"Damage over time dice?"

[bradleyforrest]

NEW (Lammania Only): A bug that was causing Ice Storm's damage to scale improperly has been corrected. Ice Storm's damage dice has been set to "damage over time dice" and now does 3d6 blunt damage and 2d6 cold damage.

What do you mean with that term?

[Eladrin]

NEW (Lammania Only): A bug that was causing Ice Storm's damage to scale improperly has been corrected. Ice Storm's damage dice has been set to "damage over time dice" and now does 3d6 blunt damage and 2d6 cold damage.

What do you mean with that term?

Unweighted dice.

Lingering damage over time effects in DDO generally use actual d6's (or whatever the die size is) rather than ones that skew high.

[bradleyforrest]

Unweighted dice.

Lingering damage over time effects in DDO generally use actual d6's (or whatever the die size is) rather than ones that skew high.

Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Good job. Guess I don't need to find a lvl 4 spell slot after all.

[LunaCee]

So not only does it not have nice high damage for higher level characters, plus the fact it cannot be extended, but it now it has significantly lower minimum damage output. *sighs* Firewall is still the absolute king of all when it works then.

I believe you guys over-reacted and gave it the old triple swing with the nerf-bat when you only needed to smack it once.

[bradleyforrest]

Maths, assuming the unweighted dice are used on both:
Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 20/tick ~ 26/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Most of the time, you'll be casting these with Empower, Maximize, Superior Potency, and 4 tiers of enhancements. Actual damage is Base * (Item + Enhancements + 1) * (1 + Metamagics)
So we're looking at these for numbers
WoF = 26 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 123
IS = 17 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 80

So, less total damage per tick from IS than WoF but can't be extended and doesn't have the pass-through damage. The ONLY thing that IS has going for it is that 60% of the damage is bludgeoning. And don't forget that FoM appears to be making mobs immune to it.

Congrats. You've nerfed the spell that you hoped to make better and turned it into a spell that fills a very small niche.

[Samiusbot]

How much damage does a Wof do vs an orthon?
How much vs Harry, Sulu, etc?

How about Ice storm?

Some is more then 0 right?

[LunaCee]

In order for IS to even begin to be worth slotting it needs to deal effectively twice as much damage as it will be with this change at level 20. IS cannot be extended, it does not have crossover damage, and it doesn't do double damage as a bonus to a enemy subtype beyond their natural weaknesses.

Personally I used superior inferno/freeze items for my math and came up with:
Ice Storm: 17.5*2.15*2.5 = ~94, Firewall: 27*2.15*2.5 = ~145

In other words Firewall does roughly half again as much damage before you take into account double damage versus undead and crossover damage, which puts it significantly over the top in comparison. The fact that extend works on one and not the other is just rubbing it in even further.

[bradleyforrest]

How much damage does a Wof do vs an orthon?
How much vs Harry, Sulu, etc?

How about Ice storm?

Some is more then 0 right?

Enter the niche. Keep in mind that with such a low amount of cold damage being dealt and blocked by resistances that we're largely looking at the bludgeoning portion of the spell's damage here.
60% of 80 is 48. If I thought doing damage numbers like that were worthwhile, I would have kept Arcane Bolt/Blast in my build.

[bradleyforrest]

Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Good job. Guess I don't need to find a lvl 4 spell slot after all.

And neg-repped for voicing my concerns yet again. I guess people are happy to see nothing but firewalls when it comes to meaningful sustained caster DPS.

[Schmoe]

Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Good job. Guess I don't need to find a lvl 4 spell slot after all.

Come on now, that's a bit of an overreaction. As a damage-over-time spell, WoF uses the same dice. I'd hardly call that useless, would you?

[bradleyforrest]

Come on now, that's a bit of an overreaction. As a damage-over-time spell, WoF uses the same dice. I'd hardly call that useless, would you?

WoF gets +1/CL and passthrough damage. That's why it's useful.

Oh, it can also be extended.

Did you even look at the numbers to see where my (and others') concerns are coming from? Saying that it uses the same dice shows a lack of understanding of how the damage is being calculated. Yes, they both use DOT dice, but one of them progressively gets better as you increase in level while the other one stays the same no matter what level you're casting it at.

I'll admit that as it was when it was first updated and made a DOT that it was overpowered, but it didn't need to be reduced this much. As it stands, it's far too weak.

[Schmoe]

Maths, assuming the unweighted dice are used on both:
Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 20/tick ~ 26/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

20th level isn't the only part of the game. Consider 10th level.

Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 10/tick ~ 17/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Ice storm still gets double damage against fire-based creatures (many around), and bludgeoning damage bypasses all resistances/immunities. I assume the FoM interaction is a bug and will eventually be fixed. The decision to not allow Extend is a little confusing (per D&D SRD rules, Ice Storm is extendable), but it's not a deal breaker.

[Schmoe]

WoF gets +1/CL and passthrough damage. That's why it's useful.

Oh, it can also be extended.

Did you even look at the numbers to see where my (and others') concerns are coming from?

You said...

Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Which implies the damage is doubly-reduced when compared to WoF. It's not. The difference between WoF and Ice Storm is the same after this revelation as it was before.

[bradleyforrest]

20th level isn't the only part of the game. Consider 10th level.

Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 10/tick ~ 17/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Ice storm still gets double damage against fire-based creatures (many around), and bludgeoning damage bypasses all resistances/immunities. I assume the FoM interaction is a bug and will eventually be fixed. The decision to not allow Extend is a little confusing (per D&D SRD rules, Ice Storm is extendable), but it's not a deal breaker.

At 10th level there is also the Desert and the the Necropolis, both populated by undead. Change that 17 into a 34 for your comparison.
IS v Fire elementals and other ice vulnerable mobs only doubles the 2d6 damage, not the entire damage output. Change the 17 to a 23.
34 > 23, and that 34 keeps going for twice as long.

[LunaCee]

Ice storm still gets double damage against fire-based creatures (many around)

Ice portion only, which is just 40% of the spell damage. The Ice and Bludgeoning damage are delivered in separate packets. And if we are making the comparison at 10th level the double damage versus undead is key selling point because at that level the arcane will be farming the heck out of Necro 2, Necro 3, Wiz King, and the Desert and Orchard explorer areas. Oh must not forget the various House J & Delera's side quests that can be done at that level either.

I'm sorry but Ice Storm still loses at that level in comparison to Firewall.

[gurgar78]

The difference between WoF and Ice Storm is the same after this revelation as it was before.

I believe he was referring to the fact that the damage on icestorm was reduced when they removed the scaling and now has been reduced again by giving it unweighted dice.

Two-fold reduction.

[finalf18]

Maths, assuming the unweighted dice are used on both:
Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 20/tick ~ 26/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Most of the time, you'll be casting these with Empower, Maximize, Superior Potency, and 4 tiers of enhancements. Actual damage is Base * (Item + Enhancements + 1) * (1 + Metamagics)
So we're looking at these for numbers
WoF = 26 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 123
IS = 17 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 80

So, less total damage per tick from IS than WoF but can't be extended and doesn't have the pass-through damage. The ONLY thing that IS has going for it is that 60% of the damage is bludgeoning. And don't forget that FoM appears to be making mobs immune to it.

Congrats. You've nerfed the spell that you hoped to make better and turned it into a spell that fills a very small niche.

Prefix: I am not trying to get the final nail put in the coffin for Ice Storm so please don’t throw any hard objects

(Ducks and peers over the counter …)

Your math looks like it is applying the cold enhancements/amplifiers to both the cold part and the bludgeoning part of the spell. Is this the way that it is supposed to be working and working on lama now? (I have not tried as of the last “fix”). Depending on how the spell is treated the cold enhancements may impact the non-cold component of the spell (I can’t remember if fire enhancements affect both parts of flame strike).
If the bludgeoning part is not being impacted by the cold enhancements and needs Potency as an item amplifier then your numbers for Ice Storm should be even lower.

(Resumes ducking behind counter...)

[Missing_Minds]

edit: removed because I was dumb.

[bradleyforrest]

You said...



Which implies the damage is doubly-reduced when compared to WoF. It's not. The difference between WoF and Ice Storm is the same after this revelation as it was before.

WoF = 25sp + 15 + 25 + 10 = 75SP (Emp, Max, Entend), 1 minute
IS = 25sp + 15 + 25 = 65SP (Emp, Max) 30 seconds

WoF damage = 123 * 29 ticks = 3,567 damage to a single target
IS damage = 80 * 14 ticks = 1,120 damage to a single target

WoF efficiency = 3567/75 = 47.56 Damage/SP
IS efficiency = 1120/65 = 17.23 Damage/SP

So, as you can see, WoF is not just twice, but almost 3(!) times more SP efficient as Ice Storm is in this current incarnation.

[bradleyforrest]

Prefix: I am not trying to get the final nail put in the coffin for Ice Storm so please don’t throw any hard objects

(Ducks and peers over the counter …)

Your math looks like it is applying the cold enhancements/amplifiers to both the cold part and the bludgeoning part of the spell. Is this the way that it is supposed to be working and working on lama now? (I have not tried as of the last “fix”). Depending on how the spell is treated the cold enhancements may impact the non-cold component of the spell (I can’t remember if fire enhancements affect both parts of flame strike).
If the bludgeoning part is not being impacted by the cold enhancements and needs Potency as an item amplifier then your numbers for Ice Storm should be even lower.

(Resumes ducking behind counter...)

Well, Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements (and Inferno clickies) to the bludgeoning portion of the spell. I don't see why they'd change IS so that it wasn't.