The breaking point of ranged combat

[CrankVulcan]

As far as I understand ranged combat via arcane archer can be potentially powerful if played and built well. I have zero experience with the arcane archer prestige, the gameplay style, archery feats, or ranged weapon choices. What I really need to know is this; Where is the turning point between "I can use a bow if needed" and, "I kill s**t like a boss when I use a bow." I have an opportunity to stick AA into my build without losing much. I plan on going zen and using wisdom.

My build is a 17/3 half-elf clonk str based. I really want to know how terrible/acceptable will my ranged combat be with my projected feat selection...Remember this is not my primary method of dps. I will more likely be using blade barriers for heavy dps and melee when trying to concerve mana.

What is the Arcane archer prestige worth without Rapid shot, multishot, and bow-strength? I almost went 15/3/2 just to add in either two lvls of fighter or ranger so I could have some more feats. We'll see.

My wisdom will surely be in the low 30s by the time I'm capped especially with ocean stance available. My dex will be less than effective according to my plans.

How does the half-elf Ranger Dilettante work? I heard it mentioned as an enhancement line but I didn't see it in the compendium. I read about the feat but know nothing about an enhancement line. Please enlighten me if you are more informed than I. EDIT: Just read up on the changes to come. It looks like the ranger Dilettante will allow me to use up to 8 points of str damage when using bows. Sweet...



Here are the feats I have planned:

-------------Required caster feats IMO------
-Quicken
-Empower heal(RS)
-Maximize
-Extend

------------Super important for effective combat-----
-Power attack
-Zen archery

-----------Required for AA prestige-------
-Weapon focus(ranged)
-point-blank shot
-mental toughness(


Thanks in advance.

[Calebro]

Here are the feats I have planned:

-------------Required caster feats IMO------
-Quicken
-Empower heal(RS)
-Maximize
-Extend

------------Super important for effective combat-----
-Power attack
-Zen archery
Manyshot
Improved Precise Shot
Bow Strength

-----------Required for AA prestige-------
-Weapon focus(ranged)
-point-blank shot
-mental toughness(


Thanks in advance.

Added a few for you.

[CrankVulcan]

Added a few for you.

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

[Calebro]

but my question is if it's worthless or not.

Look where I moved them to.
You had them listed in your text above, and I categorized them for you. They are considered "Super Important for Effective Combat" as per your title.
Does that answer your question?

[unbongwah]

Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot?

The general attitude towards AAs is "Manyshot or GTFO." With it your DPS is up to 4x normal for 20 secs. every 2 mins; without it your DPS is, umm, not so hot. The problem for what you're attempting is feat shortage. It takes 2 or 3 feats to get AA; another 2 for Rapid Shot & Manyshot; Bow STR is considered a de facto pre-req; Prec Shot, Imp Prec Shot, and Imp Crit Ranged are ideal; maybe Zen Archery while you're at it. As you've doubtless realized, that's a heck of a lot of feats - and that's before you get to any metamagics!

[sephiroth1084]

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

Ranged combat is rather poor with Manyshot, Rapid Shot and Arcane Archer and +14 or so damage being added to shots vs. Favored Enemies. Archery is hardly worth devoting feats and such to as a primary form of attack with everything, so why would you devote a chunk of your feats toward achieving an incredibly substandard secondary (tertiary) form of combat? You'd be much better off picking up 1 level of ranger for Bow Str, or even just taking whatever the other prerequisite is besides Power Attack for the feat, and using a bowin situations where its necessary. Or, wait a few weeks and go after the new named bow that comes with Bow Str attached to it.

If you're really attached to archer, though, don't half-ass it.

[Thrudh]

Ranged combat is rather poor with Manyshot, Rapid Shot and Arcane Archer and +14 or so damage being added to shots vs. Favored Enemies.

This will out damage any melee even on single target... You don't know what you're talking about.

Add in Improve Precise Shot where the archer is hitting 2 or 3 targets with Manyshot, Arcane slayer arrows, and +14 damage from favored enemies, and your max DPS TWF fighter looks like a gimp...

For 20 seconds... (That's why it's balanced)...

But you really don't know what you're talking about if you think an archer sucks DURING manyshot.

[krud]

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

yes, ranged dps is terrible without those feats you are missing. You still need all those other feats if you want get some dps out of the arcane archer prestige. The best you can do without those essential ranged feats is to use on-hit effect bows in a support role (paralyzers, disruptors, cursespewers, shattermantle, destruction, etc). You don't need arcane archer to do that, just maximize ranged to-hit.

[Thrudh]

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

Yes, DPS is terrible without manyshot... Improved Precise Shot lets you hit multiple targets at once, which also majorly increases DPS.

If a fighter does 300% more DPS than me normally, but I'm hitting 4 targets with each shot (or one target 4 times with manyshot) then I am doing more DPS.

I would not build an archer without manyshot

I would try very hard to fit in Improved Precise Shot, but you can make an okay archer without it... Not having Manyshot is a deal breaker though.

Manyshot with Bow Strength (i.e. 6 ranger splash) can make situational ranging very useful on a non-archer build (i.e. a build with no other archer feats). It's that powerful.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes, DPS is terrible without manyshot... Improved Precise Shot lets you hit multiple targets at once, which also majorly increases DPS.

If a fighter does 300% more DPS than me normally, but I'm hitting 4 targets with each shot (or one target 4 times with manyshot) then I am doing more DPS.

I would not build an archer without manyshot

I would try very hard to fit in Improved Precise Shot, but you can make an okay archer without it... Not having Manyshot is a deal breaker though.

Manyshot with Bow Strength (i.e. 6 ranger splash) can make situational ranging very useful on a non-archer build (i.e. a build with no other archer feats). It's that powerful.

A lot of people point out Improved Precise Shot when talking about ranged DPS.

Which is great, and I love to see all those numbers on my screen. Or being able to take on a whole army at once. (with comparable agro...but there are times when that is a good decision)

But I find that it is rare that I can hit a whole lot of targets at once.

They just don't line up for you that often.

Usually I can count on two....most of the time, but not even with everyshot.

Paralysers help a lot. But that means lower damage.

Actualy I find one of the best uses for ranged, and Improved Precise Shot is when using a paralyser......mostly for CCing many targets, but also to keep them still to line up a shot that will damage most of them at once.

Anyway, as much as I love ranged, I think Iproved Precise Shot is too inconsistant when talking about DPS.
Although it should not be ignored either....I just don't know how to accurately quantify it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well, number one; you should play what you think is fun.

It is more fun when it works. So knowing what the game will allow you to build, and how it will work out with how other players play, is important.


The game favors min/maxing, single focus builds. But I prefer versitile chars, and think they are a lot of fun.

Maximum DPS isn't really required often. But it does make things easier.

Clerics don't need to be healing all the time in most dungeons.

And standing around watching everyone else kill things is not fun either.

So building a toon that can do something between heals is good IMO.



The ranged cleric can work. I've seen it work.

You do give up some healing ability when you invest feats into something else....and probably when you invest build points too.

But even if you are doing only a little DPS, it is still something, it still helps, and at least you can have fun not just standing around watching.

A minimal investment Clr AA will not do a lot of DPS. But should still be a decent healer too IMO.

The more you invest in ranged, the less capable healer you will be, and it will take a lot of investment in ranged to do a lt of ranged DPS.

I've seen some good ranged cleric or FVS builds. But I have not come up with one that I think will work to my satisfaction.

I'd like to. I still may make a few.
I kinda like Clr12(or FVS12)/Rgr6/Mnk2(or Rog2) as a battle cleric idea.
But would not pretend to be a dedicated healer.

But if this is your first char, that you will be lvling up to 20 and wanting to fit in with everyone else's expectations.

I would build something more mainstream first. And get a better feel for what kind of char you really want to play.

[Thrudh]

Anyway, as much as I love ranged, I think Iproved Precise Shot is too inconsistant when talking about DPS.
Although it should not be ignored either....I just don't know how to accurately quantify it.

Agreed, but I get tired when the DPS spreadsheet gurus completely ignore it because it is hard to quantify...

And it's actually MORE useful on epic where mass hold monster is used a lot... Very easy to line up at least 2 when they are held in place.

And the Amrath quests are full of skinny corridors chock full of monsters (Rainbow in the Dark has a couple of nice corridors full of elementals too)

[chrisgina39]

dont think it would work

try something like this 4 great ranged

1monk 1 wiz 18 rouge near full sa and stances

[Calebro]

dont think it would work

try something like this 4 great ranged

1monk 1 wiz 18 rouge near full sa and stances

Recommending a Rogue use a bow is like recommending a Sorc not take Wall of Fire.

[CrankVulcan]

I'm not changing my build to be an archer. My build is a clonk. My guestion is whether or not it's worth the feats and enhancements to throw some ranged combat into the mix. It won't hurt my casting(healing mainly) to throw in this AA stuff, but If it's not worth it I can definitly find other feats to replace these planned ones.

[Calebro]

In that case, it's not worth it.
There are 4 different circumstances possible:

You focus on it = You do not.
You have 6 Ranger levels, so you're decent by default = You do not.
You ignore it completely = Possible since you have spells.
You use it only when it's appropriate = those situations are so few and far between that wasting valuable feats on them is foolish.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

In that case, it's not worth it.
.....

You use it only when it's appropriate = those situations are so few and far between that wasting valuable feats on them is foolish.

This, really. I hear that, properly geared and built ranged can be decent damage, but as a clonk, there's something better to do with teh AP, and there's something more useful you could be doing than using a bow.

[Thrudh]

In that case, it's not worth it.
There are 4 different circumstances possible:

You focus on it = You do not.
You have 6 Ranger levels, so you're decent by default = You do not.
You ignore it completely = Possible since you have spells.
You use it only when it's appropriate = those situations are so few and far between that wasting valuable feats on them is foolish.

Good breakdown...

[frznvimes]

To echo the voices here: don't do it, you will be weak and unhappy.

[sephiroth1084]

Oh, if you are going to go ahead and do this anyway, and are already not going pure, why not go 17/2/1 cleric/monk/ranger to at least get Bow Str for free?