Tested new Icestorm and Critical Mod

[sirgog]

It's been a while since I've leveled a caster, but at lvl 8 now on my TR'ed wizard, I'm generally pretty happy if I can fireball a room, kill 2 or 3 mobs and mop up the remaining ones with some melee or cheaper blasting (free MM from past life, or a wand). I know that in most cases I'd much rather deal with fewer monsters after a single cast most of the time than the occasional room clear, despite the incredible satisfaction that comes with clearing a whole room with one cast.

That's fine at 8, but at 14 or 17, wands and melee don't work too well to polish off monsters (which are also likely to be considerably more dangerous too).

I don't mind kiting six Stormcleave giants waiting for Cone of Cold to come off cooldown - kiting five Ghaele Eladrin and one Bralani Sorceror is a little more awkward. For this reason I would currently approach a room in Running with the Devils with a DBF, then if the DBF didn't crit, a Fireball, then if that didn't crit, whatever third spell would finish them off, whereas in Stormcleave (if I decided to approach the quest in nuking mode) I'd be fine to throw a Cone of Cold then use other spells to clean up.

[sephiroth1084]

That's fine at 8, but at 14 or 17, wands and melee don't work too well to polish off monsters (which are also likely to be considerably more dangerous too).

I don't mind kiting six Stormcleave giants waiting for Cone of Cold to come off cooldown - kiting five Ghaele Eladrin and one Bralani Sorceror is a little more awkward. For this reason I would currently approach a room in Running with the Devils with a DBF, then if the DBF didn't crit, a Fireball, then if that didn't crit, whatever third spell would finish them off, whereas in Stormcleave (if I decided to approach the quest in nuking mode) I'd be fine to throw a Cone of Cold then use other spells to clean up.

Like I said, it's been a while since I've leveled through that content on a caster, but I don't recall doing all that much nuking anyway. As it is, if stuff was likely to survive a single fireball or cone, I typically used firewall anyway. A little slow, but more mana efficient than any other strategy (perhaps not vs. certain things, such as bralani and eladrin, but in most other cases...).

I also do considerably less soloing than others do, I think. This, despite all the awful PUGs...part of what I enjoy about this game is its focus on grouping I guess. I'll refrain from commenting further until Elochka is a little higher, but I really don't recall having nuked all that much while leveling her last time.

[sirgog]

Like I said, it's been a while since I've leveled through that content on a caster, but I don't recall doing all that much nuking anyway. As it is, if stuff was likely to survive a single fireball or cone, I typically used firewall anyway. A little slow, but more mana efficient than any other strategy (perhaps not vs. certain things, such as bralani and eladrin, but in most other cases...).

I also do considerably less soloing than others do, I think. This, despite all the awful PUGs...part of what I enjoy about this game is its focus on grouping I guess. I'll refrain from commenting further until Elochka is a little higher, but I really don't recall having nuked all that much while leveling her last time.

I solo nuked on Myrmidral's last life (34 point WF sorc) most of the way to cap, grouping mostly for Elite difficulty content. That build was specced for nuking with a bit of CC and took only Trap the Soul for insta-death spells (as being WF without a Shroud/ToD charisma item, DCs were a little low). The toon wasn't geared - the best equipment I had was a Ring of Thelis and a tier 2 Greensteel SP item (crafted before getting the ring, back when Wizardry 6 was very rare)

I would hesitate to attempt some of the things I did in that life now.

[KajaGrae]

Wow, seems like the cheese cart needs to roll through.

Last time I checked, 3.5 rules didn't allow for spell crits AT ALL (cept maybe for rays I think). So I'm not exactly sure what the big deal is about. That's why they bang for 20d6 and save or die and what not. Hell, you are even getting LOADED dice on damage!

Not to mention the simple fact is that all this means is you don't whip through a single pull in one spell (oh noes! back to skill!) and that you can't farm up a crit wall for bosses. No biggie. You're still a caster, and still have the most powerful single shots in the game. I might be fairly new to DDO, but am not new to MMOs or D&D, the sky isn't falling, skill up son!

[FluffyCalico]

Wow, seems like the cheese cart needs to roll through.

Last time I checked, 3.5 rules didn't allow for spell crits AT ALL (cept maybe for rays I think). So I'm not exactly sure what the big deal is about. That's why they bang for 20d6 and save or die and what not. Hell, you are even getting LOADED dice on damage!

!

Show me in 3.5 PnP loot tables where a Mineral 2 is located in a level 16 dungeon for everyone to get by running it over and over and a dm that lets everyone in your party dual weild them. Yeah thats what I thought. And did your barb in the party have 90+ str in PnP?

[KajaGrae]

And you would be right, I can't.

But at L16 I also wouldn't have had a Wizard that could lob a fireball that came with +40% damage from enhancements and +75% damage from a clickie, and you for sure wouldn't see them dropping every spell Maximzed and Empowered or ever hit for ANY crit damage with ANY AoE spell.

That barb has to roll for a crit on every mob it tags with a Great Cleave individualy. It's not that far fectched to apply the rule to all AoE, and it isn't that big of a gimp. You might not drop 10 in one spell once in a while, but at least you can drop 1 or 2 everytime.

[Nyvn]

Wow, seems like the cheese cart needs to roll through.

Last time I checked, 3.5 rules didn't allow for spell crits AT ALL (cept maybe for rays I think). So I'm not exactly sure what the big deal is about. That's why they bang for 20d6 and save or die and what not. Hell, you are even getting LOADED dice on damage!

Not to mention the simple fact is that all this means is you don't whip through a single pull in one spell (oh noes! back to skill!) and that you can't farm up a crit wall for bosses. No biggie. You're still a caster, and still have the most powerful single shots in the game. I might be fairly new to DDO, but am not new to MMOs or D&D, the sky isn't falling, skill up son!

DDO ≠ D&D

One is role playing game designed for an active DM, one is a action RPG designed for a computer.

DDO monsters have inflated Hit Points and HD compared to D&D monsters. How often do you fight trash mobs with over 10k Hit points in a PnP campain? You might want to become a bit familiar with the subject before you start bashing on people.

[sephiroth1084]

And you would be right, I can't.

But at L16 I also wouldn't have had a Wizard that could lob a fireball that came with +40% damage from enhancements and +75% damage from a clickie, and you for sure wouldn't see them dropping every spell Maximzed and Empowered or ever hit for ANY crit damage with ANY AoE spell.

That barb has to roll for a crit on every mob it tags with a Great Cleave individualy. It's not that far fectched to apply the rule to all AoE, and it isn't that big of a gimp. You might not drop 10 in one spell once in a while, but at least you can drop 1 or 2 everytime.

The point being made was that DDO is its own beast, with its own balance and rules, separate from that of PnP. Trying to argue that, somehow, having spell crits altered for the worse (depending on outlook) is okay because you can't crit on a spell in PnP is silly. You can make that argument when everything else gets knocked back down to PnP standards.

[KajaGrae]

Yes the numbers are inflated all over compared to PnP, and yeah that claim may be over the top since it's not PnP, but as far as I can tell, melee still has to roll a separate attack for each target on a cleave, right?

If that's right, then why wouldn't it be fair for that rule to apply to an AoE spell?

[sephiroth1084]

Yes the numbers are inflated all over compared to PnP, and yeah that claim may be over the top since it's not PnP, but as far as I can tell, melee still has to roll a separate attack for each target on a cleave, right?

If that's right, then why wouldn't it be fair for that rule to apply to an AoE spell?

Actual mechanics on crits aside, melees have much more sustained DPS than casters even before considering the fact that melees are working with an unlimited resource while casters are not. That alone means that comparing the two in the way you're attempting to is entirely pointless. Not to mention that for most melees confirming a crit is a foregone conclusion whereas casters have to contend with resistances, saves, Evasion, targeting, obstructions...all of which reduce the effectiveness of caster nuking even more.

[Macroscian]

(I really did think spell crits was due to the mob failing a save and had nothing to do with the spell caster other than penetration. Getting back to the game basics may take ages *sigh* Good reading, keep discussing, perhaps there's more to learn.)

[hecate355]

You couldn't count on it before because you couldn't count on a crit.

sure you could have counted on it and we did, not talking about firewall, but chain lightning example stands, with investments into crit it critted often enough to expect for crit to blow away mob pack, after update tho, one crit sequence can snuff one mob, rest still stay around.

i dont see this as crit fishing either, i dont cast chain lighting repeatedly in HOPE to crit, just nowdays when it actually does, it has close to no benefit.

[Dmnqwk]

Hypothesis: Crits matter and this "nerf" is terrible...

Experiment:
We'll begin with a good old fireball, for nostalgia's sake. We're using it at level 10 vs some annoying bandits with 100hp each, 5 of the rotters.

Now, classic fireballs deal 10d6 damage at 10th level... but at some point they modified them to deal 10d3+30 instead

So, using an example:
Assume 20% crit (slightly high but it's nice and round!) for triple damage.
Assume 10d6 vs 10d3+30 with a 100% multiplier (again, round numbers)

10d6 averages 35 damage, 70 with multiplier.
Min 20, Max 120, average 70.... so assume 5 hits of 20, 45, 70, 95, 120

The mobs have 100 hit points (Fighters with no con 10hp/level) and never make a saving throw!

If a crit is rolled... 4 mobs die, 1 mob live
If a non-crit is rolled... 1 mob dies, 4 mobs live.
3 mobs can be killed by critting... so if we use a 20% chance in this scenario there's a 60% chance the crit is not wasted.
So in 5 runs of the scenario (seeing the crit hit a different person each time) we'll find 2 crits wasted, 3 crits kill people.
This means we'll see 5 people killed regardless of crits and we'll see 3 people killed because of crits so a total of 8/25 die to the fire!

Now... if we look crits being rolled per spell not per infliction we'll find 5 people are killed regardless.... and then on the crit fireball the 20 damage person still lives... so 3 additional people are poofed (the 45,70,95 as the 120 dies anyway) so a total of 8/25 die to the fire!

But... if we change the parameters for the damage buff to weighted dice...

10d3+3 now averages 50, doubled by potency and enhancements as before to 100 damage min 80 max 120 still.
The 5 damaging numbers are now 80, 90, 100, 110, 120.

On a non-crit 3 mobs die, 2 mobs live
On a crit EVERYBODY dies.
With individual crits... 40% chance it's not wasted (as 60% die regardless)
5 runs of the scenario sees 15 people killed automatically and then 2 extra's killed so 17/25 die because of the dice buffs.
In a crit rolled for spell not individual the numbers dont alter (because we're running this 5 times you may have noticed the numbers dont change hahaha!) so 17/25 killed.

Regarding spellpoint conservation:
Scenario a) 20 45 70 95 120 are the options for the damage... with 2 fireballs of the 25 combinations... 19 will result in smooshy deaths (20+20, 20+45, 20+70, 45+20, 45+45, 70+20 are the 6 that wont)
Scenario b) 80 90 100 110 120... 2 fireballs, everything dies!
Of the 25 combinations in scenario a... assuming 20% crit still (giving us 625 combinations due to crit possibilities on each fireball being 1 in 5, as I said simple maths) we find that only the 20+20 option requires a double crit to succeed. So 19*25/625 dont require crits 1/625 requires a double crit and the remainder need 1 of the 2 fireballs to crit.
So... 5 combinations become 125 combinations when we look at whether a or b crit... and if neither crits (chance neither is a crit is 80%*80% so 64%) we see 36% of the 125 combinations are boomsmooshes due to the crit... simplified 45/125. so 19*25(475) + 45 = 520/625... downgrading to the original 25 we find 20.8 deaths occur... so crits account for 1.8 deaths of 25 people... (7.2% of deaths caused by a 20% crit chance)

Kinda sucks people get worked up about crits when truthfully... they do less than you think.


Summary:
Crits play less of a role than you are aware, random dice see to that.
Weighted dice buff was a far more useful addition and plays a more significant role than crits.

Thanks for reading!
P.S. This is simplified maths and doesn't take into account saving throws, concentration checks forced by not auto critting etc... but it's a solid foundation to show why crits matter less.

[Legendary_Agent]

Hypothesis: Crits matter and this "nerf" is terrible...

Experiment:
We'll begin with a good old fireball, for nostalgia's sake. We're using it at level 10 vs some annoying bandits with 100hp each, 5 of the rotters.

Now, classic fireballs deal 10d6 damage at 10th level... but at some point they modified them to deal 10d3+30 instead

So, using an example:
Assume 20% crit (slightly high but it's nice and round!) for triple damage.
Assume 10d6 vs 10d3+30 with a 100% multiplier (again, round numbers)

10d6 averages 35 damage, 70 with multiplier.
Min 20, Max 120, average 70.... so assume 5 hits of 20, 45, 70, 95, 120

The mobs have 100 hit points (Fighters with no con 10hp/level) and never make a saving throw!

If a crit is rolled... 4 mobs die, 1 mob live
If a non-crit is rolled... 1 mob dies, 4 mobs live.
3 mobs can be killed by critting... so if we use a 20% chance in this scenario there's a 60% chance the crit is not wasted.
So in 5 runs of the scenario (seeing the crit hit a different person each time) we'll find 2 crits wasted, 3 crits kill people.
This means we'll see 5 people killed regardless of crits and we'll see 3 people killed because of crits so a total of 8/25 die to the fire!

Now... if we look crits being rolled per spell not per infliction we'll find 5 people are killed regardless.... and then on the crit fireball the 20 damage person still lives... so 3 additional people are poofed (the 45,70,95 as the 120 dies anyway) so a total of 8/25 die to the fire!

But... if we change the parameters for the damage buff to weighted dice...

10d3+3 now averages 50, doubled by potency and enhancements as before to 100 damage min 80 max 120 still.
The 5 damaging numbers are now 80, 90, 100, 110, 120.

On a non-crit 3 mobs die, 2 mobs live
On a crit EVERYBODY dies.
With individual crits... 40% chance it's not wasted (as 60% die regardless)
5 runs of the scenario sees 15 people killed automatically and then 2 extra's killed so 17/25 die because of the dice buffs.
In a crit rolled for spell not individual the numbers dont alter (because we're running this 5 times you may have noticed the numbers dont change hahaha!) so 17/25 killed.

Regarding spellpoint conservation:
Scenario a) 20 45 70 95 120 are the options for the damage... with 2 fireballs of the 25 combinations... 19 will result in smooshy deaths (20+20, 20+45, 20+70, 45+20, 45+45, 70+20 are the 6 that wont)
Scenario b) 80 90 100 110 120... 2 fireballs, everything dies!
Of the 25 combinations in scenario a... assuming 20% crit still (giving us 625 combinations due to crit possibilities on each fireball being 1 in 5, as I said simple maths) we find that only the 20+20 option requires a double crit to succeed. So 19*25/625 dont require crits 1/625 requires a double crit and the remainder need 1 of the 2 fireballs to crit.
So... 5 combinations become 125 combinations when we look at whether a or b crit... and if neither crits (chance neither is a crit is 80%*80% so 64%) we see 36% of the 125 combinations are boomsmooshes due to the crit... simplified 45/125. so 19*25(475) + 45 = 520/625... downgrading to the original 25 we find 20.8 deaths occur... so crits account for 1.8 deaths of 25 people... (7.2% of deaths caused by a 20% crit chance)

Kinda sucks people get worked up about crits when truthfully... they do less than you think.


Summary:
Crits play less of a role than you are aware, random dice see to that.
Weighted dice buff was a far more useful addition and plays a more significant role than crits.

Thanks for reading!
P.S. This is simplified maths and doesn't take into account saving throws, concentration checks forced by not auto critting etc... but it's a solid foundation to show why crits matter less.

thanks for your time and effort but ive already explained this and showed how old critical system actually mattered and the new one simply is not worth it unless ure focused on single target spells and firewall.

Frankly this game has some serious balance issues, melee are kings in here in damage while casters are constantly getting nerfed, have no way to compete with melee in high end quests and worst of all casters have non regenerating mana while melee couldnt care less about things like those, ran out of action boost? big deal... the damage is still great, monks domt even care about shrines and yet casters are the weakest in damage with limited number of casts and are very dependant of shrines.

Thats why the first time ive heard that this game does not regenerate mana over time i had a feeling from that day casters werent much in this game appart from support, after playing few raids and epics that feeling turns out it was true.

[FluffyCalico]

Thats why the first time ive heard that this game does not regenerate mana over time i had a feeling from that day casters werent much in this game appart from support, after playing few raids and epics that feeling turns out it was true.

Guess thats why most the epics and raids that are being soloed are being soloed by casters...cause they are so useless.

[Dmnqwk]

Clerics are not dps
Casters are not dps
Bards are not dps

They can be made to be dps, but they are not inherently dps.

Each group requires the following to succeed:
The ability to survive damage
The ability to inflict damage

If your group cannot inflict damage you cannot win
If your group cannot survive damage... you may still win.

Taking the mentality "casters suffer because of the crit nerfs so they cannot deal damage boo hoo" is bad.

Haste, Hold, Blur, Wail, Summon Monster etc are all designed to enhance a groups capabilities to survive.

Imagine if a caster could deal as much damage as a barb.. why would you EVER bring a barb?

Seriously... a lot of games make melee suffer but DDO has actually got it right, casters deal enough damage when need be but realistically it's their other benefits that are there to give them meaning.

I feel sorry for you doing epics and then realising casters are not dps... too much world of warcraft perhaps... but don't feel casters are getting the short straw.

Crits are fun, but balancing around crits is not. The "nerf" is irrelevant.

Btw, I levelled a dex-based Rogue first before realising this game overvalues strength and undervales dex due to damage and ac... you are correct balance in this game is kinda bad. Just gotta get on and roll str-based barbs if you wanna dps!

[Legendary_Agent]

Guess thats why most the epics and raids that are being soloed are being soloed by casters...cause they are so useless.

ive seen all that crappy multiclassing soloing builds, im not impressed, besides try that build on a team ull be probably kicked out for beying that useless at dungeon scaling :P

[Cartheron]

Hypothesis: Crits matter and this "nerf" is terrible...

Experiment:
We'll begin with a good old fireball, for nostalgia's sake. We're using it at level 10 vs some annoying bandits with 100hp each, 5 of the rotters.

Now, classic fireballs deal 10d6 damage at 10th level... but at some point they modified them to deal 10d3+30 instead

So, using an example:
Assume 20% crit (slightly high but it's nice and round!) for triple damage.

(snip)


Now... if we look crits being rolled per spell not per infliction we'll find 5 people are killed regardless.... and then on the crit fireball the 20 damage person still lives... so 3 additional people are poofed (the 45,70,95 as the 120 dies anyway) so a total of 8/25 die to the fire!

But... if we change the parameters for the damage buff to weighted dice...

10d3+3 now averages 50, doubled by potency and enhancements as before to 100 damage min 80 max 120 still.
The 5 damaging numbers are now 80, 90, 100, 110, 120.

(snip)

Well, this whole discusion doesnt make any sense if you are killing all group with 1 single non metamagized cast. But this mean you are playing casual, maybe solo normal. We are talking here about elite quests mostly, when you need more casts than 2 to kill the group, critting using older rules will net you some sp, using new rules will give you nothing - if Im agroing 20 mobs and I know I need 5 casts without a crit to kill them, that means Im prepared to manage their aggro for time needed to cast those spells. Reducing number of mobs to 15 before final casts means nothing to me - if 20 mobs would be to much for me, I would aggro 15 in the first place! Now killing them in 3 cast not in 5 is 160sp not spend, it adds up.

(snip)


Imagine if a caster could deal as much damage as a barb.. why would you EVER bring a barb?

(snip)

True that. Casters will never get similar single target dps as melees. That is obvious, we are not asking about that. We are just saying that our fairly low damage output was made even lower with this change (only regarding instanukes, not persisntent DoTs). I dont think it was a needed change - anyone complained about extremally high casters dps output? Never noticed that.

Alot of posters dont consider using insta aoe nukes as viable strategy. I dont agree with that, but its not a topic of this discusion. The thing is - damage output of insta aoe nukes were lowered by this change, regardless what you personaly think about using this strategy. Its not "a sky is falling" type of change, but it matters for those of us who think that the biggest accomplishment for them is soloing a very difficult, elite quest without using resources - others can chug sp pots and wont notice anything.

[pHo3nix]

ive seen all that crappy multiclassing soloing builds, im not impressed, besides try that build on a team ull be probably kicked out for beying that useless at dungeon scaling :P

Elite difficulty does not scale, and i got no problems at all soloing elite quests at lvl with my tukaw build(http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901). Is it a "crappy" multiclassing soloing build in your opinion?

[mystafyi]

Elite difficulty does not scale

I guess you have never been to amarath.....