Spell DC's for a spellsinger

[ArdanosMerrow]

I'd like to make a bard with useful spell DC's in epic, specifically dancing ball/hold monster since they can't get mass hold.

In looking at the DC breakdown I'm finding it a little too low for my taste, let me know if I'm missing something.
Before you say 35 is good, I've run caster quite some time and a 36 hits but doesn't really stick in epic, ideally I'd like a 39+ DC.

DC 35 on Enchant
16 base (Heighten) + 15 stat (40 Cha) + 2 feats + 1 Song + 1 Focus item

I'm not looking to grind a lot of gear for the toon since its mainly just another option when slots are filled. In the future better gear may be available, but I want it to function as soon as I hit 20, not 3-6 months down the road.

Cha breakdown as follow: 18 Base + 1 human + 2 Tome + 5 lvls + 3 enhance + 6 item + 1 exceptional + 2 cap + 2 Ship

While Facinate will stop mobs, it doesn't allow autocrits like hold or continued beating like dance. If I'm right on the DC, then I may be better off just going WC since I'l still be able to Facinate.

[Irinis]

Ok I'm gonna have to do the math instead of following what I done been told.

Bard 38 CHA Spellsinger

Max DC 37
10 + 14 CHA mod + 6 spell level +1 Spellsong trance +2 capstone + 2 Spell Focus + 2 item

Sitting at 40 CHA currently and DC is 38 on Enchantment spells.

[bartosy]

Irinis is right getting dc to 39 requires drow or human +1 and +2 exc charisma and +2 charisma buffs from ship + a +2 enchantment item wich is either the staf of petinioner.. (abbot raid) dreamspitter (reavers raid) or the necro goggles from wiz king on epic (lots of epic quest/raid farming) or getting the eardweller after you get rid of the 4 caster corpses you have to slay before you got a chance on it :P. orchucking yugopots constantly.

Not gonna lie to you it's not something you can do the moment you hit 20 it requres tod (ring) or shroud farming (greensteel weapon) or a mace of greater caster clubbing and tons of luck at least.

[BoBoDaClown]

Cha:
18 base
2 tome
5 levels
3 enhancements
2 cap enhancements
6 item
1 human adapt
1 guild ship
----------- 38 - no gear
1 +3 tome
3 exceptional
----------- 42 relatively easy gear

DC:
10 base
14 Cha
1 Item
2 Capstone
6 Spell Levels (with capstone)
2 Spell Focus Feats
1 Spell Song
----------- 36 - no gear
2 42 Charisma
1 Dreamspitter
----------- 39 - relatively easy gear




After that it is harder stuff:
+2 Cha Yugo Pot = +1 DC
+1 Cha from a +2 guild buff = +.5 DC
+1->+3 Cha from House D pots +1.5 DC
+7 Cha item = +.5 DC
+2 Cha Store Potion = +1 DC

The above stuff is the hard to get/maintain boosts to your cha - while the intial break down is much easier. I have probably missed something.

HTH

[ArdanosMerrow]

Cha:
1 +3 tome
3 exceptional
----------- 42 relatively easy gear

A +3 tome is not "relatively easy gear" imo due to the fact that most come from 20 raid completions and still require luck to actually get the correct tome. The +3 exceptional doesn't either, I included the +1 exc because I do feel its relatively easy to get a ToD ring with +cha, however, the +3 requires 9 trophies or LDS for a GS and as this isn't a priority character it's going to be waiting in line as I stated earlier.

2 42 Charisma
1 Dreamspitter
----------- 39 - relatively easy gear

Also laughed at that. I've done 80+ reavers and haven't pulled a dreamspitter so I don't classify that as "relatively easy" either.

DC:
2 Capstone
-------------
2 42 Charisma
1 Dreamspitter
----------- 39 - relatively easy gear

The capstone bonus to DC's, however, is where you hit the nail on the head. I was counting the charisma bonus but had completely forgotten the +2 DC's to enchant. The additional capstone bonus does make this more viable imo.

Thank you for pointing out what I missed/overlooked.

[BoBoDaClown]

A +3 tome is not "relatively easy gear" imo due to the fact that most come from 20 raid completions and still require luck to actually get the correct tome. The +3 exceptional doesn't either, I included the +1 exc because I do feel its relatively easy to get a ToD ring with +cha, however, the +3 requires 9 trophies or LDS for a GS and as this isn't a priority character it's going to be waiting in line as I stated earlier.




Also laughed at that. I've done 80+ reavers and haven't pulled a dreamspitter so I don't classify that as "relatively easy" either.



The capstone bonus to DC's, however, is where you hit the nail on the head. I was counting the charisma bonus but had completely forgotten the +2 DC's to enchant. The additional capstone bonus does make this more viable imo.

Thank you for pointing out what I missed/overlooked.

Whether or not my terminology of 'relatively easy' is appropriate is kind of irrelevant - I gave you a breakdown on how you can reach certain DCs, you can decide on what is easy for you (my terminology is based on what was easy for me).

[ArdanosMerrow]

Whether or not my terminology of 'relatively easy' is appropriate is kind of irrelevant - I gave you a breakdown on how you can reach certain DCs, you can decide on what is easy for you (my terminology is based on what was easy for me).

Well my original question never asked about a gear breakdown on how to increase DC's as I'm well aware of +2 focus items and additional ways of increasing Cha.

It did ask if I had missed anything, and I had, the DC bonus of capstone. You have done me a service by pointing it out.

Thank you.

[Irinis]

So to sum up, 36 DC is pretty easy, 38 is relatively easy but still a bit grindy (I got lucky to get Staff of the Petitioner within 5 Abbotts), and 39+ gets into grindy territory.

[Forlan]

I Manged to get my 2nd tr wf Wiz/sorc/Wiz to a 40 dc on ench spells. w/+1 int ship buff. I've noticed after dieing and lossing that +1 int (and having my dc drop back down to 39) Things start saving as much as not. With the 40 dc My ench catch at will.

Just doing math in my head. I want to say 46-47 would be the max dc you could end up with on ench with wiz/bard active past lifes.

[brinclhof]

can some one help me understand something about how spell dc is calculated.

Ok here is what I have. Lvl 20 character 17 bard/3 rogue.

16 base cha
+2 tome
4 lvl ups in cha
+6 cha item
+2 to cha from enhancemtents
------
30 charisma

I have the spell focus for enchantment spells so that adds +2
I have bracers of enchantment that add a +1

I have the spell pen feat and two spell pen enhancements.

so what should my spell dc be.

the reason I ask is my lvl 4 cc spells currently have a will save of 26 which seems low to me....my lvl 5 have a 27 and my lvl 2 a 24.

so am I calculating some thing wrong or is the will save not the indicator of spell DC.

[Valindria]

can some one help me understand something about how spell dc is calculated.

Ok here is what I have. Lvl 20 character 17 bard/3 rogue.

16 base cha
+2 tome
4 lvl ups in cha
+6 cha item
+2 to cha from enhancemtents
------
30 charisma

I have the spell focus for enchantment spells so that adds +2
I have bracers of enchantment that add a +1

I have the spell pen feat and two spell pen enhancements.

so what should my spell dc be.

the reason I ask is my lvl 4 cc spells currently have a will save of 26 which seems low to me....my lvl 5 have a 27 and my lvl 2 a 24.

so am I calculating some thing wrong or is the will save not the indicator of spell DC.

Spell DC/Spell Pen:
- Spell DC = 10 + Spell Level + Casting Stat Modifier* + Items + Feats
- Spell Pen = 1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses (include feats, enhancements and items)

* You modifier is (CHA -10)/2 in your case the modifier is 10 ((30-10)/2)

I'm not sure what is up I would think from what you said it would be:

27 - 10 +4(spell) +10(cha) + 1(item) +2(feats)

Your Spell Pen would be +20 (17+1(feat)+2(enhancements)) or 21-40 depending on your roll.

[Henrieta]

The good thing about dancing ball is that it lasts for a while. So even if they make their save the first time, you can run them through it over and over until they start dancing.

Also, did you take heighten feat?

Greater enchantment focus +2 can be found on dreamspitter, abbot staff and epic spectacles of spirit sight (+1 on non epic)....

[BoBoDaClown]

can some one help me understand something about how spell dc is calculated.

Ok here is what I have. Lvl 20 character 17 bard/3 rogue.

16 base cha
+2 tome
4 lvl ups in cha
+6 cha item
+2 to cha from enhancemtents
------
30 charisma

I have the spell focus for enchantment spells so that adds +2
I have bracers of enchantment that add a +1

I have the spell pen feat and two spell pen enhancements.

so what should my spell dc be.

the reason I ask is my lvl 4 cc spells currently have a will save of 26 which seems low to me....my lvl 5 have a 27 and my lvl 2 a 24.

so am I calculating some thing wrong or is the will save not the indicator of spell DC.

To be honest your CC on a splashed bard is always going to be pretty weak. With that level split I'd lesser reincarnate +1, and go 16/3/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter, ditch a lot of the charisma, put the levels ups into str, and pick up fighting feats (such as twf).

If your DCs are mid/high 20s at level 20 worthwhile opponents are going to be doing a lot saving.

The reason why your will saves change based on spell level is because you don't have 'heighten'. Heighten means all your CC spells are considered 6th level spells for DC calculations.

[Aashrym]

To be honest your CC on a splashed bard is always going to be pretty weak.

This.

With a bard if a player wants spell CC it's pure or change focus. CHA required.