Dark Monk -- STR or DEX based? UMD?

[Taters214]

I've leveled this monk up to lvl 11 -- planned build is below -- I'm starting to have doubts concerning the following:

1) I opted out of UMD because I wanted to max concentration, search, and disable device, but had too few skill points to max UMD as well. Was this a terrible mistake, I'm wondering. Should I redo this? Please note: I want to do a monk 18/rogue 2 for trapping purposes -- I'm not interested in a pure monk.

2) I rolled him as a dex monk because at the time -- no prior monk xp -- it seemed a good way to go. Now that I have touch of death, I'm in fire stance most of the time to get ki to us ToD. I'm wondering if I should reroll as STR monk, dump DEX, and boost WIS and INT (more skill points for UMD). I seem to get hit no matter what, so having DEX to improve AC seems a waste at this point anyway.

3) I rolled as dwarf because the stat adjustments seemed good for what I was doing +CON and -CHR. I'm wondering if I go STR based if the race should change. I'm hesitant about warforged because I like to solo and I rely heavily on cleric heirlings when doing so. Unless wizard heirlings can keep warforged healed up just as well??? (Never tried that...)

4) In general, I chose lots of my enhancements on educated guesses, and now looking at them, I'm wondering if they could be improved?

Any suggestions/comments on the above points are welcome. If you see other aspects I'm overlooking, please point them out. Right now my monk cleans up and can solo like crazy, but I also need a monk that can handle end-game content and contribute well to groups in raids, etc.

Thank you in advance.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.2
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Matamoros de Verdad
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Dwarf Male
(18 Monk \ 2 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 288
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 19
Will: 15

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 14                   14
Dexterity            15                 19                   20
Constitution         16                 17                   18
Intelligence         14                 14                   14
Wisdom               14                 14                   16
Charisma              6                  6                    6

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               6                  9                   13
Bluff                 0                  0                    0
Concentration         3                 27                   29
Diplomacy            -2                 -2                   -2
Disable Device        6                 21                   21
Haggle               -1                 -1                    3
Heal                  2                  3                    3
Hide                  6                 27                   27
Intimidate           -2                 -2                   -2
Jump                  6                  6                    6
Listen                6                  7                    7
Move Silently         6                 26                   26
Open Lock             6                 10                   10
Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                  2                    2
Search                6                 25                   27
Spot                  6                  7                    7
Swim                  2                  2                    2
Tumble                3                  6                    6
Use Magic Device     n/a               n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I


Level 5 (Monk)
Enhancement: Static Charge


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Porous Soul


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Winter's Touch


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Flame


Level 10 (Monk)
Enhancement: Touch of Death


Level 11 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Adept of Rock


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Adept of Rain


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 14 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Discipline
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey III
Enhancement: Master of Thunder


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: CON
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II


Level 17 (Monk)
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 19 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey IV


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms

[corpman]

do you really want the rogue lvls ?, the monk capstone is really nice and i would take umd for shield wands etc, stay dex and weapon finesse take power attack your damage will still be excellent.

[Ttizz]

aye, go dex as primary stat, with str and con close to each other. With what is left dump into wis for the bonus, my TR 20 dark monk has nice dps and great saves, the capstone is really nice to have.

[jmonty]

I'm hesitant about warforged because I like to solo and I rely heavily on cleric heirlings when doing so. Unless wizard heirlings can keep warforged healed up just as well??? (Never tried that...)

yes hireling clerics can keep up wf well, especially once they get heal.

a bonus is when you find arcane warforged hirelings with repair spells because then you can get the yummy buffs and be kept alive. at higher levels having a hireling with rez and heal is beneficial too.

the extra dps from the warforged power attack enhancements are worth it. and, i say go str as well, especially if you can get a +2 dex tome.

[Carpone]

STR is better than DEX for DPS. AC is largely worthless in DDO, unless you specifically have the right items while you're leveling (if you're a first life monk, you won't have that gear). Bring a healer hireling and you'll have all the healing you need.

You don't need to boost INT to be good at traps. With minimal gear investment you'll be able to disable anything as you level, though I personally don't see the point in it. Every trap in the game can be bypassed through careful timing or just playing smart.

[Taters214]

Thanks for the input, mates.

I've planned out the below build based on the following thoughts:

*I need a DEX of at least 17 to get up to Greater TWF, so I might as well make him weapon finesse and use all abilities raises for DEX to maximize attack bonus.

*Dropped rogue levels to focus on monk and get capstone. As mentioned, disarming traps is not necessary (though I will miss out on 15% xp bonus when soloing) and monks have excellent saves vs. traps, especially with way of the monkey.

*Without rogue levels, I didn't see the point of putting points into UMD. I'd only end up with UMD of 12 at monk lvl 20. Wands have UMD of 18 + spell level. Unless I get UMD geared up -- which I don't have at the moment, and I'm not sure how abundant UMD enhancing gear is -- there doesn't seem to be much point here. Maybe I'm overlooking something here???

*Abilities un-enhanced at lvl 20 are at 16 STR, 20 DEX, 18 CON, 16 WIS -- this seems like a decent balance.

*Decided to try warforged as the racial immunities are nice (though the -2 WIS I don't like much).

Any further thoughts / suggestions are welcome.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.2
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Macabre End
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Warforged Male
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 17
Will: 16

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 16                   16
Dexterity            15                 20                   20
Constitution         16                 16                   18
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom               13                 13                   16
Charisma              6                  6                    6

                  Starting            Ending          
                 Base Skills        Base Skills       
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)        
Balance               5                 20            
Bluff                -2                 -2            
Concentration         7                 27            
Diplomacy            -2                 -2            
Disable Device       n/a               n/a            
Haggle               -2                 -2            
Heal                  1                  3            
Hide                  4                 20            
Intimidate           -2                 -2            
Jump                  3                  3            
Listen                1                  3            
Move Silently         4                 20            
Open Lock             n/a               n/a           
Perform              n/a               n/a            
Repair               -1                 -1            
Search               -1                 -1            
Spot                  1                  3            
Swim                  3                  3            
Tumble                3                  6            
Use Magic Device     n/a               n/a            

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics I


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 5 (Monk)
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I


Level 7 (Monk)
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: Adept of Wind


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Winter's Touch


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Touch of Death


Level 10 (Monk)
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Adept of Flame


Level 11 (Monk)
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey III


Level 13 (Monk)
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I


Level 14 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 17 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Discipline
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms


Level 19 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey IV


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II

[komeback]

Dex based is really only beneficial for high ac builds in order to reach an ac that is fun to play you really have to completely max dex have the right gear and be a halfling as well as have alot of ac consumables at hand while lvling.

With your build now I feel your wasting alot by putting lvl up points in dex it's not doing anything useful for your build but raising your reflex . Which isn't worth it especially considering you could get more damage and save a feat putting those lvl up points into str . And your reflex will still be good without them. If you can get ahold of a plus 2 dex tome you will be set with your current stats .


Very good decision not to splash rogue. I think you will enjoy the class alot more at 20 . And update 8 comes with rogue hirelings. So maybe you can still get your 15 percent exp.

[Taters214]

Dex based is really only beneficial for high ac builds in order to reach an ac that is fun to play you really have to completely max dex have the right gear and be a halfling as well as have alot of ac consumables at hand while lvling.

With your build now I feel your wasting alot by putting lvl up points in dex it's not doing anything useful for your build but raising your reflex . Which isn't worth it especially considering you could get more damage and save a feat putting those lvl up points into str . And your reflex will still be good without them. If you can get ahold of a plus 2 dex tome you will be set with your current stats .


Very good decision not to splash rogue. I think you will enjoy the class alot more at 20 . And update 8 comes with rogue hirelings. So maybe you can still get your 15 percent exp.

I don't have a +2 tome, and let's say I never have one. If I have my DEX start at 15 (keeping STR, CON, WIS high) and put all ability raises into STR as you say, I will only be able to get TWF but not improved or greater TWF--that would not be good, I think, since those feats are great and there are really no others to replace them that are really too beneficial. So, I would need to lower some other stat from the get-go in order to have base DEX 17 at roll. STR and CON start at 16, so they can't reasonably be lowered; thus, the only real candidate is WIS, which would have to be lowered to base 9 in order to get points to have DEX 17 (using warforged). Is it really a good idea to have WIS be so low on a monk?

[Aganthor]

What I do to get ITFW and GTWF is that I put 16 DEX at creation and then use the first ability raise at level 4 and put it in DEX. THat way you get 17 DEX and use the 4 remaining ability raise in STR.

[Therigar]

I currently have a L20 dark monk. He is warforged. I leveled him as a 1 wizard/X monk. After gaining the XP for L20 I used lesser reincarnate to drop the wizard level.

I found that having the ability to wand heal was extremely useful. But, the capstone for monks is too nice IMO.

I would never have considered splashing rogue or going for UMD. IMO the benefits simply are not sufficient to justify taking that approach.

However, if a person really wants UMD they should know that even at half ranks each level UMD can be high enough to use raise dead scrolls w/o failure. This has been shown many times on the forums (for warforged with 6 CHA no less).

FWIW I went the weapon finesse route with starting stats of 14, 15, 16, 10, 14, 6. I did use a +2 tome of supreme ability (or whatever it is called) from the Turbine store at L7. I also put all my stat increases into DEX as I leveled up.

For feats I went with (not necessarily in order of selection):

Deflect Arrows
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
IC: Bludgeoning
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack
Toughness
Stunning Fist
Dodge

IMO the only one of these that is open to personal preference is Deflect Arrows. I found it to be very useful when soloing starting with the sands. Archers got a little too commonplace and seemed to have incredible range and to hit more often & harder than many of the melee mobs starting at about that time.

Edit:

FWIW, going for the few extra points in STR doesn't really matter. I ran two Shroud runs yesterday and held aggro on the lieutenants in both runs. I find that I'm able to get and hold thier aggro in a lot of groups -- probably ~40% of the ones I've been in. IMO having the guaranteed hits with PA turned on that comes from the higher DEX outweighs the extra 2 points of damage per hit that you get from putting stat increases into STR.

[komeback]

FWIW, going for the few extra points in STR doesn't really matter. I ran two Shroud runs yesterday and held aggro on the lieutenants in both runs. I find that I'm able to get and hold thier aggro in a lot of groups -- probably ~40% of the ones I've been in. IMO having the guaranteed hits with PA turned on that comes from the higher DEX outweighs the extra 2 points of damage per hit that you get from putting stat increases into STR.

He is starting with 16 str 15 dex so 5 points in either will give him the same plus to hit. Although if he puts it in str he can drop weapons finesse and he gains more damage per hit. Just 1 extra damage per hit is a big deal on a monk consider how many times they hit. So str is by far a way better option then dex for this build. You gain extra damage and a feat and lose nothing. You can buy a plus 2 dex tome off auction house and I see nothing else in this game you can buy off ah better then a 2 dex tome to make this build optimal. But then again if you can't get one then you can't.

[Therigar]

I agree in a purely mathematical sense that 1 point of damage per hit does make a difference.

However, in the big picture when you are talking about group play the difference is really only 1 or 2 attacks at the most. And, since this usually only matters in the final fights of quests (boss battles) it is really almost impossible to say that the fight would have gone 1 or 2 rounds longer or shorter had you been doing that 1 more point of damage.

You are correct that starting stats make a difference. With a starting DEX of 15 and putting stat increases into DEX my finesse monk does not miss (except on 1) with PA on during normal Shroud runs. What I gain from going with DEX over STR is more AC and that lets me solo more content without using pocket clerics.

Clearly it is a tradeoff and one of personal preference. Because most damage is not coming from the weapons in any case (but instead from the ki attacks) I don't find the loss of 1 or 2 points of damage to be meaningful. I started with 14 STR, ate a +2 tome and wear a +6 STR item. I find 22 STR enough even when soloing. I never find myself wishing that my STR were 28 (which it could be if I had gone with 15 STR and stat increases in STR). I don't miss the 3 points of damage per attack as things die fast enough anyways.

But, that is me. Others will obviously have different views.

[Marmaduke]

wis > str > dex (for dark)

[Ttizz]

Dex based is really only beneficial for high ac builds in order to reach an ac that is fun to play you really have to completely max dex have the right gear and be a halfling as well as have alot of ac consumables at hand while lvling.

With your build now I feel your wasting alot by putting lvl up points in dex it's not doing anything useful for your build but raising your reflex . Which isn't worth it especially considering you could get more damage and save a feat putting those lvl up points into str . And your reflex will still be good without them. If you can get ahold of a plus 2 dex tome you will be set with your current stats .


Very good decision not to splash rogue. I think you will enjoy the class alot more at 20 . And update 8 comes with rogue hirelings. So maybe you can still get your 15 percent exp.

My TR mnk is a dex based wind/dark setup, she is not focused on AC, but more around dps. with the ultimate wind stance, good STR and the instant 250-2000 instant dmg at command, I feel she is decent. When you aren't focused around AC you don't have to suffer because of it. I have a pair of GS aspect of smoke boots (perma blur) on her. And when you stack that with the displacement clicky and the ninja incorpreal and AC she is **** near impossible to hit verses most mobs. By no means is she the end all monk, this is just my 2cp and just another option in the wide world of monk builds.

[Therigar]

wis > str > dex (for dark)

I disagree.

The real decision point for any monk is STR v DEX. Before you even begin calculating how often special attacks or finishers work for you a character has to be able to hit.

So, under every circumstance STR/DEX > WIS.

However, it is certainly true that WIS should not be ignored. And, it is possible that this is more true for dark path monks than light path ones.

I probably don't know all of the best things that I can get out of the class. But, I have found that starting with 14 WIS, eating a +2 tome and equipping a +6 item has been sufficient. I certainly would not consider starting with more WIS or putting stat increases into WIS just to boost the DC on my touch of death/quivering palm/stunning fist attacks.

I started with a 14 STR and 15 DEX then put stat increases into DEX. I made this choice because I planned from the start to spend all my time in wind stance. I needed enough STR to qualify for power attack and enough DEX for the full TWF line.

I honestly don't think that I could have built more efficiently considering the cost in build points for a different stat structure. Race choices might have altered things slightly but both halfling and human posed other problems.

Ultimately DEX and STR were both more important than WIS. The only other stat to compete with WIS for build points was CON. A 2 point increase to starting WIS would cost 4 build points netting +1 to DC checks. That translates to a 4 point drop in CON for -2 HP per level. I could not justify the loss of 40 HP for a +1 boost to DC.

Ultimately I settled on WIS as the least important of the 4 stats that got build focus. I then ran those stats to their optimal level then rebalanced DEX & WIS to squeek out a bit of additional AC. Ended with starting stats of 14, 15, 16, 10, 14, 6.

This distribution wound up giving INT 2 build points. I could have put that into DEX but knew that I was unlikely to craft exceptional DEX. Because I planned to put 5 stat increases into DEX and only planned on +2 tomes I chose to go with the higher INT for the slight increase to skill points. Obviously sitting on an odd number in DEX would have no positive benefit. OTOH, having an extra skill point every level seemed to have benefits.

In any case, this has been my experience and the basis for my disagreeing. I really can't see WIS being any more important than that.

[Marmaduke]

Dex is a joke. Comparatively, you get more attack out of it, and that's that. Wisdom will grant you the same AC for gimp content and your DCs will be miles ahead in epics. The difference between a DC36 anda DC40 SF, Pain Touch, and Freezing the Lifeblood is huge.

[Four20]

Unless you're ONLY soloing with Hireling Clerics. . .and you choose to go WF. I advise that you pick up Improved Monk Recovery(+10% healing amp), Healer's Friend(+10% Healing amp), as well as get the Monk bracers. Since you're in Fire stance most of the time anyway(which you should for Ki generation when using ToD imo. . .unless you have oremi's necklace. . .or have an excellent stun rate and go crane path). While you're in Fire Stance with those bracers it adds another 25% healing amp

Which gets you up to 95%. Again, if you plan on tanking in the game(especially end game raids and epics) which you will if you're dps is high enough, you should do what you can for the healers. Taking those 2 enhancements only costs 2AP(i believe) and then the bracers are good anyway(especially for ML 5)

[Therigar]

Dex is a joke. Comparatively, you get more attack out of it, and that's that. Wisdom will grant you the same AC for gimp content and your DCs will be miles ahead in epics. The difference between a DC36 anda DC40 SF, Pain Touch, and Freezing the Lifeblood is huge.

Unless you can hit incredible numbers focusing on AC is a mistake if you are planning on running epic. There is no question that building onto DCs is also very important if you are running epic.

A player who is focused on getting to epic content should understand those things.

But,

Most players will not do epic content. That means they can get to meaningful AC levels without hitting incredible AC numbers. It also means that they do not need the higher DCs. For them the increase in attack numbers (higher to hit) is worth while.

The thing here is to know what you are building towards. If you are building towards epic then by all means take the drop in DEX and push WIS.

[Therigar]

I advise that you pick up Improved Monk Recovery(+10% healing amp), Healer's Friend(+10% Healing amp), as well as get the Monk bracers.

I have both Monk Recovery and Healer's Friend. I completely agree with this advise. A warforged monk benefits themself and the party by taking one or more of each of these enhancements.

[12floz]

Unless you can hit incredible numbers focusing on AC is a mistake if you are planning on running epic. There is no question that building onto DCs is also very important if you are running epic.

A player who is focused on getting to epic content should understand those things.

But,

Most players will not do epic content. That means they can get to meaningful AC levels without hitting incredible AC numbers. It also means that they do not need the higher DCs. For them the increase in attack numbers (higher to hit) is worth while.

The thing here is to know what you are building towards. If you are building towards epic then by all means take the drop in DEX and push WIS.

I was just thinking the same thing lol. I am by no means running epic yet, I am only level 13...but every post I read talks about pushing Dex/Str. I peruse gear and see a mass amount of items that add to Hit/Dmg, but see very little in the ways of adding to DC. So in my very limited wisdom of game experiance I decided to push Wis. I am honestly not disappointed at all. "I stun ****..thats what I do", has become a very common phrase I use on my Monk. It's not uncommon for me to sneak past thier frontline and deal with some casters while the other crunchies do thier thing. In the end will I regret it? Perhaps...but perhaps not. It is just sad people want the end all answer without doing any leg work. If I end up not liking what I did with my monk DDO gives me the abilitiy to TR and be even more badass as I further my learning process.