"Damage over time dice?"

[bradleyforrest]

I believe he was referring to the fact that the damage on icestorm was reduced when they removed the scaling and now has been reduced again by giving it unweighted dice.

Two-fold reduction.

Yes, thank you. That is what I was trying to say.

[hityawithastick]

I'd like to point out that I was running around on Khyber using Wall of Ice and it was quite effective against orthons and breezykillrawrs. The untyped 'bludgeoning' damage hits fully, and the ice damage is reduced by about 10-15. In My Humble Opinion, the longer-duration ice storm will be a good alternative to WoF, especially while running around the Vale.

[bradleyforrest]

I'd like to point out that I was running around on Khyber using Wall of Ice and it was quite effective against orthons and breezykillrawrs. The untyped 'bludgeoning' damage hits fully, and the ice damage is reduced by about 10-15. In My Humble Opinion, the longer-duration ice storm will be a good alternative to WoF, especially while running around the Vale.

I believe that even on live it still gives +1/CL to both the ice and bludgeoning damage.

[Schmoe]

So, as you can see, WoF is not just twice, but almost 3(!) times more SP efficient as Ice Storm is in this current incarnation.

Sure, I'm not contesting that. The revelation that damage-over-time spells use standard dice also didn't change that.

Look, every spell is a niche spell, it's just a matter of how small the niche is. I definitely understand the points about WoF with undead quests (and there are a LOT of undead quests). The problem is that making a spell that competes with WoF against undead content would require it to be overpowered in other content. You can't really use the undead quests as a basis around which to balance a spell.

In your calculations, if you remove extend from the equation, the comparison is

WoF 26 damage/sp
IS 17 damage/sp

That's still close enough that IS would be useful as a niche spell. I think all the devs really need to do is make IS extendable. But it hasn't been extendable from the beginning, so the assessment of Ice Storm's value only changes based on the removal of per level scaling, not the change in damage dice or anything else, which was my original point.

[finalf18]

Well, Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements (and Inferno clickies) to the bludgeoning portion of the spell. I don't see why they'd change IS so that it wasn't.

Thats a relief.

Side Note: Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements? Go figure. I have been using it for over a year and never noticed. O well, my next toon shall be named Mr Magoo.

[bradleyforrest]

Sure, I'm not contesting that. The revelation that damage-over-time spells use standard dice also didn't change that.

Look, every spell is a niche spell, it's just a matter of how small the niche is. I definitely understand the points about WoF with undead quests (and there are a LOT of undead quests). The problem is that making a spell that competes with WoF against undead content would require it to be overpowered in other content. You can't really use the undead quests as a basis around which to balance a spell.

In your calculations, if you remove extend from the equation, the comparison is

WoF 26 damage/sp
IS 17 damage/sp

That's still close enough that IS would be useful as a niche spell. I think all the devs really need to do is make IS extendable. But it hasn't been extendable from the beginning, so the assessment of Ice Storm's value only changes based on the removal of per level scaling, not the change in damage dice or anything else, which was my original point.

The only reason the I brought up the undead quest with firewall is because you brought up the use of IS against fire monsters at lvl 10.

I'm not interested in making IS compete with WoF when WoF is used against undead. I just want it to compete with WoF on normal damage. I couldn't care less if there was a "IS deals double damage to X type" clause. I would just like for it to be in the ballpark. Sadly, it really isn't.

Also, do people cast WoF without extend? Hell, I don't think I've ever turned the feat off.

[gurgar78]

Sure, I'm not contesting that. The revelation that damage-over-time spells use standard dice also didn't change that.

Look, every spell is a niche spell, it's just a matter of how small the niche is. I definitely understand the points about WoF with undead quests (and there are a LOT of undead quests). The problem is that making a spell that competes with WoF against undead content would require it to be overpowered in other content. You can't really use the undead quests as a basis around which to balance a spell.

In your calculations, if you remove extend from the equation, the comparison is

WoF 26 damage/sp
IS 17 damage/sp

That's still close enough that IS would be useful as a niche spell. I think all the devs really need to do is make IS extendable. But it hasn't been extendable from the beginning, so the assessment of Ice Storm's value only changes based on the removal of per level scaling, not the change in damage dice or anything else, which was my original point.

5d6 has a significantly different average output than 5d3+15. The value of the spell was reduced. It can still be used to fill the same niche it would have been used for anyway, but it will be less effective at doing so.

[bradleyforrest]

Thats a relief.

Side Note: Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements? Go figure. I have been using it for over a year and never noticed. O well, my next toon shall be named Mr Magoo.

Yup. When the change was first announced and people were speculating that the bludgeoning damage wouldn't be modified by enhancements, I broke out MS and tested. With only the fire/ice enhancements modifying my damage, I was geting a minimum of 12 damage from the bludgeoning portion.

[morrok73]

Not complaining but even with a sup pot item and a major ice lore item the damage is too low to warrant a spell slot.Just an opinion .

[Schmoe]

The only reason the I brought up the undead quest with firewall is because you brought up the use of IS against fire monsters at lvl 10.

I guess I was just trying to point out that there are niches for the spell to excel in, even if the niches aren't as large as that of WoF.

I'm not interested in making IS compete with WoF when WoF is used against undead. I just want it to compete with WoF on normal damage. I couldn't care less if there was a "IS deals double damage to X type" clause. I would just like for it to be in the ballpark. Sadly, it really isn't.

Well, against a standard dude with no special resistances or weaknesses, WoF trumps IS every time. You can go one of two ways - make IS trump WoF in standard circumstances and WoF better situationally, or vice versa. It seems the devs want WoF to be better in standard circumstances and IS better situationally. That's the way it stands now. As long as it's not completely worthless outside of those special circumstances, I think it's fine.

The way I see it, the last condition is the contentious part. Looking at the numbers, I agree that it's currently bordering on being completely worthless in normal situations. Make it extendable, and it seems fine to me.

Also, do people cast WoF without extend? Hell, I don't think I've ever turned the feat off.

All the time. In fact, I rarely turn it on, as most things seem to be dead well before the un-extended WoF wears out.

[bradleyforrest]

As long as it's not completely worthless outside of those special circumstances, I think it's fine.

The way I see it, the last condition is the contentious part. Looking at the numbers, I agree that it's currently bordering on being completely worthless in normal situations.

That's just it. It's so weak that it's just not worth using in place of WoF unless the mobs are fire-immune. Extend would help, but only just.

[Jiipster]

Another thing to note is that the Cold-damage part and the Bludgeoning-damage part are counted as two different spells, meaning separate crit-rolls. You'll be seeing a lot of crits with this spell.

[bradleyforrest]

Another thing to note is that the Cold-damage part and the Bludgeoning-damage part are counted as two different spells, meaning separate crit-rolls. You'll be seeing a lot of crits with this spell.

You'll see about as many IS crit-ticks as you will on an extended WoF.

[Jiipster]

You'll see about as many IS crit-ticks as you will on an extended WoF.

True, but in half the time.

[BruxaDo71]

I am disappointed.

The cost/benefit is too low in comparison with WoF. Here another points to consider:
* Bludgeon damage is unaffected by enhancements.
* There is a delay between when you cast and the first tick.
* Lot of monster have ice resist, what make spells "tick-based" less effective.
* Noobs will complain about the "lag" if you cast on a boss.

IMO, Ice Storm will be a secondary spell used only on rare occasions.

[gurgar78]

True, but in half the time.

And?

Your crit rate is the same for both spells which means that the average increase in spell damage is the same for both spells. Twice as many crits for half the damage works out to the same amount of added damage. Unless you have some kind of effect that produces a bonus whenever you crit with a spell, there is absolutely no advantage for Icestorm to produce more crits.

[LunaCee]

Firewall:
~145 Normal
~399 Critical
~196 Average Damage

Icestorm:
~38 Ice Normal
~56 Bludgeon Normal
~94 Normal Combined
~103 Ice Critical
~155 Bludgeon Critical
~258 Critical Combined
~51 Ice Average
~76 Bludgeon Average
~127 Average Damage

Oh look... Firewall is *still* about 50% ahead in pure damage alone. So what if it gets twice as many critical ticks during a certain time frame. The damage is *split* and both sides will get the same average number of critical hits. Even more important is the fact that the ice damage is low enough that one will usually see at least half of it eaten by resists. That lowers it total actual effective damage a fair amount.

[bradleyforrest]

* Bludgeon damage is unaffected by enhancements.

This is false. That said, it's still too low on the damage front.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Reroll.






J/k.

[sirgog]

/sigh.


With the loaded dice and no caster level scaling, it was just worth casting in a few situations at high level. Now it isn't. Damage per mana against a 30 cold resist boss is almost identical to Polar Ray.

Prior to the 'honest dice' this spell was worth casting. Now, the only times I can see myself preparing it on a Wizard beyond level 12 or so are for the fire bats in VoD.