Me Wants PRE

[The_Cataclysm]

Elemental Savants are currently slated as in development for Update 9.

Nice to know. Any other PREs in the works for update 9?

[DasLurch]

While I am always happy to hear about more and more of these entering the game, I'd love to have an idea of what they may entail, so I can start planning now. Please?

And to go with that, I will also be hoping to see the final stages of the remaining rogue and ranger PRE's as well.

[Jaid314]

i'm just hoping that it won't be completely useless. not that i'm expecting much, mind you... but i'm hoping that it will be somewhat like the pale master in terms of granting extra toughness, immunities, etc. at least that way, it wouldn't be a complete waste of AP for me to take it. (if, on the other hand, it's nothing more than a bit of bonus damage and crit chance, i'll probably just ignore it... i'm not wasting APs just so that i can take a sub-par prestige enhancement that does nothing worthwhile in end-game)

[Tomalon]

Elemental Savants are currently slated as in development for Update 9.

Weren't they originally released with ''MOD'' 9 but broken and pulled from the game like a week later? Hey only 9 'updates' later they get fixed and back in game.

I want your job!

Boss ''The sorc PrEs are broken''
Employee ''I'll get right on it but i think it'll take about a year to fix''

All jokes aside glad to see they are getting fixed and put back in.

[Xaearth]

Elemental Savants are currently slated as in development for Update 9.

I see. Will wizzies get the opportunity to turn themselves into boxes in the near future as well?

Us generalist wizards are still waiting for our PrE... Being able to farm ourselves for ransack might just make us useful once the sorc PrE's hit.

[jakeelala]

Along with...

...the melee FvS line? Pretty please?

Isn't a melee FvS line just a paladin?

[sirgog]

i'm just hoping that it won't be completely useless. not that i'm expecting much, mind you... but i'm hoping that it will be somewhat like the pale master in terms of granting extra toughness, immunities, etc. at least that way, it wouldn't be a complete waste of AP for me to take it. (if, on the other hand, it's nothing more than a bit of bonus damage and crit chance, i'll probably just ignore it... i'm not wasting APs just so that i can take a sub-par prestige enhancement that does nothing worthwhile in end-game)

If boosts to damage output are significant, they will turn Sorcs into viable DPS toons, especially if they contain significant SP cost reductions to the single-shot nukes.

The big problem, IMO, is that sorc damage doesn't scale much with gear. A barbarian that goes up against elite Arraetrikos with a +1 silver of pure good greatsword, no Seeker item, a +4 Strength item and similar other gear might do 150 damage per second (that's a pure guess), and an epic-geared one with an eSOS with Devil's Ruin augment might deal 450. A terribly geared Sorc might do 200 damage per second, but a geared one might only manage 280 (and can't sustain it through fights with bosses with 200k+ hp in raids, or 100k+ hp in parties). Plus, they are hammered badly by the common 80 point resists endgame bosses all seem to have.

[BananaHat]

Isn't a melee FvS line just a paladin?

Kinda... but paladins generally don't heal raids in their downtime.

Swing swing swing swing mmmaaassssss hhheeeaaalll swing swing... you get the picture.

Keeping everyone else alive cuts into my personal DPS, but I guess the rest of the party's DPS counts as mine if I keep them alive... right?? Right?!?! I hope they do warpriest/melee FvS at the same time (and next update!), similar to how they did Stalwart Defender/Defender of Siberys together. I'm kinda assuming they will be somewhat similar in the end.

Something that let's you keep fighting while helping the party would be great. Like... when you do a vorpal attack (natural 20 instead of on crit to keep it even between favored weapons) you emit a healing pulse or some sort of divine/sacred/profane bonus to attack/damage/double strike/whatever. Of course, warpriests may end up using their turns for something while FvS's can't do that.

[Ghoste]

While I think PRE's for Sorc are overdue, I'm not sure why people seem so interested in the elemental savants.
Adding another few % of damage and/or crit chances seems ,well, underpowered at endgame. Given the dev comments in the ice storm thread,we can be fairly sure that elemental substitution (ie lightningwall/acidwall) won't be available.
Although who knows, I admit it is a bit odd to complain about PRE's not in the game yet.

Don't forget elemental immunity.

[Ghoste]

While I think PRE's for Sorc are overdue, I'm not sure why people seem so interested in the elemental savants.
Adding another few % of damage and/or crit chances seems ,well, underpowered at endgame. Given the dev comments in the ice storm thread,we can be fairly sure that elemental substitution (ie lightningwall/acidwall) won't be available.
Although who knows, I admit it is a bit odd to complain about PRE's not in the game yet.

Don't forget elemental immunity and spell like abilities.

[Jaid314]

Don't forget elemental immunity and spell like abilities.

i very much doubt they'd give elemental immunity. my guess is that we might, at *best* pick up some amount of absorption. more likely, imo, we'll wind up with an extra 10 points of resistance.

or do you mean elemental immunity in the sense that we get the immunities that elementals get, like 100% fort etc?

[Seventh]

Elemental Savants are currently slated as in development for Update 9.

Bam. Details Plz!

So wizards were basically inferior for 4 years, and this was kind of the accepted fact without so much as a wave of the hand, but now that wizards get a little love, the sorcs start moaning about theirs, heh.

The update will come soon enough, and the game isnt any harder for sorcs than it used to be. Its just easier for classes who got their love first.

When you've got a charisma score as high as ours, you're just not used to not getting your way all the time.

[shagath]

i very much doubt they'd give elemental immunity. my guess is that we might, at *best* pick up some amount of absorption. more likely, imo, we'll wind up with an extra 10 points of resistance.

or do you mean elemental immunity in the sense that we get the immunities that elementals get, like 100% fort etc?

Logical would be assume that if you turn to a fire elemental form you are totally immune to fire etc.. Just assumption but still it would be very logical. Like in pale master form you are totally immune to positive healing. Perhaps fire could even heal you. Perhaps walk around shrouded by incendiary cloud that heals you. Would change a bit how cool it would be shieldblock in wall of fire. :P

[Jaid314]

if they really do grant healing from your element of choice, it'll be pretty funny. you'll have one fire sorc for part 1 ToD repairing the main tank, and one cold sorc for 'kiting' in part 2 ToD. and by kiting i mean standing in the wall of fire, repairing the main tank or something like that (refreshing the wall occasionally to keep new aggro) while everyone else kills the boss.

basically, it would trivialise ToD. mind you, most raids already are trivialised anyways, so it's not like it would be a huge change.

[sirgog]

I'm hoping for something like +3% stacking crit chance and +0.5x stacking crit intensity on all spells of your chosen element, -25% SP cost on selected spells of your element (not persistant AoE spells), +50% SP cost on spells of the opposite element, +2 DC to spells of your chosen element, 20% elemental absorb for it, and at level 18, some amount (maybe 20%) of the damage spells of your chosen element do is untyped damage.

That might make a nuker sorc viable at endgame. Maybe.

[FluffyCalico]

+50% SP cost on spells of the opposite element, That might make a nuker sorc viable at endgame. Maybe.

Nope this would be a game breaker.
If they impliment this you would have to spec for only 1 element as the opposite would be too costly to use and there are not enough enhancemnts to max out 2 lines to get diagonal elements like lighting and fire. One of them would be gimp by the time you take the pre enhancements which would put you back at having just 1 element. A caster who can only effectively use 1 element is not helpful.

[sirgog]

Nope this would be a game breaker.
If they impliment this you would have to spec for only 1 element as the opposite would be too costly to use and there are not enough enhancemnts to max out 2 lines to get diagonal elements like lighting and fire. One of them would be gimp by the time you take the pre enhancements which would put you back at having just 1 element. A caster who can only effectively use 1 element is not helpful.

I've heard someone say the Devs were looking at splitting the element lines. If not, then yeah, cost increases on the opposite element go from a modest and flavourful drawback to a crippling one.

[Kirlian]

This is my idea of what when and how. So let me say what I would like to see.

Acid savant:
At lvl 6 you can summon lesser earth elemental, your acid spells will do 5% more dmg, and you can caste Melf's acid arrow as a spell like ability 2AP
At lvl 12 you can cover yourself in acid-earth elemental shroud take some abilities of the elemental gaining 2 natural bonus to your constitution, 5hp and DR5 adamantine. There is a chance your connection with earth will perform earth grab on your enemies. In addition your acid spells will do 5%more dmg and you will crit 3% more often, you can cast acid rain as a spell like ability 4AP.
At lvl 15 your transmutation spells get +1DC. When you are in Earth elemental form you can cast earth grab on your enemies ( DC lvl6 spell) you gain additional 10hp and your acid spells crit multiplier increase 0.25
At lvl 18 Your earth grab cool down is reduced to 3 sec, your earth grab deals 1d3 acid and 1d3 bludgeon dmg per caster lvl. You can cast acid fog as a spell like ability. When in Earth elemental form you gain additional 10hp. Your acid spells dmg improve 5% your crit 3% more and multiplier gets additional 0.25 2AP.

Cold savant:
At lvl 6 you can summon lesser snow elemental, your cold spells will do additional 5% dmg 2AP.
At lvl12 you can cover yourself in shroud of ice 1d3 cold dmg per caster lvl and get a chance to freeze enemy for 6sec. take some abilities of snow elemental. You can cast snow ball swarm as spell like ability; in addition your cold spells will do additional 5% dmg and critical chances are increased by 3% 4AP.
At lvl 15 your conjuration spells get +1to DC, your ice spells critical multiplier increase 0.25, you can take control over your freezing aura, as a spell like ability (DC being calculated as lvl6 spell), 2AP.
At lvl 18 you can take form of an Elder ice flenser (gaining most of flensers elemental abilities), you can cast ice spike growth, your cold spells dmg improve 5% your crit 3% more and multiplier gets additional 0.25 2AP.
Or ice dragon shroud (epic chronoscope anyone)

Fire savant:
At lvl 6 you can summon lesser fire elemental, your fire spells will do additional 5% dmg 2AP
At lvl12 you can cover yourself in shroud of flames 1d3 per caster lvl and take some abilities of fire elemental (DR 5, 25% fire absorption as I think immunity is bit too much), you can cast fire ball as spell like ability, in addition your fire spells will do additional 5% dmg and critical chances are increased by 3% 4AP.
At lvl 15 your evocation spells get +1to DC,your fire elemental shroud has a chance to blind enemies, your fire spels critical multiplier increase for 0.25 2AP.
At lvl18 you can take form of an Elder fire elemental (gaining most of fire elemental abilities fire absorption 45%, vulnerability to cold), you can cast DFB as spell like ability, your fire spells dmg gets 5% your crit 3%chance and multipl additional 0.25 2AP
Or we can swap fire elemental for shroud of red dragon and change fire ball into red dragon breath scaled with level.

Air savant:

At lvl6 you can summon lesser air elemental, your lightning spells will do additional 5%dmg, you can cast electric loop as a spell like ability 2AP
At lvl12 you can cover yourself in air elemental shroud gaining some of Air elemental abilities. You can cast lightning bolt as a spell like ability,your lightning spells will do additional 5% dmg and critical chances are increased by 3% 4AP.
At lvl 15 your evocation spells get +1DC your air guard DC and percentage from air elemental shroud increase, your lightning spells critical multiplier increase for 0.25 2AP
At lvl 18 you can cast lightning storm as a spell like ability, in addition your lightning spells have chance to stun enemies on failed fortitude save. your lightning spells dmg gets 5% your crit 3%chance and multipl additional 0.25 2AP

[SisAmethyst]

Acid savant:
...
At lvl 15 your transmutation spells get +1DC. When you are in Earth elemental form you can cast earth grab on your enemies ( DC lvl6 spell) you gain additional 10hp and your acid spells crit multiplier increase 0.25
...

Cold savant:
...
At lvl 15 your conjuration spells get +1to DC, your ice spells critical multiplier increase 0.25, you can take control over your freezing aura, as a spell like ability (DC being calculated as lvl6 spell), 2AP.
...

Fire savant:
...
At lvl 15 your evocation spells get +1to DC,your fire elemental shroud has a chance to blind enemies, your fire spels critical multiplier increase for 0.25 2AP.
...

Air savant:
...
At lvl 15 your evocation spells get +1DC your air guard DC and percentage from air elemental shroud increase, your lightning spells critical multiplier increase for 0.25 2AP
...

Well, not sure if we will see a bump of a school in the Elemental Savant which you would probably go the Archmage instead. Especially as resist/protection/nuke would be either Abjuration or Evocation spells. Which would mean neither Conjuration or Transmutation would really fit into it. A Monk that become an Lawful Outsider doesn't become this through Transmutation but through his study and focus (you can't dis-spell it). Therefore 'Elemental Perfection' wouldn't be a Transmutation either.

What would be far more interesting I think are three aspects:
1. The natural resistance/protection against the main elemental stat
2. The possibility for Energy Substitution
3. The increase of Energy Penetration

Something along the line:

Table: Elemental Savant

Level  |  Special Ability
---------+------------------------------------------------------
  1st     |  Elemental Specialty, Resistance to Energy 5
  2nd   |  Immunity to Sleep
  3rd    |  Energy Penetration +2
  4th     |  Resistance to Energy 10
  5th     |  Energy Focus +1
  6th     |  Darkvision
  7th     |  Resistance to Energy 20
  8th     |  Energy Penetration +4
  9th     |  Immunity to Paralysis and Poison
10th     |  Elemental Perfection, Energy Focus +2, Energy Immunity

With the following description, leaving out the Immunity to Sleep, Paralysis and Poison as well as Darkvision as they are either not usable or covered by other things like the choice of race or items. Nor included in the list is the Spellcasting Increase as this would be common to a regular Sorcerer:

Elemental Specialty (Ex):
The first step toward transcending mortal form requires an elemental savant to choose her elemental specialty. Upon entering the class, she must select an element and its associated energy type (air = electricity, earth = acid, fire = fire, or water = cold).
This choice must match the Energy Substitution feat that the savant selected to gain entry to the prestige class.

When the savant casts a spell that normally deals energy damage, its energy descriptor changes to the savant's chosen energy type, and it deals damage of that energy type instead of its normal energy type.

For example, an elemental savant choosing to specialize in fire could still cast Meld Into Stone, and its descriptor would not change because it does not deal energy damage.
However, if she casts Acid Arrow, the spell would deal fire damage and have the fire descriptor instead of dealing acid damage and having the acid descriptor.

Resistance to Energy (Ex):
As an elemental savant gains levels in this prestige class, she becomes more resistant to the type of energy allied with her chosen element.

At 1st level, she gains resistance 5 against this energy type. This resistance rises to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 7th level.

Energy Penetration (Ex):
Beginning at 3rd level, an elemental savant further refines her ability to wield energy associated with her chosen element.

When she casts a spell using that type of energy, she gains a +2 competence bonus on caster level checks (1d20+caster level) to overcome a creature's resistance.

At 8th level, this bonus increases to +4. These bonuses stack with those granted by the Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats.

Energy Focus (Ex):
From 5th level on, an elemental savant is better able to manipulate energy associated with her chosen element. The save DC for any spell with that energy descriptor increases by 1.

At 10th level, these save DCs increase by 1 again (total increase of 2). These increases are cumulative with those granted by the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats.

Elemental Perfection:
At 10th level, an elemental savant, through long association with elemental entities and extensive study of their secrets, completely transcends her mortal form to become an elemental creature.

Her type changes to elemental. She no longer needs to eat, sleep, or breathe (though she must still rest to regain spells). She gains an elemental creature's immunity to stunning, and she is no longer subject to extra damage from critical hits or flanking.

An elemental savant gains the speed and movement modes, natural attacks, special attacks, and special qualities of a Medium elemental of the type appropriate to her elemental specialty, as noted in the Monster Manual, except that the save DC against here elemental attack form, if any (whirlwind, burn, or vortex) is 20 + her Con modifier.

Unlike a normal elemental, an elemental savant retains a soul separate from her body. She can be raised from the dead as normal for a creature of her previous type.

Energy Immunity(Ex):
From 10th level on, an elemental savant gains immunity to the type of energy associated with her chosen element.


see reference

[Kirlian]

Well, not sure if we will see a bump of a school in the Elemental Savant which you would probably go the Archmage instead. Especially as resist/protection/nuke would be either Abjuration or Evocation spells. Which would mean neither Conjuration or Transmutation would really fit into it. A Monk that become an Lawful Outsider doesn't become this through Transmutation but through his study and focus (you can't dis-spell it). Therefore 'Elemental Perfection' wouldn't be a Transmutation either.

What would be far more interesting I think are three aspects:
1. The natural resistance/protection against the main elemental stat
2. The possibility for Energy Substitution
3. The increase of Energy Penetration

Something along the line:

Table: Elemental Savant

Level  |  Special Ability
---------+------------------------------------------------------
  1st     |  Elemental Specialty, Resistance to Energy 5
  2nd   |  Immunity to Sleep
  3rd    |  Energy Penetration +2
  4th     |  Resistance to Energy 10
  5th     |  Energy Focus +1
  6th     |  Darkvision
  7th     |  Resistance to Energy 20
  8th     |  Energy Penetration +4
  9th     |  Immunity to Paralysis and Poison
10th     |  Elemental Perfection, Energy Focus +2, Energy Immunity

see reference

I like it I have to admit I have never seen it, and yes I don't and never did play pnp. What I suggested is what would be achievable in ddo. Spell focus comes as a flavour, and adds bigger chances on these 'special' attacks. Conjuration spells according to ddo compendium is what most acid /ice spells are. Transmutation was pure flavour for earth grab. that extra constitution and hp come from the same source as wizard lich form. I'm not sure if it can be dispeled. On the other note these 10 tiers of elemental savant can be easily blend with improving elemental shroud forms as sorcerer levels up. Oh elemental can be paralysed, they cannot be held (in ddo).