minutes to kill epic red-nameds is not cool either, but I can live with that

Single-target dps is wholly unaffected by the change.

[sirdanile]

And we needed ANOTHER thread on this why?

[Legendary_Agent]

Single-target dps is wholly unaffected by the change.

hes prolly talkin bout crit fishing

[PopeJual]

lol why ppl keep saying shround isnt end game? it looks pretty end game for me, sure not the hardest one around but still pretty hard on elite

They keep saying that Shroud isn't endgame because you can sleepwalk your way through it at cap.

If 2/3 of your party is drunk and the remainder of your party is stoned and it's a pug where at least 1/2 of the people don't have any reputation and you still complete it with 0 deaths (other than the trip to the moon), then it's probably not endgame.

Abbot is closer to endgame than the Shroud. Heck, even Hound is closer to the mythical "endgame" than Shroud.


If you can make a significant contribution to a raid at level 14, then it's probably not endgame.


Edit: Also, this won't be a drastic change for most casters in a large majority of circumstances. If you want to damage your enemies quickly, then you can still do so effectively. If you want to damage your enemies efficiently, then you're still going to cast Wall of Fire instead of whatever single tick AoE you're thinking of.

[ToKu]

AoE is not doomed.... critfishing is though.... DHOOOOOOOOMED!

[Legendary_Agent]

They keep saying that Shroud isn't endgame because you can sleepwalk your way through it at cap.

If 2/3 of your party is drunk and the remainder of your party is stoned and it's a pug where at least 1/2 of the people don't have any reputation and you still complete it with 0 deaths (other than the trip to the moon), then it's probably not endgame.

Abbot is closer to endgame than the Shroud. Heck, even Hound is closer to the mythical "endgame" than Shroud.


If you can make a significant contribution to a raid at level 14, then it's probably not endgame.


Edit: Also, this won't be a drastic change for most casters in a large majority of circumstances. If you want to damage your enemies quickly, then you can still do so effectively. If you want to damage your enemies efficiently, then you're still going to cast Wall of Fire instead of whatever single tick AoE you're thinking of.

shroud is level 17 if im correct and level 19 at elite, in elite mode not many ppl dare t otry it because they most of the time fail at the portals. its easy on normal but not easy at all on elite.

Also damage ur enemies quickly is never done with wall of fire, its done with instant 1 tick aoe spells which are the spells that are nerfed right now, aoe timed spells benefit from this change unless ure crit fishing.

[havokiano]

I read a couple posts that seem to suggest that the new spell crit system will affect spells like fireball. Is this the case? If so, I have to strongly protest.

I think that one-off spells should have the same damage for everything in their blast radius - either you nailed a crit or not. Can you imagine having a pack of 10 trolls chasing you around, and having to hit 10 crit fireballs before they all died?

I guess this is one way to sell more SP pots off the DDO store...

if you buy pots in the DDO store reroll.

[TechNoFear]

shroud is level 17 if im correct and level 19 at elite, in elite mode not many ppl dare t otry it because they most of the time fail at the portals. its easy on normal but not easy at all on elite.

The only time you use instant AoE in the Shroud on elite (if at all) is on trash in parts 1, 2 and the very begining of 4.
The named should not be close enough to use instant AoE on or their special abilities will be multiplied (and single target DPS is not changed).

If you have trouble with the trash in those parts on elite, I don't think you are going to complete.

Also damage ur enemies quickly is never done with wall of fire, its done with instant 1 tick aoe spells

If you want it dead quickly, bring melee DPS.....

IME instant AoE the last resort behind insta-death, CC + melee DPS and DoT. I use it in combo with the others most of the time.

[PopeJual]

shroud is level 17 if im correct and level 19 at elite, in elite mode not many ppl dare t otry it because they most of the time fail at the portals. its easy on normal but not easy at all on elite.

Shroud is level 17 on Normal and 19 on Elite. It's still not all that difficult. People don't skip Elite on Shroud because it's difficult. They skip it because you don't get any better loot on Elite than you do on Normal, so there's no particular reason to do it on Elite.

Normal: a few small ingredients, a few medium ingredients, 1.5 Large ingredients, maybe a couple of shards for the group.

Elite: a few small ingredients, a few medium ingredients, 1.5 Large ingredients, maybe a couple of shards for the group.

Also damage ur enemies quickly is never done with wall of fire, its done with instant 1 tick aoe spells which are the spells that are nerfed right now, aoe timed spells benefit from this change unless ure crit fishing.

First off, I didn't say that Wall of Fire is quick. I said that Wall of Fire is efficient.

I don't care about damaging my enemies quickly. I care about killing my enemies quickly. At least in the Shroud, I do that with Wail of the Banshee because 1 Wail kills everything at the portal almost all of the time. If an enemy happens to make its save, then I bust out a Finger of Death.

You mentioned that you use AoE damage spells to kill your enemies at the portals as if this were some kind of amazing innovation. It isn't. People use AoE damage spells on the trash because their DC or Spell Penetration isn't high enough to kill what they're trying to Wail.

I agree that instant AoE damage spells will be less effective against a pack of enemies after U8 drops, I really don't see that as a significant problem. Pretty much everything in the game falls into three categories:

1) can kill with instant kill spells
2) vulnerable to Wall of Fire (i.e. Undead)
3) has so many HP that you wouldn't even consider using inefficient single tick damage spells on it as a primary source of damage.

Off the top of my head, the only enemies that I can think of that don't fall into one of those categories are non-epic Golems. We're getting Ice Storm in U8 to deal with Golems. Sure, Ice Storm has been dialed back significantly from its lofty heights in Lama-land testing, but I'm still looking forward to trying it out on Golems.

Edit: If you want to kill trash REALLY quickly, the most effective spell you can often use is Mass Hold Monster, not Acid Blast or Cone of Cold.

[Riorik]

shroud is level 17 if im correct and level 19 at elite, in elite mode not many ppl dare t otry it because they most of the time fail at the portals. its easy on normal but not easy at all on elite.

Also damage ur enemies quickly is never done with wall of fire, its done with instant 1 tick aoe spells which are the spells that are nerfed right now, aoe timed spells benefit from this change unless ure crit fishing.

Fail at the portals?
You sure you're an end game player?

[Emili]

shroud is level 17 if im correct and level 19 at elite, in elite mode not many ppl dare t otry it because they most of the time fail at the portals. its easy on normal but not easy at all on elite.

Also damage ur enemies quickly is never done with wall of fire, its done with instant 1 tick aoe spells which are the spells that are nerfed right now, aoe timed spells benefit from this change unless ure crit fishing.

To be honest I've seen a failure at portals on norm once since the early days of shroud come out... I realized the reason was a pug wizard with nearly no DC to speak of so a couple portal keepers made it in. So we turned around went right back in (same wizard) and I sent tell to a cleric to take care of trash with him.

Casters use insta-kill spells on that trash for a reason - it's only trash - a wail here and a fod there and it's simple as pie.

I run elite shroud from time to time - more for guild morale/favor.

My Last run of a shroud elite was on my then level 17 TR to regain some of her previous favour (am particular bout having favour capped toons I have to have everything done elite/epic least once on them). The first three parts feel no different than any normal run <- this is true every time and part 4/5 were a little more than two rounds (just into three)... which I did not expect because the previous elite run (a couple months earlier) it was a one rounder where blades were not even close to comming in. Shourd is not normally run elite because the change loot table is not important there - people run it for ingredients and can get better non-crafted loot elsewhere.

Shroud actually is a bad example to support your statement ... part one the trash are cleared with insta death spells and part two is typically trash cleared by melee before the casters enter in it ... casters are normally assigned to the ele and crystal duty (both of which may be sub'd with melee for ele and a ranged character for crystal). Part 4/5 casters take the gnolls if it goes beyond a round and some burst DPS but typically still is the compound melee delivering the bulk of damage to Harry.

lol why ppl keep saying shround isnt end game? it looks pretty end game for me, sure not the hardest one around but still pretty hard on elite

The Damage spec'd caster best raid example is most likely Abbot...

I do not consider shroud as end game... is maybe a stepping stone to end game.

1. First the quest is only a 17-19 in level.
2. Interest in the shroud is slowly waining among the power gamers (they typically run speed runs for ingreds for money purposes or to recraft a temporary GS item)...

Note I said temporary - is not unusual nor surprising to see GS crafted items slowly antiquated as newer content rendering it middle tier in power... more and more shroud crafted gear is falling by way-side as better epic loot slowly replaces it (plain and simple). My shroud ingred bag is worth nearly 5 mill pp if I run a shroud is just for something to do... or help guildies get to the next tier of raiding level. We're dripping in GS and I'd prefer to be dripping in epic gear, as I'd rather see my guildies do so also.

Good example are Hound and VoD for instance - two raids which are newer than shroud but nearly all the gear antiquated by ToD and Epic gear replacements. At this stage there is nothing note-worthy among those loot tables where cannot get the bulk of better gear elsewhere.

End game for many would be ToD and Epic, i.e. eVoN 6, eDQ eChronoscope, etc...

... as for the spell crit, was a nice surprise to have a single blast spell crit on a group of mob esentially cleaning them all up but the new system does fall in line with placing the structure closer in line to that of melee and many other spell - more consistant. I've never been a crit fisher myself but I have in past used such occurance as a crit wall or crit BB to advantage when they occur. It is a fact however that the new system tends to use more SP, or garners one to utilize such more wisely.

[Matuse]

Had a lag burst come and disconnect 8 people in the group for nearly 10 minutes, and lag out the other 4. We still beat part 1...and yes, this was a PUG.

What kind of unimaginable level of suck is required to actually fail part 1 is beyond my comprehension.