The breaking point of ranged combat

[vVAnjilaVv]

I have to agree with the first reply.....if you want to be effective ranged......must have feats will include Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Bow Strength, and Rapid Shot.....

If you can't fit all of those in you won't be very good DPS as far as ranged goes....you can probably get away with not having rapid shot, but would be advisable.

It can be quite difficult to make caster/melee hybrids as a lot of times they just do not have enough feats, build points to cover all the bases effectively.

I just simply do not see you having the feats to be an effective archer and would skip it altogether or do an LR +3 to get those fighter levels and add the ranged feats you need. ALso if you wanna go ranged why do you need power attack?

If your trying to be effective healing, melee, and ranged I think you will be stretched way to thin.

[Kriogen]

I'm not changing my build to be an archer. My build is a clonk. My guestion is whether or not it's worth the feats and enhancements to throw some ranged combat into the mix. It won't hurt my casting(healing mainly) to throw in this AA stuff, but If it's not worth it I can definitly find other feats to replace these planned ones.

If you don't have Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Multishot (etc), then just use shuriken. It will be the same.

[Pwesiela]

I'm not changing my build to be an archer. My build is a clonk. My guestion is whether or not it's worth the feats and enhancements to throw some ranged combat into the mix. It won't hurt my casting(healing mainly) to throw in this AA stuff, but If it's not worth it I can definitly find other feats to replace these planned ones.

Without, at the VERY least, multishot, your ranged ability will be so far below acceptable that you are simply wasting feats. Drop the zen archery, drop the point blank shot, drop the weapon focus ranged.

Take toughness, toughness, and maybe improved critical: whatever your choice. You'll have more hitpoints, and be better at those melee times you were talking about.

As is, it is NOT worth the feats and enhancements to "throw some ranged combat into the mix." It WILL hurt your casting (less hitpoints for you, higher likelihood of death), and there are FAR better feats for the clonk to take.

You wanted a brutal assessment? There's the brutal assessment. I see a clonk pull out a bow and say their an AA, I seriously question that persons build choices.

[krud]

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

yes, ranged dps is terrible without those feats you are missing. You still need all those other feats if you want get some dps out of the arcane archer prestige. The best you can do without those essential ranged feats is to use on-hit effect bows in a support role (paralyzers, disruptors, cursespewers, shattermantle, destruction, etc). You don't need arcane archer to do that, just maximize ranged to-hit.

[vVAnjilaVv]

For the most part...ranged is just broken period....if you don't have something good to back it up with your not going to be looked upon very well by parties and you will likely have a hard time solo'ing as well.

[CrankVulcan]

If you don't have Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Multishot (etc), then just use shuriken. It will be the same.

The new half elf enhancement line will give me 8 points of Str. damage when using a bow...That plus all the AA imbues should net an amount of damage that will at least help even if it's only used while kiting mobs thru blade barriers right? I looked at other feats I could pick...blah not very many good ones at all. Spell pen wouldn't really matter because with only 17 lvls of cleric My numbers won't be too hot anyways. I'll focus more on BBs, buffs, and healing when it comes to spells.

[Angellica]

You wanted a brutal assessment? There's the brutal assessment. I see a clonk pull out a bow and say their an AA, I seriously question that persons build choices.

I see a ranger pull out a bow and say they're an AA, i seriously question that persons build choices.

Annnnnd I'm totally teasing here. Was just too funny to pass up :P.

[CrankVulcan]

You wanted a brutal assessment? There's the brutal assessment. I see a clonk pull out a bow and say their an AA, I seriously question that persons build choices.

What if being an AA doesn't effect that person's build? It does a little I guess, but in my opinion I'm not losing anything vital to my build. I just can't think of a feat that actually has a big effect on my character. My build's melee benefits only very slightly from Improved crit. Toughness would be nice but not something I would rather have than AA. My HP will be fine without it. The only spell I actually will hate not having will be empower. Empower healing and maximize(for BBs) will have to be enough. One of the feats required for AA is mental toughness and that will actually be pretty helpful IMO. Not my first choice but at least there is synergy involved.

The beauty is my stats will not have to be changed at all and the feats I lose to AA would have gone to weapon finesse and the TWF line, which is what was required in my last clonk idea(a failed idea lol). So it almost feels like I'm losing nothing. I know I could improve my melee slightly or improve my casting slightly but I don't think it's worth it compared to slaying arrows+lightningII bow+unlimited +5 ammo. It seems like it could be very effective in certain situations. Even if it's only while I'm helping the main healer in raids. I could sit back and throw mass heals while spamming divine might and shooting Force burst arrows.

[cpito]

What is the Arcane archer prestige worth without Rapid shot, multishot, and bow-strength?

not much... not even slayer arrows will help.

You wanted a brutal assessment? There's the brutal assessment. I see a clonk pull out a bow and say their an AA, I seriously question that persons build choices.

counterargument.

When you ask a question, be prepared to not like the answer. If you're looking for a debate, don't ask the question, just state your opinion and let the arguing go from there. There is no getting around the fact that the build you posted has some serious flaws and will not bring a whole lot to the table beyond it's buffing ability. If you want to try it, by all means, no one can stop you and it sounds as if you have your mind made up..

[Mercureal]

What if being an AA doesn't effect that person's build? It does a little I guess, but in my opinion I'm not losing anything vital to my build.

<snip>

I know I could improve my melee slightly or improve my casting slightly but I don't think it's worth it compared to slaying arrows+lightningII bow+unlimited +5 ammo. It seems like it could be very effective in certain situations. Even if it's only while I'm helping the main healer in raids. I could sit back and throw mass heals while spamming divine might and shooting Force burst arrows.

You've already heard from a number of people playing AAs that the idea won't be that effective, and I'll join that chorus. If the last sentence in the quote above describes your main goal - to be a healer, and then throw out a (quite) small amount of combat DPS between heals, you should be okay. But realize that what you're suggesting isn't going to optimize your damage-dealing, it's simply the choice to swap a small amount of unoptimized melee damage for a small amount of ranged damage. The contribution that you'll make to combat DPS will be minimal.

[CrankVulcan]

The contribution that you'll make to combat DPS will be minimal.

Well won't it always be with a clonk?

[sephiroth1084]

Well won't it always be with a clonk?

There are degrees. A melee clonk isn't too bad as backup DPS. I have a friend I run with who does this regularly in epics. It's very useful to have that extra bit of decent DPS. Even better if you have a Torc and Concordant Opp since you're much more likely to regenerate mana in melee combat than at range.

Basically, if you really want to go half-elf and spend AP on the ranger dilettante line, you could do that without bothering with any other ranged feats or AA and not be that far behind if all you want is a little added DPS while kiting through BBs. It just seems like such a tremendous waste to put that much effort into archery without even going all the way (especially since all the way is STILL pretty awful).

Also, does Zen Archery keep you centered while holding a bow? I didn't think it did.

Why did you scrap your TWF clonk idea?

[Raithe]

I love how everyone is giving what seems to be indisputable advice without asking any important questions. The primary assumption that may or may not be true is that you intend to run high level/raid/epic content with a standard PUG-like group composed primarily of melee-oriented characters.

Possible problems with the idea, in my opinion:

1) Ranged attack pulls teleporting mobs in mass, possibly to the back lines (where support characters are trying to avoid damage)
2) Ranged attack with kiting involved makes it so that melee can get caught up in a chase instead of actually attacking
3) Ranged attack requires holding a bow in your hands, instead of something else that you probably need for casting or melee-ing.

Ways the idea might work, in my opinion:

1) You are running with a static group of players that always use ranged before closing for melee, or use ranged to avoid damage when fighting bosses.
2) You plan on mostly running quests where kiting through blade barriers is a highly effective tactic that won't take forever and annoy your group.
3) You are planning to use special effect bows like improved shattermantle or improved destruction combined with the True Strike ability to debuff select targets.

My bard has no ranged feats whatsoever, but can achieve a high to-hit with a bow and with the right ammunition and special effects, can do about 40 damage per strike. Its not completely worthless DPS in situations where constant motion is preferrable to letting something like a beholder eyebeam you down.

In my opinion the more useful aspect of ranged combat, though, is debuffing with shattermantle or destruction before casting a spell or closing for melee. My bard's normal bow carried in regular inventory is a holy of improved shattermantle. It basically increases his spell penetration by six.

[sephiroth1084]

I love how everyone is giving what seems to be indisputable advice without asking any important questions. The primary assumption that may or may not be true is that you intend to run high level/raid/epic content with a standard PUG-like group composed primarily of melee-oriented characters.

Possible problems with the idea, in my opinion:

1) Ranged attack pulls teleporting mobs in mass, possibly to the back lines (where support characters are trying to avoid damage)
2) Ranged attack with kiting involved makes it so that melee can get caught up in a chase instead of actually attacking
3) Ranged attack requires holding a bow in your hands, instead of something else that you probably need for casting or melee-ing.

Ways the idea might work, in my opinion:

1) You are running with a static group of players that always use ranged before closing for melee, or use ranged to avoid damage when fighting bosses.
2) You plan on mostly running quests where kiting through blade barriers is a highly effective tactic that won't take forever and annoy your group.
3) You are planning to use special effect bows like improved shattermantle or improved destruction combined with the True Strike ability to debuff select targets.

My bard has no ranged feats whatsoever, but can achieve a high to-hit with a bow and with the right ammunition and special effects, can do about 40 damage per strike. Its not completely worthless DPS in situations where constant motion is preferrable to letting something like a beholder eyebeam you down.

In my opinion the more useful aspect of ranged combat, though, is debuffing with shattermantle or destruction before casting a spell or closing for melee. My bard's normal bow carried in regular inventory is a holy of improved shattermantle. It basically increases his spell penetration by six.

Pretty sure all of the above is implicit in using a bow in the first place, and essentially none of it requires AA or Rapid Shot (or even Bow Str, though that one really helps). Certainly none of it requires these without also taking Manyshot.

[CrankVulcan]

Also, does Zen Archery keep you centered while holding a bow? I didn't think it did.

Why did you scrap your TWF clonk idea?

Zen archery was fixed and now allows monks to be centered.

I scrapped my finesse clonk because I realized this:

High AC/low damage/Fol/torc/Conc-ops<<<< better damage/healing-amp/Fol/torc/Conc-ops/low AC. Only problem is the saves

Using a staff with a 30 Str.(no exceptional or temporary buffs) means I will get 10(power attack)+15(1.5*str)+5(weapon)=30 damage/swing. Add in weapon base damage, elemental effects, and GS effects and the Dps is better than finesse TWf by a long shot. Improved crit bludgeon is such a waste in my opinion because my crits profile is horrid. I would use fists but I need GS healing amp. Probably will switch to unarmed once I get either my DT or ToD rings. Need to see at least 2's and 4's with fists of light.

My casting stat will also be a 30(in stance) not including any buffs or exceptional mods. This will make my BBs at least semi useful and with maximize, quicken, and extend I should be able to use them quite effectively. I just can't think of a better use of the feats. Beyond the fact that this AA addition would be tons of fun and an extreme boon for soloing, I think this concept could be at the least semi-effective in a group senario if the toons was geared decently. I just don't know what feats to take besides toughness(50hp is not gonna make me or break me), Empower, or IC:bludgeon. I don't think either or all 3 of these feats help the solo ability or versatility of my build as much as AA. And like I've said, IC sucks with a staff. I try to imagine running around(with center monk speed lol) Blade barrier kiting, shooting slayer arrows, and keeping my radiant servant aura up almost constantly. Seems pretty effective to me. Even tho AA won't do tons, it's better than nothing and 500 damage on a crit is no joke.

Basic breakdown of to-hit /damage with a GS LightningII bow

TO-HIT(without extended divine power running)
14BAB+10wis+5weapon+2tumbleweed+1focus+1pointblank +2recitation+3divine favor=40-4moving=36

DAMAGE
Base≈5
Weapon+5
Holy≈7
shock≈3.5
Strength+8(update 8 helf ranger enh line)
Pointblank shot+1

≈30/shot(no buffs)

30+
3.5 force
4 divine might 2
3 divine favor

≈40/shot+ 2% chance of 600 lightning and/or 5% of 500 slayer arrow

All this can't be considered completely worthless can it? I forgot to mention the fact that my build is mainly a solo/duo design...

I know I seem like I'm not listening...but I think it just takes complete proof that what I am doing is stupid. Keep trying and keep the arguments to the point and I will consider every bit of info in this thread.

Thanks for your patients and thanks for your opinion.

[Kriogen]

... I try to imagine running around(with center monk speed lol) Blade barrier kiting, shooting slayer arrows, and keeping my radiant servant aura up almost constantly. Seems pretty effective to me. ...

If your Blade Barrier is good, you don't need anything extra. Mobs will be dead before you switch from potency+lore weapon set to bow.

Add Empower instead of ranged feats. Effects cures and RS burst and Blades. You can get some crazy numbers with Max+Empower. On cures (RS Burst) you'll have Max+Empower+EmpowerHeal.

You can also take Toughnes for extra 43 HPs (23 feat + 20 enhancements).

Then there are also THF (TWF) feats to improve your melee.

Or saves feats if you think your saves are low.

Repeater is 'cheaper' on feats then bow.

[Moltier]

If you build this for flavor, go for it. There is nothing wrong with silly build as long as you can do something for the party. In this case you can heal. But if you want to be more effective, its better to just melee and use your monk abilitys constantly for cheaper spells and such.
Without the ranged feats, you will attack less then once per second, even with gear and i believe with haste. So your dps will be ~ 70-80.
The worst possible AA players, who range single target all the time, but with good gear have 170dps. Thats pathetic. The same AA who still range 100% of the time but know how to use imp.prec shot will have even more dps. And there are AAs who use melee weapons as well.

If you really want to range, coz its more fun for you, fit in the manyshot feat, find some special effect bows, and debuff your enemys. 3 beholder in the sub? manyshot + str damage = friendly (but biting) eyeballs

[TheRicH]

My build is this 10Rng 4Rog 6Sorc. AA is my prestige, the Rog levels are for a nice back-stab within 30 feet of the mob and the Sorc is for Defensive spells like blur, haste, mage armor UMD usage and since she is Cha based I took force of personallity feat to have a crazy reflex save of 25 unbuffed. So far I love my toon build with manyshot on I pound out the dmg on mobs. Feats taken are all ranged focused and so far she can do just about anything.

[Pwesiela]

If your Blade Barrier is good, you don't need anything extra. Mobs will be dead before you switch from potency+lore weapon set to bow.

Add Empower instead of ranged feats. Effects cures and RS burst and Blades. You can get some crazy numbers with Max+Empower. On cures (RS Burst) you'll have Max+Empower+EmpowerHeal.

You can also take Toughnes for extra 43 HPs (23 feat + 20 enhancements).

Then there are also THF (TWF) feats to improve your melee.

Or saves feats if you think your saves are low.

Repeater is 'cheaper' on feats then bow.

Here's the problem. The blade barrier won't be good. He won't have empower. Just empower healing. I cannot stress how good empower and maximize are for a blade barrier cleric. With empower, you don't need the extra damage from ranged combat. Without empower, the extra damage from ranged combat will do a little less than nothing to really improve your killing ability with the barrier. The mobs die to the barrier, not to the arrows.

You really are going to be better off taking empower, toughness, and something else. You'll feel better about your build and you won't have to buy a bunch of dragonshards later.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Unfortunately, ranged DPS is usually less than melee.

Manyshot being an exception.

Slayer Arrows throw a variable into the mix that is hard to account for. But being random, I believe they will not out DPS a comparably built and equiped melee char in most situations.

Improved Precise shot is another variable that is hard to account for.


You can do a lot to beef up ranged DPS, to very good levels, but the melee guys can do the same things to beef up theirs.....so in the end, you still come out behind.

( I should note that special arrows can supe up the ranged damage quite a bit, but they drop in too few quantities to be consistance DPS.)

It's also important to note that crit range is key to DPS against anything that can be critted. And ranged weps fall behind here as well.

So the slower attack speed, and less crits, make ranged inferior DPS.



But, inferior does not mean useless.....or in some cases does not even mean weak.

Some ranged builds really do some good damage.
It's just that with simliar investment, they could have done more damage if they had focused on melee instead.


However, often overlooked is the real power of ranged. Which is not DPS.
It is distance.

Distance from target is powerful. And deserves more respect than it is given.


So IMO, add distance, slayer arrows, Improved Precise Shot in some situations....and you get some potential.
Especially during Manyshot. But even without manyshot, you can tweak some good damage numbers out of ranged.

But I've seen some melee guys tweak out some damage that would put most ranged guys to shame.......




I should mention one more problem, especially since the OP mentioned doing enough damage to be a boss killer.

Agro.

Especially from teleporting bosses.

Popular raid tactics depend on predictibly controlling raid boss agro. Or positioning.

You do not want to be the ranged guy who pulls boss agro.

It doesn't matter how good you are. How super, duper, uber your bow DPS is.

Cause unless you plan on soloing the raid, you do not want to pull that boss's agro.

That will screw up things for everyone else.....even if you are sturdy enough to take the agro.... it messes up the plan.

You do not want to be that guy.



IMO, the best ranged char is one that can also melee.
And if he cannot, he has to be a smart enough player to work with the group.


Actually, understanding agro, is a skill that all players need to learn. But it is more obvious when the ranged guy pulls agro.

Any class and any combat style can benefit from understanding agro to the point of getting agro only when they want to, and not get it when they do not.

Accidents happen. Variables abound. So sometimes you will get it when you do not want it. And then that brings in another skill, of knowing what you can do to get the agro back under control.



Anyway, so while you can make a char to deal out some respectible damage with ranged. It tends to be random and unpredictible at times....or burst damage.
And it has severe implecations with agro management.

And in general, a similarly built, equiped melee guy will do more consistant DPS.


But the power of distance from target, should not be underestimated either.