The breaking point of ranged combat

[JeffreyGator]

So an interesting question might be is where the OP's suggestion might be useful.

I could see this being of some use in shroud parts 4 and 5 where you might not want to risk a cleric dying by being next to the mob and only one healer at a time is actually healing.

(OTOH having a couple of RS clerics banging away and passively healing the group on Arratriekos might make healing almost unneeded)

But this is one raid that is really not a challenge anymore except in rare completely lack of direction following instances. One of the fastest shrouds I was on recently had 6 arcanes but everybody knew what they were doing.

For solo and douing distance from target can be really nice - but this is only really achieved well in explorer areas.

This might help in the Queen Lailat raid where often everyone starts using a bow.

[Raithe]

With empower, you don't need the extra damage from ranged combat.

Ranged combat while kiting in blade barriers isn't so much about adding to the blade barrier damage as it is getting aggro to utilize in kiting. If someone nicks your intended targets with, say, soundburst damage, then your targets may not go where you want them to go.

I would agree that empower will add more to the damage of a blade barrier kite than ranged attack normally would. It will also cost 15 more spell points each time it is used. Ranged attack can do more than miniscule damage and at a cost of only 1 arrow per strike.

[Chai]

Recommending a Rogue use a bow is like recommending a Sorc not take Wall of Fire.

Best single target DPS in the game for 20 seconds is a str rogue fully haste bursted with action boost and spell haste using many shot and slayer arrows.

Its the crazies that wont put down the bow after the manyshot that goes into cooldown who make the PRE look bad, heh.

[Orratti]

Not being in the melee is useful to a healer. You are less likely to get damaged if you aren't in the group getting spammed with flamestrikes, cometfalls, lightning bolts, and soundbursts. You are also less likely to get tripped, crippled, stunned, and commanded. As long as you are healing and have quicken to offset the slow bow animation who should really care if you are throwing out the equivalent of near nil damage. Blade barriers are great when you are soloing and when you actually are partied with people that will use them but max, emp and extended use up a pretty decent amount of spell points that are often wasted. Ranging for a cleric gives you something to do while monitoring the party from a distance between casting heals or running up to throw an aura. It's been said a thousand times that clerics don't count as weapon based DPS even when meleeing and therefore there is no style of weapon dps output they excel at. If the party is relying on the cleric's weapons to decide the outcome of a battle they are making a mistake. As long as you know how to properly use your spells and auras it doesn't really matter if you want to use a bow, throw coal, or swing a greataxe at them. Build whatever you like as long as you will be an effective cleric.

[CrankVulcan]

Unfortunately, ranged DPS is usually less than melee.

Manyshot being an exception.

Slayer Arrows throw a variable into the mix that is hard to account for. But being random, I believe they will not out DPS a comparably built and equiped melee char in most situations.

Improved Precise shot is another variable that is hard to account for.


You can do a lot to beef up ranged DPS, to very good levels, but the melee guys can do the same things to beef up theirs.....so in the end, you still come out behind.

( I should note that special arrows can supe up the ranged damage quite a bit, but they drop in too few quantities to be consistance DPS.)

It's also important to note that crit range is key to DPS against anything that can be critted. And ranged weps fall behind here as well.

So the slower attack speed, and less crits, make ranged inferior DPS.



But, inferior does not mean useless.....or in some cases does not even mean weak.

Some ranged builds really do some good damage.
It's just that with simliar investment, they could have done more damage if they had focused on melee instead.


However, often overlooked is the real power of ranged. Which is not DPS.
It is distance.

Distance from target is powerful. And deserves more respect than it is given.


So IMO, add distance, slayer arrows, Improved Precise Shot in some situations....and you get some potential.
Especially during Manyshot. But even without manyshot, you can tweak some good damage numbers out of ranged.

But I've seen some melee guys tweak out some damage that would put most ranged guys to shame.......




I should mention one more problem, especially since the OP mentioned doing enough damage to be a boss killer.

Agro.

Especially from teleporting bosses.

Popular raid tactics depend on predictibly controlling raid boss agro. Or positioning.

You do not want to be the ranged guy who pulls boss agro.

It doesn't matter how good you are. How super, duper, uber your bow DPS is.

Cause unless you plan on soloing the raid, you do not want to pull that boss's agro.

That will screw up things for everyone else.....even if you are sturdy enough to take the agro.... it messes up the plan.

You do not want to be that guy.



IMO, the best ranged char is one that can also melee.
And if he cannot, he has to be a smart enough player to work with the group.


Actually, understanding agro, is a skill that all players need to learn. But it is more obvious when the ranged guy pulls agro.

Any class and any combat style can benefit from understanding agro to the point of getting agro only when they want to, and not get it when they do not.

Accidents happen. Variables abound. So sometimes you will get it when you do not want it. And then that brings in another skill, of knowing what you can do to get the agro back under control.



Anyway, so while you can make a char to deal out some respectible damage with ranged. It tends to be random and unpredictible at times....or burst damage.
And it has severe implecations with agro management.

And in general, a similarly built, equiped melee guy will do more consistant DPS.


But the power of distance from target, should not be underestimated either.

+1 to you....I actually see the point now. I thought about it all day at work and realized the basic concept.

I have two choices at the moment. One is to spread my talent thin and have more utility. The other is reinforce my base abilities.

Well fine I won't go arcane archer I suppose...

So I hate to pull a U-turn in the middle of a thread but I have to as kjust a few questions....

The original concept of this character(with AA added in as a bonus only, not a main focus) is to be a Middle AC, high Healing amp, Str. based staff swinging toon.

The feats I MUST have are these:

1)Maximize
2)Extend
3)Quicken
4)Empower healing(RS)
5)Power attack(to maximize two handed fighting dps)
6)?
7)?
8)?
9)?

I was considering going helf because of the new dilettante enhancement lines.I was gonna go Ranger for +8 str bow damage, but now I'm considering pally for +5 chr. bonus to saves....Or I could go human for extra healing amp....I don't know.

Sooooo anyone have an opinion on what should fill the build space that is now free?
Any thoughts on feats, race, or general build critiques? Thanks for pointing out the flaws of the AA build....Another build for another time....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

+1 to you....I actually see the point now. I thought about it all day at work and realized the basic concept.

I have two choices at the moment. One is to spread my talent thin and have more utility. The other is reinforce my base abilities.

Well fine I won't go arcane archer I suppose...

So I hate to pull a U-turn in the middle of a thread but I have to as kjust a few questions....

The original concept of this character(with AA added in as a bonus only, not a main focus) is to be a Middle AC, high Healing amp, Str. based staff swinging toon.

The feats I MUST have are these:

1)Maximize
2)Extend
3)Quicken
4)Empower healing(RS)
5)Power attack(to maximize two handed fighting dps)
6)?
7)?
8)?
9)?

I was considering going helf because of the new dilettante enhancement lines.I was gonna go Ranger for +8 str bow damage, but now I'm considering pally for +5 chr. bonus to saves....Or I could go human for extra healing amp....I don't know.

Sooooo anyone have an opinion on what should fill the build space that is now free?
Any thoughts on feats, race, or general build critiques? Thanks for pointing out the flaws of the AA build....Another build for another time....

I don't want to talk you out of a build idea that you think you will like though.

The poster above, Orratti, has a couple ranged cleric builds that do quite well. And he has a lot of fun with them.

I think a dedicated raid healer needs to concentrate too much to do much ranging, but most dungeons do not requite constant nano-second babysitting.

On another note, I made a cleric with the idea of being Invisible at all times and trying to never draw agro. It worked quite well.
It was also boring to the point that she became a mule that I never play.

Building a fun toon, that can do something other than stand around and watch other people fight is a worthy goal.

I just was trying to point out some realistic things to consider with ranged builds.

I have a Ftr based AA who does some great bow DPS. But he is still behind the better melee DPS guys out there.

And that is all he can do.
As soon as I get into a situation where ranged isn't the best way to deal with it, I become seriously gimped.

So after playing that guy I prefer Rgrs, who can also melee.

I do love AAs now. Even changed two Tempest Rgrs to AAs.
But they actually melee more often than range. Depending on my mood at the time.

I have also tried to make just about everything into an AA. But I keep coming back to most classes have too few feats to do it right.

Unless they are heavy in Rgr or Ftr levels, making a good AA is very difficult.

On my current FVS, I am planning on taking the minimum feats for AA. But it's a low priority, and everytime I get a new feat, I keep seeing something that I would rather take.....so if I continue this plan, she may not actually get it until lvl 18.
And not se a major benefit until 20, and Slayer Arrows.


But anyway. I did not want to talk you out of something you really want.

Just to help you make an informed decision.

You could always swap feats later. Or do a Lesser Reincarnation.
If you made your char one way, and decided to change him later.

[Thrudh]

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

Yes, DPS is terrible without manyshot... Improved Precise Shot lets you hit multiple targets at once, which also majorly increases DPS.

If a fighter does 300% more DPS than me normally, but I'm hitting 4 targets with each shot (or one target 4 times with manyshot) then I am doing more DPS.

I would not build an archer without manyshot

I would try very hard to fit in Improved Precise Shot, but you can make an okay archer without it... Not having Manyshot is a deal breaker though.

Manyshot with Bow Strength (i.e. 6 ranger splash) can make situational ranging very useful on a non-archer build (i.e. a build with no other archer feats). It's that powerful.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes, DPS is terrible without manyshot... Improved Precise Shot lets you hit multiple targets at once, which also majorly increases DPS.

If a fighter does 300% more DPS than me normally, but I'm hitting 4 targets with each shot (or one target 4 times with manyshot) then I am doing more DPS.

I would not build an archer without manyshot

I would try very hard to fit in Improved Precise Shot, but you can make an okay archer without it... Not having Manyshot is a deal breaker though.

Manyshot with Bow Strength (i.e. 6 ranger splash) can make situational ranging very useful on a non-archer build (i.e. a build with no other archer feats). It's that powerful.

A lot of people point out Improved Precise Shot when talking about ranged DPS.

Which is great, and I love to see all those numbers on my screen. Or being able to take on a whole army at once. (with comparable agro...but there are times when that is a good decision)

But I find that it is rare that I can hit a whole lot of targets at once.

They just don't line up for you that often.

Usually I can count on two....most of the time, but not even with everyshot.

Paralysers help a lot. But that means lower damage.

Actualy I find one of the best uses for ranged, and Improved Precise Shot is when using a paralyser......mostly for CCing many targets, but also to keep them still to line up a shot that will damage most of them at once.

Anyway, as much as I love ranged, I think Iproved Precise Shot is too inconsistant when talking about DPS.
Although it should not be ignored either....I just don't know how to accurately quantify it.

[Thrudh]

In that case, it's not worth it.
There are 4 different circumstances possible:

You focus on it = You do not.
You have 6 Ranger levels, so you're decent by default = You do not.
You ignore it completely = Possible since you have spells.
You use it only when it's appropriate = those situations are so few and far between that wasting valuable feats on them is foolish.

Good breakdown...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well, number one; you should play what you think is fun.

It is more fun when it works. So knowing what the game will allow you to build, and how it will work out with how other players play, is important.


The game favors min/maxing, single focus builds. But I prefer versitile chars, and think they are a lot of fun.

Maximum DPS isn't really required often. But it does make things easier.

Clerics don't need to be healing all the time in most dungeons.

And standing around watching everyone else kill things is not fun either.

So building a toon that can do something between heals is good IMO.



The ranged cleric can work. I've seen it work.

You do give up some healing ability when you invest feats into something else....and probably when you invest build points too.

But even if you are doing only a little DPS, it is still something, it still helps, and at least you can have fun not just standing around watching.

A minimal investment Clr AA will not do a lot of DPS. But should still be a decent healer too IMO.

The more you invest in ranged, the less capable healer you will be, and it will take a lot of investment in ranged to do a lt of ranged DPS.

I've seen some good ranged cleric or FVS builds. But I have not come up with one that I think will work to my satisfaction.

I'd like to. I still may make a few.
I kinda like Clr12(or FVS12)/Rgr6/Mnk2(or Rog2) as a battle cleric idea.
But would not pretend to be a dedicated healer.

But if this is your first char, that you will be lvling up to 20 and wanting to fit in with everyone else's expectations.

I would build something more mainstream first. And get a better feel for what kind of char you really want to play.

[Thrudh]

Ranged combat is rather poor with Manyshot, Rapid Shot and Arcane Archer and +14 or so damage being added to shots vs. Favored Enemies.

This will out damage any melee even on single target... You don't know what you're talking about.

Add in Improve Precise Shot where the archer is hitting 2 or 3 targets with Manyshot, Arcane slayer arrows, and +14 damage from favored enemies, and your max DPS TWF fighter looks like a gimp...

For 20 seconds... (That's why it's balanced)...

But you really don't know what you're talking about if you think an archer sucks DURING manyshot.

[Thrudh]

However, often overlooked is the real power of ranged. Which is not DPS.
It is distance.

Distance from target is powerful. And deserves more respect than it is given.

Good point.

IMO, the best ranged char is one that can also melee.

Also excellent point...

[Thrudh]

Anyway, as much as I love ranged, I think Iproved Precise Shot is too inconsistant when talking about DPS.
Although it should not be ignored either....I just don't know how to accurately quantify it.

Agreed, but I get tired when the DPS spreadsheet gurus completely ignore it because it is hard to quantify...

And it's actually MORE useful on epic where mass hold monster is used a lot... Very easy to line up at least 2 when they are held in place.

And the Amrath quests are full of skinny corridors chock full of monsters (Rainbow in the Dark has a couple of nice corridors full of elementals too)

[Orratti]

If you want to make a ranging cleric that can fulfill the job of a cleric your breaking point in multiclassing is about 4 or less levels in another class. That leaves enough room to do the build however. I would go with two levels of ranger because it gives one of the two required feats needed to open up manyshot, rapid shot. It also gives martial weapon proficiency, bow strength, and two weapon fighting. After that you only need to take point blank shot and manyshot. If you want to be an arcane archer you will need to take mental toughness. That leaves you four feats open to boost your cleric healing and damage output. I believe the best choices would be maximize, quicken, and extend with one feat to spare.

This leaves lots of options open to you. My build is 16/2/2 Clr/Rgr/Mnk and I love the combination. It's very workable. I don't have to rely on spells, melee, or ranging to do all of my damage, I can do and mix all three. Versatility is great. While not being the max damage in any particular form of combat the combination gives you impressive overall power and control of a battle from anywhere on the field. The combination of workable evasion and self healing is very hard to kill as any clr/mnk or clr/rog can tell you.

Raid healing is competely possible but it is better to play backup for a main cleric or FvS. Quest healing is no problem. When you build it though you are going to need to squeeze out every spell point you can get. Without a shroud item I've got 1616 which is a good 400-600 sps behind a full cleric, nothing a pot can't fix though.

17/2/1 Clr/Mnk/Ftr with point blank shot, rapid shot, manyshot, quicken, maximize, extend, mental toughness, toughness, two weapon fighting and improved critical for a melee weapon or power attack would be my second choice. Obviously you have to be elven and have a 17 base dex for either build although you might be able to be half-elf I really haven't looked at them yet.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Agreed, but I get tired when the DPS spreadsheet gurus completely ignore it because it is hard to quantify...

And it's actually MORE useful on epic where mass hold monster is used a lot... Very easy to line up at least 2 when they are held in place.

And the Amrath quests are full of skinny corridors chock full of monsters (Rainbow in the Dark has a couple of nice corridors full of elementals too)

There's a lot of things they ignore or downplay that I disagree with.

Some wil admit ranged is useful "situationally" but fail to see that you can create your own situations.

One that gets me, that may be minor, but is still relevent IMO, is the ability to quickly put weapon on target and start doing damage.

Playing my Rogue and Monk, I am often very frustrated at how difficult it is to actually put my blades/fists onto the mobs.

They run from me, or past me. Jump places....etc.
I can't even see them with all the AOE, and those darn Hezrous or Earth Ellies in my way. Or feel like I'm playing drunk in a snowstorm cause some air ellie is in my face.


With a bow, I can sit back with a nice view of the whole battlefield....tabbing from target to target immediately when one dies.

If I agro one enough to charge me, I switch to melee. If he runs away from me, back to my bow.
None of this chasing them all over the place and not even knowing which Drow (or Orthon) I'm suppose to be trying to hit.

And, hit more than one target.



I can see how it may be more useful in Epics than I originally thought. More use of holds and stuns or other agro control to keep things in one spot, so you can line up a shot.

I tend to range very little on Epics so far. Either because I feel like I'm trying to cut down a tree with an ice pick, or because I really don't want agro.
(four years of being told ranged sucks and being brow beat into submission has probably contributed as well.)

But maybe I shoud rethink that now that mass holds and stunning is more the norm. (it would also help even out the crit range disadvantage of most ranged weps.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you want to make a ranging cleric that can fulfill the job of a cleric your breaking point in multiclassing is about 4 or less levels in another class. That leaves enough room to do the build however. I would go with two levels of ranger because it gives one of the two required feats needed to open up manyshot, rapid shot. It also gives martial weapon proficiency, bow strength, and two weapon fighting. After that you only need to take point blank shot and manyshot. If you want to be an arcane archer you will need to take mental toughness. That leaves you four feats open to boost your cleric healing and damage output. I believe the best choices would be maximize, quicken, and extend with one feat to spare.

This leaves lots of options open to you. My build is 16/2/2 Clr/Rgr/Mnk and I love the combination. It's very workable. I don't have to rely on spells, melee, or ranging to do all of my damage, I can do and mix all three. Versatility is great. While not being the max damage in any particular form of combat the combination gives you impressive overall power and control of a battle from anywhere on the field. The combination of workable evasion and self healing is very hard to kill as any clr/mnk or clr/rog can tell you.

Raid healing is competely possible but it is better to play backup for a main cleric or FvS. Quest healing is no problem. When you build it though you are going to need to squeeze out every spell point you can get. Without a shroud item I've got 1616 which is a good 400-600 sps behind a full cleric, nothing a pot can't fix though.

17/2/1 Clr/Mnk/Ftr with point blank shot, rapid shot, manyshot, quicken, maximize, extend, mental toughness, toughness, two weapon fighting and improved critical for a melee weapon or power attack would be my second choice. Obviously you have to be elven and have a 17 base dex for either build although you might be able to be half-elf I really haven't looked at them yet.

I've got a Sor on Argo that is about to hit 20.
I'm planning on TRing her into an AA because the free past life feat can be used instead of Mental Toughness.....that frees up a feat.

I was going to go Rgr, but maybe a Clr/Fvs AA might be worth a try.
On a TR I'll have more build points too. Making it easier to get all the stats I would need to be effective at healing and ranged (and melee).

Also might be able to get by with a Half Elf and the dillitante(sp) feat instead of Bow Str.

Will have to look at that closer.

[Thrudh]

I've got a Sor on Argo that is about to hit 20.
I'm planning on TRing her into an AA because the free past life feat can be used instead of Mental Toughness.....that frees up a feat.

What? Is this true?

[CrankVulcan]

What? Is this true?

I thought it was only the wizard past life feat, but the sorc past life might work as well...

[Pwesiela]

I thought it was only the wizard past life feat, but the sorc past life might work as well...

Arcane Prodigy. Yes, it can.

[CrankVulcan]

Arcane Prodigy. Yes, it can.

sweet