Khopesh Vs. Scimitars/rapiers

[Ziindarax]

I know, I know "Khopesh's have better base damage than scimitars/rapiers on enemies that can't be critted".

But here is an interesting conundrum:

TWF paladins can use Scimitars at Character Creation, whereas Khopesh require an extra feat. The thing is, paladins don't get any extra feats at all while leveling up (unlike fighters), and trying to build a pure TWF DPS paladin for the Capstone powers will have the weapon-related feats take up virtually all the feat slots except for one (which presumably must belong to Toughness if you want a character that doesn't die if a pit fiend so much as sneezes on you).

With the Improved Critical Slashing feat, a Khopesh has 20% chance to crit with a x3 multiplier. However, rapiers and scimitars would have a 30% chance to crit, which is huge if you're a twf. Against mobs that cannot suffer critical hits (and do note that their kind are relatively rare compared to most of the mobs you face in the game... with exception to the golems), it would make more sense to either use a two-handed weapon, or switch to longswords/battle-axes.

That being said, a burst weapon (especially an elemental burst weapon + Risia burst) is likely to do more damage in the long run when scimitars are used than when Khopesh's are used. This especially true if you have greater two weapon fighting which makes off-hand attacks 80% likely to occur.


So I ask, why do Paladins *NEED* to use/have Khopesh weapons (and lets' face it, I haven't been very impressed with most of the epic weapons out there; the best epic weapons appear to be the Two-handed weapons that paladins don't need to waste a feat for).

[elraido]

I know, I know "Khopesh's have better base damage than scimitars/rapiers on enemies that can't be critted".

But here is an interesting conundrum:

TWF paladins can use Scimitars at Character Creation, whereas Khopesh require an extra feat. The thing is, paladins don't get any extra feats at all while leveling up (unlike fighters), and trying to build a pure TWF DPS paladin for the Capstone powers will have the weapon-related feats take up virtually all the feat slots except for one (which presumably must belong to Toughness if you want a character that doesn't die if a pit fiend so much as sneezes on you).

With the Improved Critical Slashing feat, a Khopesh has 20% chance to crit with a x3 multiplier. However, rapiers and scimitars would have a 30% chance to crit, which is huge if you're a twf. Against mobs that cannot suffer critical hits (and do note that their kind are relatively rare compared to most of the mobs you face in the game... with exception to the golems), it would make more sense to either use a two-handed weapon, or switch to longswords/battle-axes.

That being said, a burst weapon (especially an elemental burst weapon + Risia burst) is likely to do more damage in the long run when scimitars are used than when Khopesh's are used. This especially true if you have greater two weapon fighting which makes off-hand attacks 80% likely to occur.


So I ask, why do Paladins *NEED* to use/have Khopesh weapons (and lets' face it, I haven't been very impressed with most of the epic weapons out there; the best epic weapons appear to be the Two-handed weapons that paladins don't need to waste a feat for).

Cause math says so.

[Adrian99]

There are a few threads lying around that show the math, but I'm too lazy to find them for you. The conclusion is that the more buffed you are, the more the Khopesh is favored.

[t0r012]

So I ask, why do Paladins *NEED* to use/have Khopesh weapons

\

Like any other melee class asking the same question you don't "need" to, but kopeshes are so OP that you should really "want" to.

can you get a rapier drow or elf with scimmies reasonably close to a kopesh wielder? sure. but it costs AP that you have to invest in melee damage lines that Palys can't really afford.
here for since you need to give up tasty Pally stuff you lose out in the damage game that way.

so the basic answer still remains yes kopesh are just that good/OP/broken

[elraido]

My question is why didn't the devs, when they started the game, didn't make them more like pnp khopeshes. You get an advantage to trip with a x2 multiplier. They created the most powerful weapon in the game by doing what they did. Basically made the bastard sword obsolete when it costs the same. They did try to improve the bastard by giving it glancing blows, but that just isn't enough to over come the x2 to the x3 multiplier.

[Nyvn]

My question is why didn't the devs, when they started the game, didn't make them more like pnp khopeshes. You get an advantage to trip with a x2 multiplier. They created the most powerful weapon in the game by doing what they did. Basically made the bastard sword obsolete when it costs the same. They did try to improve the bastard by giving it glancing blows, but that just isn't enough to over come the x2 to the x3 multiplier.

The game was balanced for the level 10 cap at level 10 khopeshes are slightly ahead of other weapons, but not ridiculously so. It boils down to lack of foresight, I'm sure the Dev's didn't plan on custom greensteel originally.

[hermespan]

\

Like any other melee class asking the same question you don't "need" to, but kopeshes are so OP that you should really "want" to.

can you get a rapier drow or elf with scimmies reasonably close to a kopesh wielder? sure. but it costs AP that you have to invest in melee damage lines that Palys can't really afford.
here for since you need to give up tasty Pally stuff you lose out in the damage game that way.

so the basic answer still remains yes kopesh are just that good/OP/broken

Khopesh isn't OP when you consider that no class or race has proficiency without taking an extra feat.

You want to talk about overpowered?

TWF Banishing rapiers with IC: Pierce and a bloodstone for lols in Vale. On a str ranger you can waltz all over the entire map and cut through it like butter at level 12 (or is it level 13 for +1 banishers?). I've gotten obscene kill counts in vale quests. I had one guy rage quit a group over it because I was "stealing" his kills and he thought I was kill-sploiting. he was a TR, I wasn't, I outkilled him in a Coal Chamber run around 185 to 30 or so. I'd say roughly 80% of the time stuff is dead before I get to strike 3. Often as soon as I take my first swing.

You can't begin to touch that with TWF khopeshes. Indeed nothing can touch it in that set of quests. Situationally, there's usually something better than TWF khopesh. THF utterly smokes any TWF below level 11 or so, khopesh or not.

In epics and quests like dreaming dark series, triple acid earthgrab heavy picks, also smoke khopesh for total DPS and survivability in most situations, like killing trash with epic ward.

This is just based on my own experience. I'm sure others can point out other situations where Khopesh doesn't live up to it's reputation and something else is better. There are few situations where Khopesh is _really_ top dog. Min II khopeshes for beating on pit fiends is probably one of them. I do best beating portals with my +4 holy burst of pure good khopeshs. Khopeshs are best in situations where there isn't something better. I'm actually having a hard time thinking of more than 5 such situations ATM.

For vorpaling, at least on my build, it's better to get out the vorpal kamas, turn off power attack and go into wind stance for the attack speed increase (with no loss in STR!). One more example...

I am a khopesh user on my capped 18/1/1 ranger. I have MIN II's, am building LIT II's, have TAEG heavy picks, vorpal kamas, banishing rapiers, IC pierce and slashing, I know all about khopesh and right tool for the job. Know when I actually use Khopesh? Shroud portals, Harry, and Sully, finishing off the xzxzzy (or whatever) in HoX. That's *it*. I'd venture to say I use my TAEG picks and vorpal kamas about 95% of my play time doing end game stuff. Khopesh is good for mobs without lots of hitpoints or bosses that have DR and can't be banished or vorpalled. In end game, mobs for which using khopesh is best, don't exist much. You end up earthgrabbing them, soul trapping, or vorpaling the high HP stuff. I also use Khopesh in low level farming. Then again I could one shot most of those mobs with shocking burst daggers. That's more a function of laziness than khopesh actually being best. I usually do low level farming on my wizard anyway.

I may increase khopesh use a little when I get my LIT II's done, for when mobs save a lot against earthgrab AND have epic ward, or are immune to acid. I haven't seen that situation come up much.

Based on all of this, and the fact that you need to spend an extra feat to get it, I just don't buy the Khopesh is OP or broken argument. It's hogwash. That argument is broken. Simple DPS math covers one situation, where you are beating on a training dummy, then with the various degrees of fortification. When you factor in all of the available weapon properties, and start thinking about actual situations you encounter in game, the assumption that khopesh is always best or even remotely overpowered _really_ starts to break down.

Like most OP arguments, this one is put forward by people that don't really understand the game beyond what they see in someone's spreadsheet. Experience in actual game play buries it. Would I give up khopesh? Hell no. I have the feat because sometimes it IS the best weapon for the job. If it was OP it would _always_ be the best weapon.

To quote the counter girl at the bookie's in Snatch "I ain't sellin' it, it's a fact."

[Warinx]

Hell no. I have the feat because sometimes it IS the best weapon for the job. If it was OP it would _always_ be the best weapon.

so a 3-20x2 weapon wouldn't be OP cause it's not _ALWAYS_ the best weapon?

BTW not saying Khopesh is OP ;P

[Ziindarax]

Khopesh isn't OP when you consider that no class or race has proficiency without taking an extra feat.

You want to talk about overpowered?

TWF Banishing rapiers with IC: Pierce and a bloodstone for lols in Vale. On a str ranger you can waltz all over the entire map and cut through it like butter at level 12 (or is it level 13 for +1 banishers?). I've gotten obscene kill counts in vale quests. I had one guy rage quit a group over it because I was "stealing" his kills and he thought I was kill-sploiting. he was a TR, I wasn't, I outkilled him in a Coal Chamber run around 185 to 30 or so. I'd say roughly 80% of the time stuff is dead before I get to strike 3. Often as soon as I take my first swing.

You can't begin to touch that with TWF khopeshes. Indeed nothing can touch it in that set of quests. Situationally, there's usually something better than TWF khopesh. THF utterly smokes any TWF below level 11 or so, khopesh or not.

In epics and quests like dreaming dark series, triple acid earthgrab heavy picks, also smoke khopesh for total DPS and survivability in most situations, like killing trash with epic ward.

This is just based on my own experience. I'm sure others can point out other situations where Khopesh doesn't live up to it's reputation and something else is better. There are few situations where Khopesh is _really_ top dog. Min II khopeshes for beating on pit fiends is probably one of them. I do best beating portals with my +4 holy burst of pure good khopeshs. Khopeshs are best in situations where there isn't something better. I'm actually having a hard time thinking of more than 5 such situations ATM.

For vorpaling, at least on my build, it's better to get out the vorpal kamas, turn off power attack and go into wind stance for the attack speed increase (with no loss in STR!). One more example...

I am a khopesh user on my capped 18/1/1 ranger. I have MIN II's, am building LIT II's, have TAEG heavy picks, vorpal kamas, banishing rapiers, IC pierce and slashing, I know all about khopesh and right tool for the job. Know when I actually use Khopesh? Shroud portals, Harry, and Sully, finishing off the xzxzzy (or whatever) in HoX. That's *it*. I'd venture to say I use my TAEG picks and vorpal kamas about 95% of my play time doing end game stuff. Khopesh is good for mobs without lots of hitpoints or bosses that have DR and can't be banished or vorpalled. In end game, mobs for which using khopesh is best, don't exist much. You end up earthgrabbing them, soul trapping, or vorpaling the high HP stuff. I also use Khopesh in low level farming. Then again I could one shot most of those mobs with shocking burst daggers. That's more a function of laziness than khopesh actually being best. I usually do low level farming on my wizard anyway.

I may increase khopesh use a little when I get my LIT II's done, for when mobs save a lot against earthgrab AND have epic ward, or are immune to acid. I haven't seen that situation come up much.

Based on all of this, and the fact that you need to spend an extra feat to get it, I just don't buy the Khopesh is OP or broken argument. It's hogwash. That argument is broken. Simple DPS math covers one situation, where you are beating on a training dummy, then with the various degrees of fortification. When you factor in all of the available weapon properties, and start thinking about actual situations you encounter in game, the assumption that khopesh is always best or even remotely overpowered _really_ starts to break down.

Like most OP arguments, this one is put forward by people that don't really understand the game beyond what they see in someone's spreadsheet. Experience in actual game play buries it. Would I give up khopesh? Hell no. I have the feat because sometimes it IS the best weapon for the job. If it was OP it would _always_ be the best weapon.

To quote the counter girl at the bookie's in Snatch "I ain't sellin' it, it's a fact."

Thanks!

This post sums up exactly why I am skeptical toward even grabbing the khopesh feat.

Paladin abilities can increase the crit multiplier btw for those of you arguing against scimitars. If the paladin were to use exalted smite, that crit multiplier now rivals a khopesh with the 30% chance to crit. Exalted smite takes the scimitar/rapier's crit multiplier to x4, and when you're fighting against critable bosses (like Harry for example), spamming exalted smite in combination with Div sacrifice results in good DPS.. perhaps better than what Khopesh can offer because the weapons are critting more.

[Aaxeyu]

If it was OP it would _always_ be the best weapon.

What makes you say that?

[Adrian99]

...

TWF Banishing rapiers with IC: Pierce and a bloodstone for lols in Vale.

...

You can't begin to touch that with TWF khopeshes. Indeed nothing can touch it in that set of quests. Situationally, there's usually something better than TWF khopesh. THF utterly smokes any TWF below level 11 or so, khopesh or not.

I don't disagree with you, but I think it's unfair to use this as an example of why khopesh isn't the best overall TWF weapon. Most of your response is about the advantage of situational weapons, and yes the advantage is huge, but that's orthogonal to the issue of the best overall TWF weapon. How could any weapon compete situationally with dual smiting scimitars or banishing rapiers?

[transtemporal]

You want to talk about overpowered?

TWF Banishing rapiers with IC: Pierce and a bloodstone for lols in Vale.

Pfft. My +1 flaming burst icy burst khopesh ml2 rr wf is overpowered in waterworks too. Whats your point?

[k1ngp1n]

It really, really depends. Pally's get less out of a khopesh than just about any other major melee build (as much of their damage is not passed through the multiplier - the only pally damage add that does is divine might.) In addition, divine sacrifice adds 1 to a multiplier, favoring a scimitar or rapier, and exalted smite damage potential is identical across khopesh/scimitar/rapier, unless you have seeker - in which case, the scimitar and rapiers are actually ever so slightly better at your smites.

I've run both a scimitar and a khopesh pally to 20. Their damage was (before I TR'd the khop user) nearly identical - kill times while testing varied by something like 3 or 4%. But I play pallies like a click fest - divine sacrifice is pretty much never off timer - players who don't drive their pallies like crazy will get a bit more percentage wise out of a khopesh.

The scimitar pally is, however, far more effective in actually questing since I was able to slot extend.

My personal build design now is that my pallies use the following feats:
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC:x, Power Attack, Toughness, Extend. I really like the synergy of piercing over slashing and using rapiers, and earthgrab heavy picks in epic. A human can make the choice of Maximize for self healing or Khopesh for the bonus feat. (Well, you can't take Maximize on the bonus, but you know.) Just my opinion, though - take it for what you will.

[painindaguild]

There are a few threads lying around that show the math, but I'm too lazy to find them for you. The conclusion is that the more buffed you are, the more the Khopesh is favored.

completely wrong.
the more damage u do on a base hit the more scimitar gets boosted. the problem is, as soon as scimitar gets actually "better", ur in the zone of base damage no character can physically hit yet.
when level cap rises and base damage gets boosted scimitars will become the new overpowered weapon.
until that time khopesh all the way. dwarven axe is also decent and look awesome.

[k1ngp1n]

completely wrong.
the more damage u do on a base hit the more scimitar gets boosted. the problem is, as soon as scimitar gets actually "better", ur in the zone of base damage no character can physically hit yet.
when level cap rises and base damage gets boosted scimitars will become the new overpowered weapon.
until that time khopesh all the way. dwarven axe is also decent and look awesome.

No.

[kernal42]

completely wrong.
the more damage u do on a base hit the more scimitar gets boosted. the problem is, as soon as scimitar gets actually "better", ur in the zone of base damage no character can physically hit yet.
when level cap rises and base damage gets boosted scimitars will become the new overpowered weapon.
until that time khopesh all the way. dwarven axe is also decent and look awesome.

Incorrect.

[Warinx]

Calculating how much critical hits add to your damage.

lets say example weapon does 1 damage per hit. Then add together the total damage if 1-20 was rolled

Fists/Club 19+1 (20x2) =20
Imp Crit fists 19+2 (19-20x2) =21
Great Axe/Sword 19+2=21
Scimitar/Pick 19+3=22
IC Great Axe 19+4=23
Kopesh 19+4=23
IC Pick 19+6=25
IC Kopesh 19+8=27

Then if you want it in % divide that number by 19 and you get what % of your damage is added from criticals.

Quick formula (((20-CritMinimum)xCritMultiplier)+19) / 19 = crit%damage

IC Axe/Sword 23/19 = 1,210 so 21% of your damage comes from critical hits 210 (20% after confirm roll)
IC Heavy Pick 25/19 = 1,316 so 32% of your damage comes from critical hits (30% after confirm roll)
IC Kopesh 27/19 = 1,421 so 42% of your damage comes from critical hits (40% after confirm roll)

So for 2her builds IC only adds 10% damage but for Khopesh it adds 20% damage.

If you're thinking about a specific fight like 50% fortification Boss etc you can reduce the % by half or 1/4 or whatever you need.

So lets say a pick does 1 more damage than a kopesh how much damage do you need before the khopesh catches up to the pick?

Diffrence in %damage is 1,399/1,300= 1,076 so you need 100%/7,6% 13.16 base damage for the kopesh to catch up.

[Aaxeyu]

completely wrong.
the more damage u do on a base hit the more scimitar gets boosted. the problem is, as soon as scimitar gets actually "better", ur in the zone of base damage no character can physically hit yet.
when level cap rises and base damage gets boosted scimitars will become the new overpowered weapon.
until that time khopesh all the way. dwarven axe is also decent and look awesome.

Fail.

[Maldavenous]

completely wrong.
the more damage u do on a base hit the more scimitar gets boosted. the problem is, as soon as scimitar gets actually "better", ur in the zone of base damage no character can physically hit yet.
when level cap rises and base damage gets boosted scimitars will become the new overpowered weapon.
until that time khopesh all the way. dwarven axe is also decent and look awesome.

The higher the critical multiplier on a weapon the more value there is to any buff that increases damage.

Seeing that is the case Khopesh will become even better when you're buffed.

[Junts]

completely wrong.
the more damage u do on a base hit the more scimitar gets boosted. the problem is, as soon as scimitar gets actually "better", ur in the zone of base damage no character can physically hit yet.
when level cap rises and base damage gets boosted scimitars will become the new overpowered weapon.
until that time khopesh all the way. dwarven axe is also decent and look awesome.

This is incorrect; Khopeshes multiply base damage increases by more overall than any other weapon (except the epic sword of shadow and epic xuum) due to their critical profile.

While specific paladin abilities gain slightly more benefit from rapiers or scimitars than they do from khopeshes, the difference is minute and it isn't enough to make up the raw advantage the Khopesh has over weapons on regular attacks. While the Khopesh may be the best weapon for a fighter or barbarian by 7-9%, its 'only' the best weapon for a paladin by 5-6%. However, it's still the best, and 5% is a ton on DDO.

There's pretty much always a feat you can afford to drop for it. About the only characters who really can't pull it off are drow or elven paladins, who already have the -2 con working against them as well and in general aren't nearly as strong as human builds (and the AP for racial rapier/scimitar enhancements is extremely hard to afford). Generally, people considering an elf or drow paladin build would be better off using a human with khopesh instead.

If you already rolled an elf or drow, you might be stuck with inferior weaponry, and if you can afford the AP you can close that gap a little more with racials, especially racial to-hit benefits in epic (on the other hand, by using a x2 crit weapon in epic, you pretty much completely nerf yourself into irrelevance, so the to-hit issue in epic isn't actually an advantage: if you're not a khopesh user, you better be using heavy picks in epic or its time to reroll).