The breaking point of ranged combat

[CrankVulcan]

As far as I understand ranged combat via arcane archer can be potentially powerful if played and built well. I have zero experience with the arcane archer prestige, the gameplay style, archery feats, or ranged weapon choices. What I really need to know is this; Where is the turning point between "I can use a bow if needed" and, "I kill s**t like a boss when I use a bow." I have an opportunity to stick AA into my build without losing much. I plan on going zen and using wisdom.

My build is a 17/3 half-elf clonk str based. I really want to know how terrible/acceptable will my ranged combat be with my projected feat selection...Remember this is not my primary method of dps. I will more likely be using blade barriers for heavy dps and melee when trying to concerve mana.

What is the Arcane archer prestige worth without Rapid shot, multishot, and bow-strength? I almost went 15/3/2 just to add in either two lvls of fighter or ranger so I could have some more feats. We'll see.

My wisdom will surely be in the low 30s by the time I'm capped especially with ocean stance available. My dex will be less than effective according to my plans.

How does the half-elf Ranger Dilettante work? I heard it mentioned as an enhancement line but I didn't see it in the compendium. I read about the feat but know nothing about an enhancement line. Please enlighten me if you are more informed than I. EDIT: Just read up on the changes to come. It looks like the ranger Dilettante will allow me to use up to 8 points of str damage when using bows. Sweet...



Here are the feats I have planned:

-------------Required caster feats IMO------
-Quicken
-Empower heal(RS)
-Maximize
-Extend

------------Super important for effective combat-----
-Power attack
-Zen archery

-----------Required for AA prestige-------
-Weapon focus(ranged)
-point-blank shot
-mental toughness(


Thanks in advance.

[Calebro]

Here are the feats I have planned:

-------------Required caster feats IMO------
-Quicken
-Empower heal(RS)
-Maximize
-Extend

------------Super important for effective combat-----
-Power attack
-Zen archery
Manyshot
Improved Precise Shot
Bow Strength

-----------Required for AA prestige-------
-Weapon focus(ranged)
-point-blank shot
-mental toughness(


Thanks in advance.

Added a few for you.

[chrisgina39]

dont think it would work

try something like this 4 great ranged

1monk 1 wiz 18 rouge near full sa and stances

[CrankVulcan]

Added a few for you.

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

[Calebro]

but my question is if it's worthless or not.

Look where I moved them to.
You had them listed in your text above, and I categorized them for you. They are considered "Super Important for Effective Combat" as per your title.
Does that answer your question?

[Calebro]

dont think it would work

try something like this 4 great ranged

1monk 1 wiz 18 rouge near full sa and stances

Recommending a Rogue use a bow is like recommending a Sorc not take Wall of Fire.

[CrankVulcan]

I'm not changing my build to be an archer. My build is a clonk. My guestion is whether or not it's worth the feats and enhancements to throw some ranged combat into the mix. It won't hurt my casting(healing mainly) to throw in this AA stuff, but If it's not worth it I can definitly find other feats to replace these planned ones.

[Calebro]

In that case, it's not worth it.
There are 4 different circumstances possible:

You focus on it = You do not.
You have 6 Ranger levels, so you're decent by default = You do not.
You ignore it completely = Possible since you have spells.
You use it only when it's appropriate = those situations are so few and far between that wasting valuable feats on them is foolish.

[chrisgina39]

Recommending a Rogue use a bow is like recommending a Sorc not take Wall of Fire.

dont make me manyshot u its quite efective realy

[Calebro]

dont make me manyshot u its quite efective realy

Sure, for the few seconds that Manyshot is going it's effective. That's true of ANY build. But when Manyshot is not active it's horribly horribly gimped compared to a TWF melee Rogue.

You can't use Manyshot as the basis, because anyone with Manyshot is effective during it's duration. How effective it is when Manyshot is on timer is the question, and a Rogue with a bow in hand absolutely sucks during that time.

[unbongwah]

Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot?

The general attitude towards AAs is "Manyshot or GTFO." With it your DPS is up to 4x normal for 20 secs. every 2 mins; without it your DPS is, umm, not so hot. The problem for what you're attempting is feat shortage. It takes 2 or 3 feats to get AA; another 2 for Rapid Shot & Manyshot; Bow STR is considered a de facto pre-req; Prec Shot, Imp Prec Shot, and Imp Crit Ranged are ideal; maybe Zen Archery while you're at it. As you've doubtless realized, that's a heck of a lot of feats - and that's before you get to any metamagics!

[sephiroth1084]

I know what feats I need. That is not the point. I only have nine slots available and the ones I listed are the ones I simply cannot drop. Is the Dps terrible without multishot and rapid shot? I know it's not as good, but my question is if it's worthless or not.

Ranged combat is rather poor with Manyshot, Rapid Shot and Arcane Archer and +14 or so damage being added to shots vs. Favored Enemies. Archery is hardly worth devoting feats and such to as a primary form of attack with everything, so why would you devote a chunk of your feats toward achieving an incredibly substandard secondary (tertiary) form of combat? You'd be much better off picking up 1 level of ranger for Bow Str, or even just taking whatever the other prerequisite is besides Power Attack for the feat, and using a bowin situations where its necessary. Or, wait a few weeks and go after the new named bow that comes with Bow Str attached to it.

If you're really attached to archer, though, don't half-ass it.

[frznvimes]

To echo the voices here: don't do it, you will be weak and unhappy.

[sephiroth1084]

Oh, if you are going to go ahead and do this anyway, and are already not going pure, why not go 17/2/1 cleric/monk/ranger to at least get Bow Str for free?

[chrisgina39]

Sure, for the few seconds that Manyshot is going it's effective. That's true of ANY build. But when Manyshot is not active it's horribly horribly gimped compared to a TWF melee Rogue.

You can't use Manyshot as the basis, because anyone with Manyshot is effective during it's duration. How effective it is when Manyshot is on timer is the question, and a Rogue with a bow in hand absolutely sucks during that time.

try it spec a rogue in it

[Calebro]

try it spec a rogue in it

I don't have to try it. I can do the math.
The sheer number of sneak attack dice lost due to the slower attack speed of a bow vs. TWF tells us all how much lower it would be in DPS. The difference in DPS between a TWF'er and a THF 'er Rogue is huge already. Using a bow is significantly less than a THF'er would be.
Manyshot helps to shore up some of that loss, but it's still far lower than a TWF'er. That's all there is to it.

Hypothetically, if you were only using the bow when Manyshot was active and ditching it in favor of TWF'ing when Manyshot was on timer, then you'd have decent DPS. In fact, in this case, you'd be raising your DPS compared to a TWF'ing Rogue. But the problems in that situation come from the lack of feats. By devoting enough feats to ranged combat to become a good archer, you'd lose most of the feats needed to be a decent melee combatant.

You said:

try something like this 4 great ranged

1monk 1 wiz 18 rouge near full sa and stances

The key word was "great" in that statement. That would not be "great ranged" by any stretch, and even if it were, it would sacrifice melee to be there. It's a one trick pony. The advantage of a Rogue is it's versatility. By devoting enough feats to become decent at ranged combat, you sacrifice that versatility, thereby sacrificing one of the the main strengths of a Rogue.
Had you said "decent ranged" rather than "great ranged" I wouldn't be arguing this.

But we have derailed this thread long enough. If you want to play your AA Rogue, knock yourself out. Just don't try to convince us that it's great ranged DPS, because that phrase is an oxymoron by itself in most cases, even where a Ranger is concerned, and you aren't a Ranger.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

In that case, it's not worth it.
.....

You use it only when it's appropriate = those situations are so few and far between that wasting valuable feats on them is foolish.

This, really. I hear that, properly geared and built ranged can be decent damage, but as a clonk, there's something better to do with teh AP, and there's something more useful you could be doing than using a bow.

[chrisgina39]

I don't have to try it. I can do the math.
The sheer number of sneak attack dice lost due to the slower attack speed of a bow vs. TWF tells us all how much lower it would be in DPS. The difference in DPS between a TWF'er and a THF 'er Rogue is huge already. Using a bow is significantly less than a THF'er would be.
Manyshot helps to shore up some of that loss, but it's still far lower than a TWF'er. That's all there is to it.

Hypothetically, if you were only using the bow when Manyshot was active and ditching it in favor of TWF'ing when Manyshot was on timer, then you'd have decent DPS. In fact, in this case, you'd be raising your DPS compared to a TWF'ing Rogue. But the problems in that situation come from the lack of feats. By devoting enough feats to ranged combat to become a good archer, you'd lose most of the feats needed to be a decent melee combatant.

You said:

The key word was "great" in that statement. That would not be "great ranged" by any stretch, and even if it were, it would sacrifice melee to be there. It's a one trick pony. The advantage of a Rogue is it's versatility. By devoting enough feats to become decent at ranged combat, you sacrifice that versatility, thereby sacrificing one of the the main strengths of a Rogue.
Had you said "decent ranged" rather than "great ranged" I wouldn't be arguing this.

But we have derailed this thread long enough. If you want to play your AA Rogue, knock yourself out. Just don't try to convince us that it's great ranged DPS, because that phrase is an oxymoron by itself in most cases, even where a Ranger is concerned, and you aren't a Ranger.

btw this was about ranged dps not rogue dps it makes great dps(4 ranged combat)

[Calebro]

btw this was about ranged dps not rogue dps it makes great dps(4 ranged combat)

Nice try, but this was actually about a cleric instead of a rogue.
If you're going to try to call me out on staying on topic, make sure you weren't the one that deviated first.

/end derail

[chrisgina39]

Nice try, but this was actually about a cleric instead of a rogue.
If you're going to try to call me out on staying on topic, make sure you weren't the one that deviated first.

/end derail

aaaaa and wasnt realy calling u out just sayin