we need decrafting in shroud..

[krud]

There's plenty of accurate resources out there to make sure this doesn't happen. You screwed up. Deal with it.

there's also enough innacurate crafting planners out there. What kind of game makes it mandatory to visit 3rd party websites in order to complete a task properly? Third party sites that don't always get it right. Plenty of mistakes have been made by people using these supposedly "accurate resources". It has nothing to do with reading comprehension. If you are going to take that approach, then there should at a minimum be an in game method to acquire the proper recipes. Though with ddo's track record of handing out "clear" instructions I can see why they shy away from doing this.

for the record I haven't made any mistakes with crafting (yet), only because I waited so long to begin crafting, I let everyone else stumble upon the potential problems first..

[MrkGrismer]

Overpowered? How many epic completions do you have?

Walk into one on a level 20 once and bluff pull a level 30+ epic trash mob and beat it down. It will have ~12-15k hp, and hit you on a 2, and be immune to 75% of the effects that can be used by players. Now tell me that greensteel is overpowered.

Greensteel is the standard, and many end game quests and raids are created on the assumption that players have it.

I find this unfortunate but true. Unfortunate because my lone Lvl 20 has not even finished a single green steel blank yet, much less begun doing the endless shroud grind to upgrade it, followed by more grind to get the second kopesh done, followed by more grind to get the accessory done. And all this from a 17th level quest. To me there is something wrong when players are forced to do the same 17th level quest over and over and over and over and over and over in order to get something that is 'the standard'.

I am all for green steel deconstruction but I will probably never use it because if I ever finish a green steel item it is going to be 'perfect' and I will have done all I can do with the character without the green steel so many times that I will probably wonder why I ground out the green steel just to be able to grind out some epic items.

I am having more fun leveling my bard right now.

[Combat_Wombat]

How can you not directly compare GS deconstruction to trading in a named raid item for another raid item? You made a choice and you have to live with it whether its pulling a named item from a chest or 20th or crafting a GS item/weapon. In all raids except shroud named items are dropped and many players need 20 runs to finally get the one they want just like it can take 20 shroud runs to get enough to make a GS item. They are perfectly equivalent in EVERY SINGLE WAY except on one you are looking for a specific item and the other it lets you pretend you are making the item. In neither case should it ever be ok to just trade it in because you've decided it was a bad decision.

If there are no consequences there is no challenge

[krud]

How can you not directly compare GS deconstruction to trading in a named raid item for another raid item? You made a choice and you have to live with it whether its pulling a named item from a chest or 20th or crafting a GS item/weapon. In all raids except shroud named items are dropped and many players need 20 runs to finally get the one they want just like it can take 20 shroud runs to get enough to make a GS item. They are perfectly equivalent in EVERY SINGLE WAY except on one you are looking for a specific item and the other it lets you pretend you are making the item. In neither case should it ever be ok to just trade it in because you've decided it was a bad decision.

If there are no consequences there is no challenge

Except, when you make the choice for an item it is painfully obvious what that choice is. The item properties are all there in plain view on your screen. Not so with crafting. It's all up to the accuracy of the particular 3rd party planner you are using, since there are no such instructions to be found in the game. "Tough s**t" is not really a good option to address mistakes.

[Chai]

How can you not directly compare GS deconstruction to trading in a named raid item for another raid item? You made a choice and you have to live with it whether its pulling a named item from a chest or 20th or crafting a GS item/weapon. In all raids except shroud named items are dropped and many players need 20 runs to finally get the one they want just like it can take 20 shroud runs to get enough to make a GS item. They are perfectly equivalent in EVERY SINGLE WAY except on one you are looking for a specific item and the other it lets you pretend you are making the item. In neither case should it ever be ok to just trade it in because you've decided it was a bad decision.

If there are no consequences there is no challenge

In a normal crafting system, you know exactly what you are making.

How many people made that choice blindly, because DDO provided no resource on crafting, and made some garbage item before the crafting planners were created by third party users?

Learning to craft by trial and error is bunk. Telling people to just live with it fails.

[Missing_Minds]

there's also enough innacurate crafting planners out there. What kind of game makes it mandatory to visit 3rd party websites in order to complete a task properly? Third party sites that don't always get it right. Plenty of mistakes have been made by people using these supposedly "accurate resources". It has nothing to do with reading comprehension. If you are going to take that approach, then there should at a minimum be an in game method to acquire the proper recipes. Though with ddo's track record of handing out "clear" instructions I can see why they shy away from doing this.

for the record I haven't made any mistakes with crafting (yet), only because I waited so long to begin crafting, I let everyone else stumble upon the potential problems first..

For the record, no one forces the player to use 3rd party tools. That is the choice of the player, figure it out for themself, or trust in someone else's work.
It is also the choice of that player to check or NOT to check the results against another tool or even ask other people for verifcation.

The issues is on the player's shoulders, not Turbines.

To those of you complaining how you were one of the firsts, well I thank you IF and only IF your data helped other people. But that is all you are getting. You have had how much time to make/get more? That is YOUR choice. I'm not saying it is fun to run it over and over, just that it is your choice to do so or not to do so.

How do you keep players salivating in this game? Given the only mechanic really is questing, you have to make newer and different gear/weapons. The end result here is the same as any other game. Older gear becomes obsolete. It does NOT matter if it comes from a raid or not, nor how much time you took. Obsolescence is a fact of games let alone life for the most part.

You run Titian 20 odd times to get those UMD gloves or the ring. Oh look.. dragon touch has dodge now. You can make better UMD on a greensteel. What happened to complaints about all the time you spent to get those items? You don't see any. Why? "I didn't craft it." Raid loot is raid loot. Just because you had a more active hand into what you got vs. praying for a pull from a chest does not change what it really is.

Deconstuction would be an easy button depending on how it would be implemented. It could also be a ca$h cow for Turbine. My opinion is that there is zero need for this in game. Wanted? Sure, but it is not needed.

In conclusion, mine is not the opinion that matters. The lead developers and program leads are the opinions whom deconstruction wanters must persuade. I wish you the honest best of luck in that, but don't hold your breath. (even if you are a WF.)

[Thrudh]

there's also enough innacurate crafting planners out there. What kind of game makes it mandatory to visit 3rd party websites in order to complete a task properly? Third party sites that don't always get it right. Plenty of mistakes have been made by people using these supposedly "accurate resources". It has nothing to do with reading comprehension. If you are going to take that approach, then there should at a minimum be an in game method to acquire the proper recipes. Though with ddo's track record of handing out "clear" instructions I can see why they shy away from doing this.

This.

[Dirac]

There isn't much more to be said, but I make it a point to post agreement in every thread of a really good idea, even one posted over and over again. To emphasize a couple points:

1. Turbine can make a lot of money from Greensteel deconstruction if they do it right (use Turbine points, must get larges back).
2. There is evidence if we keep asking for something, they will come through for us (VoN/DQ flagging, two weapon slots, elite quest opening).

[Zzevel]

For the record, no one forces the player to use 3rd party tools. That is the choice of the player, figure it out for themself, or trust in someone else's work. It is also the choice of that player to check or NOT to check the results against another tool or even ask other people for verifcation......

This is a perfect example of what II was talking about, you know they used a planner themselves and have never figured anything out by themselves but the ego gets in the way of their uberness and lack of social skills... Blaming the player for use of resources? Really? Take a step outside, breath some real air, live your life, not ours.

[Combat_Wombat]

In a normal crafting system, you know exactly what you are making.

How many people made that choice blindly, because DDO provided no resource on crafting, and made some garbage item before the crafting planners were created by third party users?

Learning to craft by trial and error is bunk. Telling people to just live with it fails.

Thats the worst argument of all! You knew **** well what you were getting into no one held a gun to your head and made you craft without knowing the results.

And people that complain about making mistakes because of third party crafters that is what you get for relying on other people to do the real work for you. What did you expect to happen?

[krud]

Thats the worst argument of all! You knew **** well what you were getting into no one held a gun to your head and made you craft without knowing the results.

And people that complain about making mistakes because of third party crafters that is what you get for relying on other people to do the real work for you. What did you expect to happen?

Obviously, you were not around when shroud crafting was released. It all seems so easy now due to the trial and error of everyone who contributed crafting knowledge before you arrived on scene. Granted much of it was parsed on lammania, but still it was very much trial and error.

Where did you get your crafting info? Not in game, that's for sure. You had to rely on guides put together by other people (3rd party).

[Combat_Wombat]

Obviously, you were not around when shroud crafting was released. It all seems so easy now due to the trial and error of everyone who contributed crafting knowledge before you arrived on scene. Granted much of it was parsed on lammania, but still it was very much trial and error.

Where did you get your crafting info? Not in game, that's for sure. You had to rely on guides put together by other people (3rd party).

Not sure how your first point counters mine if that was its intention

As for your second yes I did use 3rd party crafters and information to craft all my GS items. Guess what I took my time and referenced multiple easily available sources including original research posts made on these forums and have never made a single mistake because of information I assumed was right and wasn't. It isn't hard or time consuming certainly less time consuming then getting the ingredients so you'd think people would do the same but they would rather be lazy and then come here and whine endlessly that Turbine needs to make sweeping changes to a long standing game mechanic because they couldn't take an extra 5 minutes of their time to care themselves.

[PopeJual]

Thats the worst argument of all! You knew **** well what you were getting into no one held a gun to your head and made you craft without knowing the results.

And people that complain about making mistakes because of third party crafters that is what you get for relying on other people to do the real work for you. What did you expect to happen?

So... it's our fault for not knowing what the crafting results are and we shouldn't rely on other people to find out what the crafting results are.

How should we find out the crafting results, then? Divine intervention?

...because having everyone make the mistakes in the process of learning themselves seems like a pretty good reason to have deconstruction.

[patang01]

Not sure how your first point counters mine if that was its intention

As for your second yes I did use 3rd party crafters and information to craft all my GS items. Guess what I took my time and referenced multiple easily available sources including original research posts made on these forums and have never made a single mistake because of information I assumed was right and wasn't. It isn't hard or time consuming certainly less time consuming then getting the ingredients so you'd think people would do the same but they would rather be lazy and then come here and whine endlessly that Turbine needs to make sweeping changes to a long standing game mechanic because they couldn't take an extra 5 minutes of their time to care themselves.

I still have yet to read a good argument against deconstruct. So far none can point to how it makes things 'easier'. No one can explain how it diminishes accomplishment or hurt player economy. And the closest argument to anything logical would be 'problematic' development and coding.

I'm sure that if Turbine can spend time creating temporary events such as Mabar and turn on autoban systems, they can also spend some time developing slowburn options like deconstuct that'll serve the community more than most of the TP store stuff. In fact I suggest all shroud mat (tier 1) should be removed from the store. Its not like there's a wider economy that can thrive on trading stuff like that.

[Combat_Wombat]

If you want to have turbine do something useful have them fully explain all past and future crafting systems. I am just fine with that. Hiding the operation of basic game mechanics is and always has been the wrong way to go about things. It seems all of your arguments for a decrafting system lead back to the fact that turbine purposely reveals nothing to the players. That in fact is the issue here so why don't we oh I don't know address that?

This thread should be about turbine publishing game mechanics not about how you all used the system knowing full well what was going on and now want someone to care that you got burned.

[zarious]

Not sure how your first point counters mine if that was its intention

As for your second yes I did use 3rd party crafters and information to craft all my GS items. Guess what I took my time and referenced multiple easily available sources including original research posts made on these forums and have never made a single mistake because of information I assumed was right and wasn't. It isn't hard or time consuming certainly less time consuming then getting the ingredients so you'd think people would do the same but they would rather be lazy and then come here and whine endlessly that Turbine needs to make sweeping changes to a long standing game mechanic because they couldn't take an extra 5 minutes of their time to care themselves.

I gotta disagree with you on some of your points CW. You and I both know people who have screwed up crafting green steel. I am not adverse to some kind of penalty, maybe losing all of the base ingredients, or losing 1/4 of the larges invested or some such, but turbine offers no "official" guidance on how recipes work, and offer no alternative if some one screws up either through their own negligence or through an inaccurate third party. If turbine offered an official crafting guide (that listed recipes ect) then yea I'd agree with you, but surely you're not suggesting that everyone figure out green steel crafting recipes on their own. I'm certain that you didn't get your green steel items through trial and error, and I'm equally certain that if you would have ran across an inaccurate shroud crafting planner, and mis-crafted an item, especially at the cost of multiple scales, you would have called for this as well.

Arguments which hold more water for me are arguments that this will adversely effect game play in some way, or in some way cheapen the value of green steel. But to say that players should just suck it up and deal if they make a mistake on a process that is as non-transparent as turbine has made green steel crafting is disingenuous IMHO.

[Missing_Minds]

This is a perfect example of what II was talking about, you know they used a planner themselves and have never figured anything out by themselves but the ego gets in the way of their uberness and lack of social skills... Blaming the player for use of resources? Really? Take a step outside, breath some real air, live your life, not ours.

I encourage you to live your life. YOUR choices after all. The player is the one that chose to use a resource. No once forced said player to do so. They made their choice.

Thank you for only proving my point.

[Drfirewater79]

there's also enough innacurate crafting planners out there. What kind of game makes it mandatory to visit 3rd party websites in order to complete a task properly? Third party sites that don't always get it right. Plenty of mistakes have been made by people using these supposedly "accurate resources". It has nothing to do with reading comprehension. If you are going to take that approach, then there should at a minimum be an in game method to acquire the proper recipes. Though with ddo's track record of handing out "clear" instructions I can see why they shy away from doing this.

for the record I haven't made any mistakes with crafting (yet), only because I waited so long to begin crafting, I let everyone else stumble upon the potential problems first..

Same here i didnt craft my first weapon for almost a year after shroud came out

[Missing_Minds]

I still have yet to read a good argument against deconstruct. So far none can point to how it makes things 'easier'.

If you haven't understood how it makes it easy, then you have already made up your mind to disagree with others. Nothing wrong with that.

The point in contention is the STYLE of deconstruction. What should it do? To date, the player base has NOT agreed on a singular method.

If you consider the more generous styles of decon, aka replacement of shards or returning of larges back, or even shards back, the only people it really helps are the vets that have stock piles already of gear they just aren't using any more. It really won't help the new players any where near as much.

[Drfirewater79]

2. There is evidence if we keep asking for something, they will come through for us (VoN/DQ flagging, two weapon slots, elite quest opening).

Sorry to say .. but it took them more then 4 years to answer that prayer ... they even said it was not doable for von which turned out to be a bold faced lie i guess cause they did it.

Personally i dont think anyone thinks waiting another 4 years for them to add a deconstruct greensteel system ... cause in that time you will have enough runs of shroud to outfit 15 characters in 100% greensteel/tod rings with extra items to swap in and out of.