Tested new Icestorm and Critical Mod

[shagath]

What I found useful is to actually cast chain lightning once and see if it crits, if it crits, it really helps party kill a group of monsters but if it doesn't -> back to CC.

After this nerf, this one cast is never worth the sp so it's only CC. You have better luck being useful with prismatic spray than with any other offensive spell against monsters with a lot of hp. Caster DPS needed a boost, not a nerf. Sorcerer was already very weak when compared to wizard because of prestiges that fits current state of DDO.. This hurts them even more.

I like this 'count crit for each tick' for DoT spells like firewall and ice storm but it's not really a way to go with insta-damage spells.

You have trained yourself with fire. You cast a fireball. You got it just right and it burns a bit more than usual. <- Sounds logical but how is only one monster getting the real burn logical?

[Nyvn]

Agreed.... but instant AoE spells were never particularly mana efficient anyway, so it isn't as if this will be a huge blow to casters.
We'll all get used to it in no time flat.

So what damage spells should casters use in Amrath?

Of course it's not a case of "the sky is falling" but this change does negatively affect instant AE spells. I'm not sure why this was changed for instant AE spells. I don't see how making critical spells nearly worthless for instant AE spells helps the state of the game. Casters already do poor damage over the course of a quest compared to melee.

I mean are casters running around in Casual quests killing groups of monsters with one cast of Cone of Cold really hurting the game?

[shagath]

So what damage spells should casters use in Amrath?

As a sorcerer, I can spare AP to get full acid/lightning enhancement line(done this in 3 of my past lives already). You can make chain lightning crit 1700dmg on a group of monsters with eardweller, around 1500dmg without. I think that's very good damage against a group of monsters.. It's not impossible to crit twice in a row either. With this new method, not very likely to kill group of 3000hp fire-immune monsters with 2 casts. And problem isn't even killing but contributing. You don't need to even kill them but lowering group of elite orthons hp 1500+ is always helpful.

[Legendary_Agent]

Agreed.... but instant AoE spells were never particularly mana efficient anyway, so it isn't as if this will be a huge blow to casters.
We'll all get used to it in no time flat.

Ok, finally so ppl wont act dumb on me going like huh?! how?! what?! i dont get it.. its the same etc...:


With the new System:
1500hp
10 enemies, cast number 1:
1-1400
2-1400
3-1400
4-1400
5-1400
6-1400
7-1400
8-1400
9-1400
10 critical-1200
___________
10 enemies, cast number 2:
1-1300
2-1300
3-1300
4-1300
5-1300
6-1300
7-1300
8-1300
9-critical -1100
10-1100
___________

10 enemies, cast number 3:
1-1200
2-1000-critical
3-1200
4-1200
5-1200
6-1200
7-1200
8-1200
9-1000
10-1000
____________
10 enemies, cast number 4:
1-1100
2-700-critical
3-1100
4-1100
5-1100
6-1100
7-900
8-1100
9-900
10-900
____________
10 enemies, cast number 5:
1-1000
2-600
3-1000
4-800-critical
5-1000
6-1000
7-800
8-1000
9-800
10-800
____________
10 enemies, cast number 6:
1-900
2-500
3-900
4-500-critical
5-900
6-900
7-700
8-900
9-700
10-500-critical
____________
10 enemies, cast number 7:
1-800
2-400
3-800
4-400
5-800
6-800
7-600
8-800
9-400-critical
10-400
____________
10 enemies, cast number 8:
1-700
2-300
3-700
4-300
5-500-critical
6-700
7-500
8-700
9-300
10-300
____________
10 enemies, cast number 9:
1-600
2-200
3-600
4-dead-critical
5-400
6-600
7-400
8-600
9-200
10-200
____________
10 enemies, cast number 10:
1-500
2-100
3-300-critical
4-dead
5-300
6-500
7-300
8-500
9-100
10-100
____________
10 enemies, cast number 11:
1-400
2-dead
3-200
4-dead
5-200
6-400
7-200
8-400
9-dead
10-dead-critical
____________
10 enemies, cast number 12:
1-300
2-dead
3-100
4-dead
5-100-critical
6-300
7-100
8-300
9-100
10-dead
____________
10 enemies, cast number 13:
1-200
2-dead
3-critical-dead
4-dead
5-dead
6-200
7-dead
8-200
9-dead-critical
10-dead
____________
10 enemies, cast number 14:
1-100
2-dead
3-dead
4-dead
5-dead
6-100
7-dead
8-100
9-dead
10-dead
____________
10 enemies, cast number 15:
1-dead
2-dead
3-dead
4-dead
5-dead
6-dead
7-dead
8-dead
9-dead
10-dead
____________

And this is a positive scenario.
Truth: you will waste as much mana as you would with critical chance beying 0 to kill mobs with new system unless you roll 2 lucks, 1 luck for the critical hit and another luck for hitting different enemy each critical hit.

[Legendary_Agent]

With the Current System:
10 enemies, cast number 1:
1-1400
2-1400
3-1400
4-1400
5-1400
6-1400
7-1400
8-1400
9-1400
10-1400
____________

10 enemies, cast number 2:
1-1300
2-1300
3-1300
4-1300
5-1300
6-1300
7-1300
8-1300
9-1300
10-1300
____________

10 enemies, cast number 3:
1-1200
2-1200
3-1200
4-1200
5-1200
6-1200
7-1200
8-1200
9-1200
10-1200
____________

10 enemies, cast number 4:
critical(
1-900
2-900
3-900
4-900
5-900
6-900
7-900
8-900
9-900
10-900
)
____________
10 enemies, cast number 5:
1-800
2-800
3-800
4-800
5-800
6-800
7-800
8-800
9-800
10-800
____________

10 enemies, cast number 6:
1-700
2-700
3-700
4-700
5-700
6-700
7-700
8-700
9-700
10-700
____________

10 enemies, cast number 7:
1-600
2-600
3-600
4-600
5-600
6-600
7-600
8-600
9-600
10-600
____________

10 enemies, cast number 8:
1-500
2-500
3-500
4-500
5-500
6-500
7-500
8-500
9-500
10-500
____________

10 enemies, cast number 9:
1-400
2-400
3-400
4-400
5-400
6-400
7-400
8-400
9-400
10-400
____________

10 enemies, cast number 10:
critical(
1-100
2-100
3-100
4-100
5-100
6-100
7-100
8-100
9-100
10-100
)
____________


10 enemies, cast number 11:
1-dead
2-dead
3-dead
4-dead
5-dead
6-dead
7-dead
8-dead
9-dead
10-dead
____________
10 enemies, cast number 12:
Spared

10 enemies, cast number 13:
spared

10 enemies cast number 14:
spared

10 enemies cast number 15:
spared

And as for "getting used to it"
I dont think so mate, this is indeed a horrible new critical system compared to the old one, the only ppl who would trully benefit from this chance would be newbs with only firewall, ice storm or acid cloud as damage spell and nothing else, if u have 1 aoe single hit spell you will be nerfed, and i have many of those as i kill alot faster than a firewall especially in high level content.

When i first tought that this change would only be implemented in firewall i couldnt care less as i dont do critical fishing, but nerfind all aoe spells like that is just unnaceptable, we are useless enough at high level raids or missions.

[Nyvn]

As a sorcerer, I can spare AP to get full acid/lightning enhancement line(done this in 3 of my past lives already). You can make chain lightning crit 1700dmg on a group of monsters with eardweller, around 1500dmg without. I think that's very good damage against a group of monsters.. It's not impossible to crit twice in a row either. With this new method, not very likely to kill group of 3000hp fire-immune monsters with 2 casts. And problem isn't even killing but contributing. You don't need to even kill them but lowering group of elite orthons hp 1500+ is always helpful.

Exactly, persistent AE spells aren't the only spells casters use. This change reduces how effective nuking casters are which lowers their effectiveness in groups.

[Calebro]

As a sorcerer, I can spare AP to get full acid/lightning enhancement line(done this in 3 of my past lives already). You can make chain lightning crit 1700dmg on a group of monsters with eardweller, around 1500dmg without. I think that's very good damage against a group of monsters.. It's not impossible to crit twice in a row either. With this new method, not very likely to kill group of 3000hp fire-immune monsters with 2 casts. And problem isn't even killing but contributing. You don't need to even kill them but lowering group of elite orthons hp 1500+ is always helpful.

Ah, see, this is something I hadn't considered.
My casters are CC with some persistent AoE. I tried a nuker once and didn't like it so I didn't continue. Thus, the nuker evaded me.
Point taken.

[Lifespawn]

How is it a waste of mana? Explain.
How is it longer casting times? Explain.

This changes NOTHING unless you were a crit-fisherman before.

if you played epics you had to be a crit fisherman because they get such high immunities now with the way lots of them regen you can't kill them before you run out of sp.

[Mystera]

Wow! This is a HUGE nerf to casters:

NERF #1
Before if you got a crit AoE you cleaned up all the mobs in one cast. Now you can only get 1-2 crits in a group of 10 mobs, so you will ALWAYS have to cast multiple times to finish them which makes us use a lot more mana.

NERF #2
Can no longer crit fish in epic content. Without crit fishing content is going to take a lot longer to complete, and wizards contribution to the group just went way down.

NERF #3 (Unconfirmed...can someone please confirm this?)
This is perhaps the biggest potential nerf and I'd appreciate it if someone could confirm it. I use major lore items to boost my spell damage output. Usually I'll cast an AOE spell like firewall, with my major fire lore item equipped, then swap to my major ice lore or major acid lore item so I can cast a polar ray or acid fog while my firewall is going. Under the old system my firewall crit chance was set when I cast it, so if I unequipped the major fire lore item to cast other ice and acid spells, it didn't impact the crit on the firewall. Under the new system the crit chance is determined throughout the spell. So either I have to sit there and just stare at my firewall for 2 mins (with my major lore item in hand), or I have to foregoe all major lore crit bonuses if I chose to switch lore items to cast other spells.

NERF #1 + NERF #2 just made wizards very undersirable in high end content. NERF #3 would completely destroy my build since I have carefully taken time to collect major lore items for each spell type. If I can't cast one, and fix the lore chance, then move on to the next, my entire build / gear selection is shot. And I have spent countless hours collecting this stupid **** that gives you high lore chance to a specific element. Now I would just have to sit there and watch while my AOE spell finishes. Someone please confirm?!?

[efreet5]

Just wondering but why are people complaining about all of this aoe spell "nerfage" and then bringing up epics as a place where you "needed" crit firewalls???

When I run epics we utlize crowd control so much more than firewall it's ridiculous. Mass Hold Monster, Flesh to Stone (casters/rogue mobs), and some irresistable dance. The melees destroy everything and I go on my merry way to the next batch of victims. Boss mobs?? Just dps em already. If your melees don't have the dps to drop the boss, then your group wasn't ready for the quest anyways.

As for mana efficiency, use a Dreamspitter and mass hold/fts and that argument goes out the window.

Your example:
10 mobs + Max/Emp/Quicken/Extended Firewall (85sps) and mobs dead eventually

My example:
10 mobs + 1 mass hold =Dead mobs (0 kiting)

Now, if you're talking about soloing, then 1 symbol of persuasion (mobs kill each other).

I've been running my caster for a long time now and I don't see where spamming firewalls down until you see big numbers is mana efficient in any way, shape, or form...perhaps you gentlemen could enlighten me??

[Nyvn]

Just wondering but why are people complaining about all of this aoe spell "nerfage" and then bringing up epics as a place where you "needed" crit firewalls???

When I run epics we utlize crowd control so much more than firewall it's ridiculous. Mass Hold Monster, Flesh to Stone (casters/rogue mobs), and some irresistable dance. The melees destroy everything and I go on my merry way to the next batch of victims. Boss mobs?? Just dps em already. If your melees don't have the dps to drop the boss, then your group wasn't ready for the quest anyways.

As for mana efficiency, use a Dreamspitter and mass hold/fts and that argument goes out the window.

Your example:
10 mobs + Max/Emp/Quicken/Extended Firewall (85sps) and mobs dead eventually

My example:
10 mobs + 1 mass hold =Dead mobs (0 kiting)

Now, if you're talking about soloing, then 1 symbol of persuasion (mobs kill each other).

I've been running my caster for a long time now and I don't see where spamming firewalls down until you see big numbers is mana efficient in any way, shape, or form...perhaps you gentlemen could enlighten me??

Hmm have we been reading the same threadNew Ice Storm... wow! is more about the nerf to crit fishing and this one is more about the nerf to instant AE spells like Cone of cold or Chain Lightening. Not all casters want to play CC, and Turbine seems to (Sometimes) think that nukers are a viable play style (Sorc Elemental Savant PREs).

With this change crit fishing is gone, with an overall increase to persistent AE spells.
Any damage spell that does persistent damage is increased with this change, Melf Acid Arrow, Burning Blood.
Instant Damage single target spells have no change from this.
Instant damage AE spells however are nerfed, as has been pointed out a few times in this thread.

[Scraap]

The greatest irony of all this of course, is that the per-mob crits mostly mirror the old "botch" house rule which was implemented by many a DM to boost spells with *saves*, since that was a case of not only failing your save, but rolling a 1 on the roll, and hence being dealt more damage.

Crits on every damage spell turns that entire scenario exactly on it's head...

Perhaps doubling the amount of damage further on crits on the single-burst ones would serve to reflect the original design (not that I'm really all that big a fan of 'throw more at the HP sub-stat' as the best way to proceed, but it would be something, at least)?

[Calebro]

The greatest irony of all this of course, is that the per-mob crits mostly mirror the old "botch" house rule which was implemented by many a DM to boost spells with *saves*, since that was a case of not only failing your save, but rolling a 1 on the roll, and hence being dealt more damage.

Crits on every damage spell turns that entire scenario exactly on it's head...

Perhaps doubling the amount of damage further on crits on the single-burst ones would serve to reflect the original design (not that I'm really all that big a fan of 'throw more at the HP sub-stat' as the best way to proceed, but it would be something, at least)?

Don't bring PnP into this. If we bring PnP into this we'll be forced to remember that AoE spells can't crit at all because they don't have an attack roll.
But the fact of the matter is that without any spell crits at all, casters would be terrible DPS. They need their crits as well.

[Scraap]

Don't bring PnP into this. If we bring PnP into this we'll be forced to remember that AoE spells can't crit at all because they don't have an attack roll.
But the fact of the matter is that without any spell crits at all, casters would be terrible DPS. They need their crits as well.

What can I say, sometimes I have a senior moment and reflect on why something was the way it was and not just what. (Now whered I put my teef)

[kernal42]

With the Current System:
10 enemies, cast number 1:
1-1400
2-1400
3-1400
4-1400
5-1400
6-1400
7-1400
8-1400
9-1400
10-1400

......
stuff....
......

10 enemies, cast number 11:
1-dead
2-dead
3-dead
4-dead
5-dead
6-dead
7-dead
8-dead
9-dead
10-dead
____________


And as for "getting used to it"
I dont think so mate, this is indeed a horrible new critical system compared to the old one, the only ppl who would trully benefit from this chance would be newbs with only firewall, ice storm or acid cloud as damage spell and nothing else, if u have 1 aoe single hit spell you will be nerfed, and i have many of those as i kill alot faster than a firewall especially in high level content.

When i first tought that this change would only be implemented in firewall i couldnt care less as i dont do critical fishing, but nerfind all aoe spells like that is just unnaceptable, we are useless enough at high level raids or missions.

Your example is silly. First of all, spending 11 casts (~800 sp) on one group of mobs is not going to be any more successful than doing the same with 15 casts; either way you're going to run out of sp long before you make any progress in the quest. It's only slightly more efficient than energy drain + FoD.

Second of all, no one-shot AoE damage spell is without a save. Both cases (current system and new system) will take even longer to kill all the mobs.

So, I guess you've convinced me that this hugely inefficient strategy has gotten slightly worse on account of the crit mod change. I don't see this as particularly game-breaking.

Cheers,
Kernal

PS You're criticizing Calebro's castering ability while stating your nuker has 9% crit chance?

[Thrudh]

In current version you kill all faster as critical chance affects all group, in the new version u kill all slower as the critical chance affects each mob individually, so you say youre at ease by killing 1 faster, but on the long time run u will take more time to kill the rest so the rest of the group will represent you even more danger than just 1 u killed.

In the current version 9 out of 10 of your casts do ZERO crits... Are those wasted? Are those worthless? Can you survive an encounter without casting a crit spell?

Sure it's nice when you get a crit spell and everything dies... But you certainly don't depend on that, do you? You do just fine with 90% of your casts being normal damage, right?

Now, instead of 90% being normal damage, and 10% being awesome damage, you get 100% being a little better than normal damage and zero being awesome damage.

Is that better for us? Probably not.... But is that terribly worse? Nope... I never counted on that 10% awesome damage anyway... And now all my 90% spells will actually do more damage than before...

On average, we'll do the exact same damage as before...

[Cartheron]

Sure, 11 casts is enormous. But with good evocation DC mobs will usually save only on 20 (im talking about those mobs you cannot fw, so you will nuke them with chain lighting). Chain hits for about 600 dmg. Elite devils in Amrath have about 2500hp, so you will need about 5 casts without crits to kill the group, but if you will get a crit on cast 1-3 you will kill them in 3 casts. Probably your killing rate will average at about 3,5 cast/group with crits calculated per casts and at about 4,8 casts (you can get lucky sometimes ) with crits calculated per mob.

When you have a group of 20+ devils in elite Amrath quests, killing them in 3,5 casts is pretty effective. Killing in 5 is not so bad too, but still its worse

[Missing_Minds]

PS You're criticizing Calebro's castering ability while stating your nuker has 9% crit chance?

I noted that myself, and laughed.

The only issue I see is that Ice Storm isn't extendable, and it should be.

[Thrudh]

if you played epics you had to be a crit fisherman because they get such high immunities now with the way lots of them regen you can't kill them before you run out of sp.

That doesn't make much sense as written...

Say you had a 20% crit chance... Crit fishing meant you cast on average 5 firewalls until you got a crit one.... which did, what? 2.5 damage?

It's more SP efficient to run them through 3 normal firewalls, than to cast 5 looking for a crit one... Now the crit method is FASTER.... but you if were running out of SP, then crit-fishing was the wrong way to go...

[kernal42]

Sure, 11 casts is enormous. But with good evocation DC mobs will usually save only on 20 (im talking about those mobs you cannot fw, so you will nuke them with chain lighting). Chain hits for about 600 dmg. Elite devils in Amrath have about 2500hp, so you will need about 5 casts without crits to kill the group, but if you will get a crit on cast 1-3 you will kill them in 3 casts. Probably your killing rate will average at about 3,5 cast/group with crits calculated per casts and at about 4,8 casts (you can get lucky sometimes ) with crits calculated per mob.

When you have a group of 20+ devils in elite Amrath quests, killing them in 3,5 casts is pretty effective. Killing in 5 is not so bad too, but still its worse

With an 18% crit chance, you have a 36% chance of getting a crit within the first three shots, and a 10% chance of getting a crit on the fourth, which gives you an average of 4.2 casts to kill the group, compared with an average of (read: exactly) 5 casts to kill the group under the crit-per-mob scenario. Basically you're losing the "hey awesome, they're dead already!" situation. Certainly a weakening of this tactic, but the loss is less than one cast on average.

Presumably this is mitigated by the ability to kill them all with a single cast of Ice Storm now.

Cheers,
Kernal