Khopesh Vs. Scimitars/rapiers

[Ziindarax]

LIES!

Actually this is not true because bursting weapons do more damage with higher multiplier weapons. Can't remember exactly right now but it's something like 2D8 for an x2 multiplier and 3D8 for a x3 multiplier. That's a pretty big difference and though the Khopesh crits SOMEWHAT less often, it will burst for much more.

True, when Khopesh hits does perform a critical hit it does more damage than either a rapier or a scimitar as far as elemental bursts are concerned. However, the point I am trying to contend is that the Scimitars and Rapiers are more likely to land a critical hit with each attack than a Khopesh (10% more likely when Improved Critical: Slashing is taken), and it is from this that I am arguing their ability to do more damage than a Khopesh.

However, if one were to make an argument about which weapon would be best in terms of element burst, then it would actually be the Heavy Pick [especially a Greensteel Heavy Pick in terms of raw damage. Regardless of having Improved crit (piercing), the heavy pick has the same chance to land a critical hit as a battle/great axe. To use the logic of your post against the argument of your post, though the Heavy Pick crits SOMEWHAT less often, it will burst for much more, and the best part is, the Paladin wouldn't even need to spend a feat slot to get heavy pick proficiency. :P

[AylinIsAwesome]

True, when Khopesh hits does perform a critical hit it does more damage than either a rapier or a scimitar as far as elemental bursts are concerned. However, the point I am trying to contend is that the Scimitars and Rapiers are more likely to land a critical hit with each attack than a Khopesh (10% more likely when Improved Critical: Slashing is taken), and it is from this that I am arguing their ability to do more damage than a Khopesh.

I just mathematically showed this to not be true. It's on the previous page. Click here

[Ziindarax]

I just mathematically showed this to not be true. It's on the previous page. Click here

I saw your post, but I was addressing another person's post.

Ahh, that's true.

I was specifically commenting on elemental bursts since that was the example given by the OP. I hadn't checked alignment bursts.


I'll compare a Holy Rapier to a Holy Khopesh then. 34 STR isn't that hard to reach, so I'll use that. Divine Might 4 and a Bloodstone as well. Leaving out KotC effects since not every Paladin is KotC, not every mob is an EO, and the damage from the PrE would cancel out when comparing them anyway.

Holy Sword (Rapier):
.95 * 3.5 * 2 + .65 * (3.5 + 5 + 12 + 3 + 8 + 5) + .3 * 2 * (3.5 + 5 + 12 + 8 + 3 + 5 + 6) + .3 * 3.5 * 3
6.65 + 23.725 + 25.5 + 3.15
59.025

Holy Sword (Khopesh):
.95 * 3.5 * 2 + .75 * (4.5 + 5 + 12 + 3 + 8 + 5) + .2 * 3 * (4.5 + 5 + 12 + 8 + 3 + 5 + 6) + .2 * 3.5 * 4
6.65 + 28.125 + 26.1 + 2.8
63.675


So the only thing that Rapier does better than Khopesh is the alignment burst, and everything else Khopesh either ties or beats Rapier.

The math may say indicate that the Khopesh is mightier than the rapier/scimitar, but situations/circumstances can prove otherwise; it all boils down to chance and how the dice rolls.

Also, you did not address the other half of my post which touched on heavy picks (granted, that's not what this subject is about, but at the very core of my thread, I am questioning the point of getting khopesh proficiency when Paladins [especially dwarven paladins] receive proficiencies in weapons that can perform as well as, if not better than, the khopesh). The feat that isn't used on Khopesh proficiency could be applied to another feat (such as Die hard, or more importantly Force of Personality, which is especially important since some [read most] Paladin DPS builds encourage Dump statting wisdom).


To answer an earlier question:

No, I am not impressed by Epic Chaosblades.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I saw your post, but I was addressing another person's post.



The math may say indicate that the Khopesh is mightier than the rapier/scimitar, but situations/circumstances can prove otherwise; it all boils down to chance and how the dice rolls.

The Law of Large Numbers says otherwise. On average, the Khopesh will out-DPS the Rapier. Saying that it's possible for the Khopesh-user to roll 20 1s in a row and therefore the Rapier-user will out-DPS the Khopesh-user during that period doesn't mean anything since all of those situations are accounted for, including the Rapier-user rolling 20 1s in a row, and so on.

Also, you did not address the other half of my post which touched on heavy picks (granted, that's not what this subject is about, but at the very core of my thread, I am questioning the point of getting khopesh proficiency when Paladins [especially dwarven paladins] receive proficiencies in weapons that can perform as well as, if not better than, the khopesh).

Heavy Picks are bad for Paladins, as are Dwarven Axes.

D-Axes being worse should be obvious, as they are only 19-20 3x, while a Khopesh is 17-20 3x. The minor increase of damage dice for D-Axe doesn't make up for the larger crit range of a Khopesh.

Heavy Pics are worse because, in addition to being a crit power 6 weapon (Khopesh is 8), Heavy Picks have lower base damage than Khopeshes. The exception is auto-crit situations.

For comparison:

Holy Sword (Heavy Pick):
.95 * 3.5 * 2 + .85 * (3.5 + 5 + 12 + 3 + 8 + 5) + .1 * 4 * (3.5 + 5 + 12 + 3 + 8 + 5 + 6) + .1 * 3.5 * 5
6.65 + 31.025 + 17 + 1.75
56.425

Honestly, Heavy Picks are behind rapiers.

The feat that isn't used on Khopesh proficiency could be applied to another feat (such as Die hard, or more importantly Force of Personality, which is especially important since some [read most] Paladin DPS builds encourage Dump statting wisdom).

Diehard and Force of Personality are both worthless for a Paladin.

Diehard only works when you have -9 to 0 hitpoints. It's useless for a Warforged (since they don't bleed), and you can wear a Mantle of the Worldshaper to get a hitpoint back on a fleshie, which stops you from bleeding.

As for Force of Personality, Paladins already get CHA to saves. FoP will just put your Will Save (which is the least important save) into the level of "only fail on a 1", which you probably already are anyway. On top of that, you can be immune to so many things that have Will saves. Honestly, FoP is a waste on a Paladin.

To answer an earlier question:

No, I am not impressed by Epic Chaosblades.

You should be. It can bypass raid boss DR in the hands of a Paladin, and deals more damage than a Mineral 2 (which in turn deals more damage than a Holy Sword).

[Junts]

I saw your post, but I was addressing another person's post.



The math may say indicate that the Khopesh is mightier than the rapier/scimitar, but situations/circumstances can prove otherwise; it all boils down to chance and how the dice rolls.

Also, you did not address the other half of my post which touched on heavy picks (granted, that's not what this subject is about, but at the very core of my thread, I am questioning the point of getting khopesh proficiency when Paladins [especially dwarven paladins] receive proficiencies in weapons that can perform as well as, if not better than, the khopesh). The feat that isn't used on Khopesh proficiency could be applied to another feat (such as Die hard, or more importantly Force of Personality, which is especially important since some [read most] Paladin DPS builds encourage Dump statting wisdom).


To answer an earlier question:

No, I am not impressed by Epic Chaosblades.

Did you just suggest force of personality and/or die hard as better feats than Khopesh?

I believe I will no longer continue to participate in this conversation, as you've clearly never played Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited.

[k1ngp1n]

back-handed compliment

That was in no way meant to be an insult. These 'Khopesh vs....' threads always devolve into the same debates over and over, and people keep crunching the same numbers. Weapon performance is really well known: there are countless threads on the topic. The capabilities of the heavy pick are also exceptionally well known - and their heavy usage in epic is not a fluke.

Sorry if it came across as condescending - these threads are just getting a little old, and responding the same way each time is becoming rather passe.

such as Die hard, or more importantly Force of Personality

but situations/circumstances can prove otherwise

Actually, unfortunately, they really can't.

[Krag]

I often take Khopesh at level 1 or 2; especially on a paladin, most of your feats from level 6 and up are afflicted with assorted BAB requirements and/or char level requirements for metamagics. Your metamagics + itwf/imp crit/gtwf all have to come from level 6 or later. Taking Khopesh at 1 or 3 is consequently a pretty logical decision (on twf builds, I'd lean towards 3: toughness+twf, then khopesh, then itwf, imp crit, gtwf, and then you have PA and a metamagic slot near the end).

Frankly, Khopesh is a better feat from levels 1-6 than power attack is.

From 1-6 I am using icy burst keen falchion, Carnifex which goes good with PA. SoS rocks 10-11. I don't see any reason to use twf style until level 12 when you can wield Greensteel and have at least itwf.

[Kourier]

The point was that it's hard to fit in khopesh proficiency late on a paladin build because you can only cast after level 4 (level 6 feats and beyond) and you need to take the other parts of your fighting chain (THF or TWF) from level 6 and beyond. IC can only be taken at 9 or beyond, etc.

[Junts]

From 1-6 I am using icy burst keen falchion, Carnifex which goes good with PA. SoS rocks 10-11. I don't see any reason to use twf style until level 12 when you can wield Greensteel and have at least itwf.

In many cases, stuff at level 1-6 will die in one hit even from a 1handed weapon (remember, you have a terrible str bonus, and you probably aren't using PA).

From levels 1-5ish I typically go sword and board with some kind of nice risia'd something. Never getting hit is worth the one mob in 8 or 9 who actually has to be hit twice. Depending on your build and gear quality, once you get barkskin and shield of faith you may or may not be able to continue to be unhittable while 2handing. TWF builds are more likely to be able to, since they'll fill out a mithral fp dex-wise at that level.

My personal favorites are the +1 holy, icy burst, pure good rapier (rr human, 4) and the +3 holy/frost/pure good greataxe (rr human, 8).

To be honest, I don't actually find that I use carnifex much at all if you've got high-end twink weaponry. By the time its relevant, you could be twinking with sos if you have one. Carnifex isn't any good if a flagged weapon will kill things in a single non-crit hit (which a good twink weapon will do until about shadow crypt/von3).

In any case, taking Khopesh at low level has more to do with fitting in feats than anything else. Being one of the few feats you can take at level 1 or 3, it often makes sense to take it there even if you won't wield a Khopesh for 10 levels.

[Ziindarax]

The Law of Large Numbers says otherwise. On average, the Khopesh will out-DPS the Rapier. Saying that it's possible for the Khopesh-user to roll 20 1s in a row and therefore the Rapier-user will out-DPS the Khopesh-user during that period doesn't mean anything since all of those situations are accounted for, including the Rapier-user rolling 20 1s in a row, and so on.



Heavy Picks are bad for Paladins, as are Dwarven Axes.

D-Axes being worse should be obvious, as they are only 19-20 3x, while a Khopesh is 17-20 3x. The minor increase of damage dice for D-Axe doesn't make up for the larger crit range of a Khopesh.

Heavy Pics are worse because, in addition to being a crit power 6 weapon (Khopesh is 8), Heavy Picks have lower base damage than Khopeshes. The exception is auto-crit situations.

For comparison:

Holy Sword (Heavy Pick):
.95 * 3.5 * 2 + .85 * (3.5 + 5 + 12 + 3 + 8 + 5) + .1 * 4 * (3.5 + 5 + 12 + 3 + 8 + 5 + 6) + .1 * 3.5 * 5
6.65 + 31.025 + 17 + 1.75
56.425

Honestly, Heavy Picks are behind rapiers.



Diehard and Force of Personality are both worthless for a Paladin.

Diehard only works when you have -9 to 0 hitpoints. It's useless for a Warforged (since they don't bleed), and you can wear a Mantle of the Worldshaper to get a hitpoint back on a fleshie, which stops you from bleeding.

As for Force of Personality, Paladins already get CHA to saves. FoP will just put your Will Save (which is the least important save) into the level of "only fail on a 1", which you probably already are anyway. On top of that, you can be immune to so many things that have Will saves. Honestly, FoP is a waste on a Paladin.



You should be. It can bypass raid boss DR in the hands of a Paladin, and deals more damage than a Mineral 2 (which in turn deals more damage than a Holy Sword).

They may be able to bypass raid boss DR, but that doesn't mean the weapon will always be viable. At best, they're highly situational (the Marilith Raid Boss is a demon, not a devil, so Chaos-aligned weapons are largely useless against her. Velah is chaotic evil so chaos is also useless against her), and mostly useful for clearing trash mobs in quests.

And looking at your earlier math, the Khopesh is only better than the Rapier/scimitar by 4 points of damage on average. In my honest opinion, it wouldn't make sense of a paladin to waste a feat slot on a weapon that is only marginally better than weapons that you don't need an extra feat for (warhammers inflict the same damage as khopesh and have the same multiplier as a khopesh, and they can be dual-wielded). Thus, it all boils down to preference.

Still, +1 one for the sound arguments.

[AylinIsAwesome]

They may be able to bypass raid boss DR, but that doesn't mean the weapon will always be viable. At best, they're highly situational (the Marilith Raid Boss is a demon, not a devil, so Chaos-aligned weapons are largely useless against her. Velah is chaotic evil so chaos is also useless against her), and mostly useful for clearing trash mobs in quests.

Those are the only two raid bosses that aren't lawful (besides the Abbott, but he doesn't have enough hitpoints to matter).

The mobs in Epic Chronoscope, ToD, VoD, Shroud, and almost all of Shavarath are Lawful.

And looking at your earlier math, the Khopesh is only better than the Rapier/scimitar by 4 points of damage on average. In my honest opinion, it wouldn't make sense of a paladin to waste a feat slot on a weapon that is only marginally better than weapons that you don't need an extra feat for (warhammers inflict the same damage as khopesh and have the same multiplier as a khopesh, and they can be dual-wielded). Thus, it all boils down to preference.

That's 4 points of damage per swing. Take that over 20 swings and the Khopesh beats the Rapier by 80 damage. The difference really adds up over time. Also...what other feat would be worth the slot? There's no other feat that would reliably add to your DPS, so its only "wasted" if you don't take Khopesh.

The Warhammer only crits on 19-20 if you have Improved Critical: Bludgeon. It's not even worth being compared to a Khopesh. Use one against the Abbott, but that's it.

[kernal42]

True, when Khopesh hits does perform a critical hit it does more damage than either a rapier or a scimitar as far as elemental bursts are concerned. However, the point I am trying to contend is that the Scimitars and Rapiers are more likely to land a critical hit with each attack than a Khopesh (10% more likely when Improved Critical: Slashing is taken), and it is from this that I am arguing their ability to do more damage than a Khopesh.

However, if one were to make an argument about which weapon would be best in terms of element burst, then it would actually be the Heavy Pick [especially a Greensteel Heavy Pick in terms of raw damage. Regardless of having Improved crit (piercing), the heavy pick has the same chance to land a critical hit as a battle/great axe. To use the logic of your post against the argument of your post, though the Heavy Pick crits SOMEWHAT less often, it will burst for much more, and the best part is, the Paladin wouldn't even need to spend a feat slot to get heavy pick proficiency. :P

Hit-by-Hit is entirely irrelevant. The only concern in terms of dps is average damage. At end-game, base weapon damage is basically irrelevant, so critical range and multiplier are the most significant parts of the weapon. Khopesh beats every other weapon in that respect, so it wins.

-Kernal

[Krag]

You should be. It can bypass raid boss DR in the hands of a Paladin, and deals more damage than a Mineral 2 (which in turn deals more damage than a Holy Sword).

I am not impressed either.

Chaosblade ONLY beats DR (you get to choose between devils and demons) in hands of a pure paladin and even then it barely beats Min II which is a lot easier to get is a lot cheaper and has ML12.

Vorpal is very useful when farming exp in Gianthold, Vale, IQ, RR and Amrath... Wait, you don't farm exp at level 20. All raid bosses and all epic trash is immune to vorpal. Much like HotD 3 ability it looks good on paper but comes too late to be useful.

And at last but not at least Chaosblade requires 30 UMD which is not easy to get without rogue splash and/or swapping gear.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I am not impressed either.

Chaosblade ONLY beats DR (you get to choose between devils and demons) in hands of a pure paladin and even then it barely beats Min II which is a lot easier to get is a lot cheaper and has ML12.

Why would you make a Min 2 on a Paladin in the first place? Lit 2 will do more against more mobs, and Holy Sword works for bosses almost as well as a Min 2 would.

Vorpal is very useful when farming exp in Gianthold, Vale, IQ, RR and Amrath... Wait, you don't farm exp at level 20. All raid bosses and all epic trash is immune to vorpal. Much like HotD 3 ability it looks good on paper but comes too late to be useful.

The Vorpal isn't worth it in Epic, sure.

But Vorpal isn't the only thing on the weapon.

And at last but not at least Chaosblade requires 30 UMD which is not easy to get without rogue splash and/or swapping gear.

11 Ranks
4 Greater Heroism
9 CHA Mod
3 Vile Blasphemy
5 Shroud Item
=32

That's only swapping 1 item (the gloves), which isn't that bad. Not even that if your Shroud items give you +6 CHA skills.

[Krag]

Why would you make a Min 2 on a Paladin in the first place? Lit 2 will do more against more mobs, and Holy Sword works for bosses almost as well as a Min 2 would.

Why would I roll Paladin in the first place? Because PL Paladin is awesome. Why would I make a Min 2 on a Paladin? I wouldn't but I have a Min 2 from previous lives.

But Vorpal isn't the only thing on the weapon.

Of course there is more than just vorpal but it makes me sad that weapon properties have no synergy.

[Junts]

I am not impressed either.

Chaosblade ONLY beats DR (you get to choose between devils and demons) in hands of a pure paladin and even then it barely beats Min II which is a lot easier to get is a lot cheaper and has ML12.

Vorpal is very useful when farming exp in Gianthold, Vale, IQ, RR and Amrath... Wait, you don't farm exp at level 20. All raid bosses and all epic trash is immune to vorpal. Much like HotD 3 ability it looks good on paper but comes too late to be useful.

And at last but not at least Chaosblade requires 30 UMD which is not easy to get without rogue splash and/or swapping gear.

It doesn't 'barely' beat a mineral2: its closer to a lightning2 damage wise than a mineral, and it can bypass silver+good. It makes up roughly 60% of the damage gap between mineral and lightning on trashmobs, and can apply that extra damage to bosses.

Dual epic chaosblade is the best boss-beating weapon arrangement in the game (better than pure paladin epic sos) and additionally is the best autocrit whacking khopesh set (the higher base damage and enhancement are far better in autocrit situations than lightning strike's static damage).

epic chaosblades are incredibly, incredibly good.

[Junts]

Those are the only two raid bosses that aren't lawful (besides the Abbott, but he doesn't have enough hitpoints to matter).

The mobs in Epic Chronoscope, ToD, VoD, Shroud, and almost all of Shavarath are Lawful.



That's 4 points of damage per swing. Take that over 20 swings and the Khopesh beats the Rapier by 80 damage. The difference really adds up over time. Also...what other feat would be worth the slot? There's no other feat that would reliably add to your DPS, so its only "wasted" if you don't take Khopesh.

The Warhammer only crits on 19-20 if you have Improved Critical: Bludgeon. It's not even worth being compared to a Khopesh. Use one against the Abbott, but that's it.

also lawful:

Efreeti
Some undead
Red fens Sahuagin
Most warforged
Beholders
Some drow

In fact, epic chaosblade renders full damage on well more than half of mobs, including epic mobs in content you're likely to run on epic (efreeti and many other trash in eadq, all of the red fens, nearly all of epic vons except von1, etc). The vorpal basically reads 'ps: extra good if you do elite amrath for some reason', but you could remove it from the weapon and it'd still be incredibly powerful. Vampirism is also significantly better than lesser vampirism and, especially in concert with healing amplification, can return considerably useful amounts of HP.

Incidently, you'd make a min2 on a paladin if you needed a tier 3 shroud benefit for some reason. Further, you might have been another class at some point, you may want more regular access to metal dr bypassing, or you may routinely want to bypass a metal not covered by holy sword (like, say, dr adamantine from stoneskin/flesh to stone).

I really, really want to make ap air of mineral2 khopeshes on my twf paladin; so tired of making holy swords, and so tired of losing 15 damage on every fts'd mob.

[sephiroth1084]

I went with scimitars on my paladin tank because I couldn't find a way to include the khopesh feat. Having now played up to cap and into epics, I have to say that the scimitar feels like it can't be too far behind the khopesh, as my DPS against non-auto-crit mobs is pretty solid, I get tons of crit smites and crit sacrifices and am able to hold aggro well enough.

In epics, however, where the primary strategy is to get trash into auto-crit status as fast as possible and then beat them down, scimitars are rather pitiful. I've ended up starting to make a pair of greensteel picks for those situations, which are better than khopeshes once the creature is in auto-crit status, but worse when trying to get it there. Now I'm basically forced to have an extra weapon set (and extra expensive weapon set) for certain situations in which the khopesh would like be slightly better or even when considering the entirety of the situation.

[AltheaSteelrain]

I went with scimitars on my paladin tank because I couldn't find a way to include the khopesh feat. Having now played up to cap and into epics, I have to say that the scimitar feels like it can't be too far behind the khopesh, as my DPS against non-auto-crit mobs is pretty solid, I get tons of crit smites and crit sacrifices and am able to hold aggro well enough.

In epics, however, where the primary strategy is to get trash into auto-crit status as fast as possible and then beat them down, scimitars are rather pitiful. I've ended up starting to make a pair of greensteel picks for those situations, which are better than khopeshes once the creature is in auto-crit status, but worse when trying to get it there. Now I'm basically forced to have an extra weapon set (and extra expensive weapon set) for certain situations in which the khopesh would like be slightly better or even when considering the entirety of the situation.

This.

But then again, its just the question of tolerance and patience switching back and forth between scimitars and heavy picks on epics that would make me feel at times that I'm better off "being lazy" and switch to a khopesh for efficiency.

Then again, I think its just a matter of quality of life versus click galore. Sometimes I feel the "being lazy" part is quality of life and I am just denying myself this realization.

My 2 cents.

[lord_of_rage]

I saw your post, but I was addressing another person's post.



The math may say indicate that the Khopesh is mightier than the rapier/scimitar, but situations/circumstances can prove otherwise; it all boils down to chance and how the dice rolls.

Also, you did not address the other half of my post which touched on heavy picks (granted, that's not what this subject is about, but at the very core of my thread, I am questioning the point of getting khopesh proficiency when Paladins [especially dwarven paladins] receive proficiencies in weapons that can perform as well as, if not better than, the khopesh). The feat that isn't used on Khopesh proficiency could be applied to another feat (such as Die hard, or more importantly Force of Personality, which is especially important since some [read most] Paladin DPS builds encourage Dump statting wisdom).


To answer an earlier question:

No, I am not impressed by Epic Chaosblades.

Im not impressed with how much you think you know about the paladin class. Nor as it seems are the other experienced paladin players that have responded. The fact that you bring up die hard and fop as better than kopesh simply proves my point. You then say warhammers are as good as a kopesh when they dont have the crit range. Please learn the ins and outs first.